Author Topic: WW-I Paint Colors? (Read 1268 times)

John Rist · « **on:** August 28, 2010, 09:41:11 AM »

What is the best way to decide what color is correct for a WW-I fighter such as the Eindecker III I am thinking of reserecting my Eindecker. It is covered with cream colored iron-on cloth. Original WW-I photos are all black and white. What say you all?

Paul Smith · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2010, 03:35:32 PM »

I think there's waaaaaayyy too much emphasis on "correct"s color, especially for pre-1940 subjects of which there is little or no color documentation in existence. Even if crude color photos are in existence, the actual shading is still suspect.

If a historic model is built to scale and made to fly, downgrading it for the shade of color is a cheap shot. I've build such models based on books with artists rendering. I don't see how a judge could honestly claim to "know" better.

How can a 60-year old judge in 2010 claim a pre-1930 subject is wrong?

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2010, 05:47:35 PM »

Paul, actually having judged scale, its VERY easy to say the color is wrong,,
The key here is the documentation provided for judging with the model. If the builder presents a color sample, ( which he should) then the judge is compelled to judge the model against the color sample provided, unless the contestant has provided something horribly suspect, then the judge is required to judge based upon what is provided for color and markings. In fact, a judge is required to judge based upon the documentation provided even if he KNOWS the documentation is flawed, he still cannot use personal knowledge to overide provided proof.

John Witt · « **Reply #3 on:** August 28, 2010, 06:51:08 PM »

WW1 subjects take a lot of research. Sometimes the color is best guess based on written descriptions of the material and processes used, then there is the application of artistic license in weathering, etc.

Remember, what we are doing here is constructing the illusion of the real object, in miniature. Wish I had a nickle for every discussion in the model world on the correct color for a whatever. Trains, planes, cars and boats, all the same.

Here is a website devoted to model color information, including a long discussion of the proper interior colors for various periods' and nations' aircraft. This is probably the best color reference on the web, and includes specific paint matches by manufacturer (Humbrol, Tamiya, etc) part number. This site focuses on plastic modelers, who in general are much more concerned about correctness than we (u-control) are.

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/

It's a great web site and a great reference. The authors have put in an incredible amount of work.

John Witt

John Rist · « **Reply #4 on:** August 28, 2010, 07:18:20 PM »

Quote from: John Witt on August 28, 2010, 06:51:08 PM

WW1 subjects take a lot of research. Sometimes the color is best guess based on written descriptions of the material and processes used, then there is the application of artistic license in weathering, etc.

Remember, what we are doing here is constructing the illusion of the real object, in miniature. Wish I had a nickle for every discussion in the model world on the correct color for a whatever. Trains, planes, cars and boats, all the same.

Here is a website devoted to model color information, including a long discussion of the proper interior colors for various periods' and nations' aircraft. This is probably the best color reference on the web, and includes specific paint matches by manufacturer (Humbrol, Tamiya, etc) part number. This site focuses on plastic modelers, who in general are much more concerned about correctness than we (u-control) are.

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/

It's a great web site and a great reference. The authors have put in an incredible amount of work.

John Witt

I took a quick look at the web site and found lots of WW-II photos but no WW-I. I have a CD with pictures of a Eindecker called;

Fokker E.III
In Detail
The San Diego replica, the Science Museum original and more!
Bilingual Edition with German
and English text
It has many photos of the San Diego replica. Based on these photos the covering on mine is close. If I decide to repair and show my Eindecker would photos of a replica be viable?
Also as I asked in another post - Just wondering

Would a message drop be a good maneuver for a WW-I style airplane such as a Eindecker? I have to believe it happened that a message was sent to the front line in this manner. I would guess a leather bag with a streamer.

John Witt · « **Reply #5 on:** August 28, 2010, 10:07:46 PM »

Here's the link to the page with the WWI color references:

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_germany.htm

One tactic is to model the reproduction. It counts as a full scale aircraft, but it has to have flown carrying a person, as I recall the rule.

John

John Rist · « **Reply #6 on:** August 28, 2010, 11:07:13 PM »

Is a flying 3/4 scale aircraft a leagal subject? It has flown and carried a pilot.

http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/FokkerE-III%7B3-4scale%7D.html

Bill Little · « **Reply #7 on:** August 28, 2010, 11:25:28 PM »

Quote from: John Rist on August 28, 2010, 11:07:13 PM

Is a flying 3/4 scale aircraft a leagal subject? It has flown and carried a pilot.

http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/FokkerE-III%7B3-4scale%7D.html

Hi John,

As long as a subject has flown carrying a human subject, you can do a scale model of it for contest work.

