News:


  • March 28, 2024, 02:27:00 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions  (Read 4222 times)

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1445
Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« on: March 07, 2017, 05:52:36 PM »
Many Many years ago (1969 maybe) I started building a Goldberg "Deluxe" R/C Shoestring for pylon racing. I finished the wing, but shortly afterward lost interest and put it aside.The wing is still in perfect shape and the rest of the kit is complete. Since I've gotten back into C/L and going to Brodaks in June, I'd like to have a "Scale" model to fly when not flying stunt.
I have many questions,here goes...

Since it is a shoulder wing model should the lead outs and bell crank go into the wing OR in the fuse with the lead outs below the wing?

Should I build it for "Fun Scale" or Sport Scale?

The box and plans say the plane is "Chartreuse"....is Sparky's Shoestring's color scheme matching an old washed out photo of a Chartreuse airplane for proof of color and markings? His doesn't look Chartreuse.

Have any of you built one of these for C/L flying?

Lastly, it has a semi symmetrical wing ....almost flat-bottomed. Do you think inverted flight would be possible? I'm certain it would fly inverted as an R/C model. Would say 65" lines allow me to get it on it's back?

Thanks Much...PhillySkip


Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 999
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2017, 08:30:36 PM »
This is a quote from an article on Rodney Kreimendahl by his son Bryan: "It’s design is considered a classic of the era and type of aircraft. Go to any EAA authority and they will know of this airplane. The colors are Cadillac Chartreuse and Chinese Red." There is a published photo taken from a Kodachrome transparency that shows a lot of green. Unfortunately I don't have a scan.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6824
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2017, 08:32:48 PM »
  The first 'String was painted with automotive paint that was for a late 50's Cadillac. Do a search on the C/L scale list and there was a photo of the proper year Caddy painted with that same color. I guess that when the color chip was made, they didn't know what else to call it. The way to think about it is to go by the correct factory name and don't focus on the word chartreuse. I don't think color in the photo was that washed out. It just doesn't match what most people think chartreuse looks like, I'm thinkin'.
    I would mount the bell crank in line with the center of the wing and run the leadoutsdown the wing. I have seen Sparky's model fly several times and it tracks straight. Scale ailerons that could be set at slight deflections would aid in trimming for level flight.
     For a scale presentation, I wouldn't fly the model inverted, because the real airplane was probably never flown inverted. It was a racer, pure and simple. The same goes for taxi, stop and taxi. The original airplane wasn't a sport flying machine. The airplanes are generally pushed out onto the runway, started, run ups done to check mags and such with wheels chocked or tail held down, then power put up for take off. Landings were generally a simple affair, where once the airplane was down and in a solid three point stance, the power was switch off and it coasted to a stop, and was recovered by a tow vehicle. They don't fly these airplanes like you would fly a Piper Cub. Flight options are limited and that can hurt scores in competition, if the judges are aware of the characteristics of the full size airplane.
    I'm a fan of the airplane and wouldn't mind having a scale and a stunt model of it. But for a scale subject, it just isn't the best for possible flight options.
   Just my 2 cents worth.
    Dan McEntee
  
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 999
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2017, 08:39:44 PM »
More from Bryan Kreimendahl: "The Cleveland air races prior to WWII were a BIG thing for aviation enthusiast. After the war a new class of racers was started called Goodyear racers or as we called them when I was a kid…midgets. There was a design team at Lockheed already starting to design a plane, which eventually became know as the Cosmic Winds. The group already had enough members so my dad started up a new group, which put in $1 per week.

My dad did the configuration and all the design work on the midget racer which…when my mother was asked what should it be named, came up with Shoestring, because it was built on a shoestring. Eventually the plane was built without an engine, the most expensive single item, but first flew in ’49 with an engine loaned by the first race pilot Bob Downey. My father would take my brother and I to the airport on many a Saturday."
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Fred Cronenwett

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2093
    • Lafayette Esquadrille
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2017, 08:53:01 PM »
Most pilots who fly in scale don't do the aerobatics because the models tend to be too heavy for aerobatics, but that is your choice on that matter. I have lost count on how many times I have been asked if my 14 lb, 96" span B-29 can do a loop, the answer is no.

you could build the model for fun or sport scale but keep in mind that if entered in sport scale the documentation and model will need to be at a higher caliber than fun scale in terms of the documentation package, color information, details and craftsmanship. Color is one of the hardest things to prove and a verbal description is too vague. Let's say I told you the airplane was yellow and you went to a color chart full a variety of yellow colors....did I mean cub yellow or the yellow the navy used? When you look at the civilian aircraft then it really gets murky and hard to prove. You really need a color photograph of the real aircraft and hope that the picture was printed correctly to get the color right. for the military aircraft you can prove them with FS color numbers. Another good source is the plastic models, sometimes they have an artist drawing of the paint scheme and what color was used on the full size aircraft.