You can do a scale model of a *scale model*, as long as there has been a human on board when it has flown. A 3/4 *scale* airplane with a human pilot is technically a *scale model*.

Big Bear

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2010, 11:36:16 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on August 28, 2010, 11:25:28 PM

As long as a subject has flown carrying a human subject, you can do a scale model of it for contest work.

You can do a scale model of a *scale model*, as long as there has been a human on board when it has flown. A 3/4 *scale* airplane with a human pilot is technically a *scale model*.

Just remember that you are doing a model of the reproduction, not a model of the Fokker!

The other thing you can do is try to get in touch with the team that did the reproduction, to see if they can tell you where they got their data, and if maybe they'd like to share it. The worst that'll happen is that they'll say "no", the best that'll happen is that you'll be deluged with useful information.

Neville Legg · « **Reply #9 on:** August 29, 2010, 02:23:13 AM »

Have a look on www.shuttleworth.org/ they have a huge archive library and have an enquiry section!

Cheers Neville

John Witt · « **Reply #10 on:** August 29, 2010, 07:50:47 AM »

Tim's suggestion is a good one. I got a lot of information for my Jenny from the Flying Heritage Museum (fortunately close by me) that has a Jenny in flying condition and as well as a cooperative curator, Cory Graff. Incidentally Cory is the author of a number of excellent aviation reference books.

Even the National Air and Space museum has plans and other references available, thought the quality of plans can be uneven.

By the way, many early aircraft were covered in clear doped/varnished linen and not actually painted a color. Radiators were natural brass and copper, wood was varnished, some fittings painted. Lots of detail colors, My Jenny has seven different colors in the details, even though the overall finish is natural linen (Solartex).

The natural linen color changed to other hues pretty quickly as the technology developed at a very rapid pace. Another point to be careful of is that the orthochromatic film used in early photographs did not render color in black and white in the same way as modern pan films, particularly yellows and blues. For instance look at pictures of WWI US aircraft with the white star and red center on a blue background. It's fun to try to figure this stuff out, a bit of sleuthing for you!

Another good site for research is RCScalebuilder.com. Look at the Proctor Kits thread especially.

Be sure to retain some copies of whatever references you find so you can use them in your judging booklet.

John Witt

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #11 on:** September 03, 2010, 10:26:22 AM »

Quote from: John Witt on August 29, 2010, 07:50:47 AM

Tim's suggestion is a good one. I got a lot of information for my Jenny from the Flying Heritage Museum (fortunately close by me) that has a Jenny in flying condition and as well as a cooperative curator, Cory Graff. Incidentally Cory is the author of a number of excellent aviation reference books.

Even the National Air and Space museum has plans and other references available, thought the quality of plans can be uneven.

By the way, many early aircraft were covered in clear doped/varnished linen and not actually painted a color. Radiators were natural brass and copper, wood was varnished, some fittings painted. Lots of detail colors, My Jenny has seven different colors in the details, even though the overall finish is natural linen (Solartex).

The natural linen color changed to other hues pretty quickly as the technology developed at a very rapid pace. Another point to be careful of is that the orthochromatic film used in early photographs did not render color in black and white in the same way as modern pan films, particularly yellows and blues. For instance look at pictures of WWI US aircraft with the white star and red center on a blue background. It's fun to try to figure this stuff out, a bit of sleuthing for you!

Another good site for research is RCScalebuilder.com. Look at the Proctor Kits thread especially.

Be sure to retain some copies of whatever references you find so you can use them in your judging booklet.

John Witt

Quite correct on the natural finish for many of the early aircraft. Most of the early Taube pictures that i have seen were unpainted examples. But remember that varnish is not clear and then you have to try and simulate the Orange effect of brushed varnish on linin.

Author Topic: WW-I Paint Colors? (Read 1268 times)

John Rist

WW-I Paint Colors?

Paul Smith

Re: WW-I Paint Colors?

Mark Scarborough

Re: WW-I Paint Colors?

John Witt

Re: WW-I Paint Colors?

John Rist

Re: WW-I Paint Colors?

John Witt

Re: WW-I Paint Colors?

John Rist

Re: WW-I Paint Colors?

Bill Little

Re: WW-I Paint Colors?

Tim Wescott

Re: WW-I Paint Colors?

Neville Legg

Re: WW-I Paint Colors?

John Witt

Re: WW-I Paint Colors?

dennis lipsett

Re: WW-I Paint Colors?