Also there are more sport scale contests, most contests have fun scale but not all of them

as for the leadouts would have the wing removable and put the bellcrank directly below the wing in the fuselage, then the leadouts run below the wing. the traditional CL model in sport scale are built as one piece, in other words you can not remove the wing. In Radio Control they always remove the wing to get to the servos and other items.  Since I build larger than the average plane my wings always come off.

What is the wingspan of the kit?

Fred

Look at this video I did of an RC kit that I converted to CL scale using the 2.4 Ghz controls (the only way to go), install a normal 2-line bellcrank and you are good to go. the throttle and other features would be controlled with the 2.4 ghz controls.



This is the B-29 I am talking about





Fred Cronenwett
AMA CLSCALE7 - CL Scale
Model Aviation CL Scale columnist

Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 999
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2017, 09:08:06 PM »
Color print published in the April 1998 issue of Flight Journal. Bear in mind that Shoestring in its original form no longer exists. Historical documents and photos are the best references available. The Scale Rules provide for a variety of options for documenting the color and markings:

7.1.1.4.1.
For Color, any and all of the following means of proof can be used:
a. Color chips by the Federal Standard for government procured aircraft or other source, or verified paint samples.
b. Photograph, or photographs, with the understanding that lighting conditions can have a significant effect on color in the photograph.
c. Pictorial representation such as “Profile’’ and similar types of color paintings in three-view form, or published color painting or drawing.
d. Notes, details and diagrams on three-view.
e. A detailed written description from a reliable source.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1445
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2017, 09:48:44 PM »
Thanks for the info .I'll try to get my documentation in order before proceeding. PhillySkip

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6824
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2017, 10:07:21 PM »
  If you don't like the color, I believe that airplane had several different owners and color schemes, and several more were built later on. You might want to research that. That part can be the most interesting, fun, and easiest part of the project!
   Good luck with it,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1445
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2017, 05:42:36 AM »
The wing span is 54". After studying the plans and looking at some three views, this model is probably way less scale in outline than say Sparky's model.....it's still a good looking model and one worth finishing. I'll look into other "versions" of the Shoestring with colors and markings that are more easily provable with less debate and maybe more modern pictures available. Thanks,PhillySkip

Online Paul Smith

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5793
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2017, 06:32:17 AM »
The UP side of the Shoestring is that you won't be killed by the no-gear and no-flap PENALTIES that now apply to most existing models.

One of the writers mentioned the "un-realism" of taxiing and several other required maneuvers.  This is equally true of ALL Great War (WWI) subjects.  But they still do them and get full marks.

You would have better chance of building this model for Sport Scale.  Fun Scale is dominated by RTF plastic toys that get an automatic 10 static points.  You are better off testing your building skills against other modelers.  You won't beat or even tie professional factory engineers.
Paul Smith

Offline Avaiojet

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7468
  • Just here for the fun of it also.
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2017, 06:46:15 AM »
Skip,

I have the Shoestring graphics. Or, the art could be used to make paint masks.

Nice airplane to model.

CB
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
  • AMA 32529
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2017, 07:33:24 AM »
Skip,
The Goldberg kit is, I agree, not as scale as the Brodak kit can be. It's all in the documentation vs model.
I assume you built the wing to the short configuration in the kit, I'm not sure how that outline and measurement scales out to any drawings but should be closer than the long wing in the kit. The real airplane had no dihedral.
There is no controversy about the color, Kreimendahl was quoted, his wife was quoted and son was quoted through the years, it was 1949 Cadillac Chartreuse with Chinese Red trim, markings dependent on which year, race, etc . Cadillacs are painted this color in classic car restos, just posted one in the last 12 months in this forum. No problem.
If you look through the airplane's history,  it was this color until it was painted apple green in the early 60s, then in light blue and orange Gulf colors in 1966 like a Ford GT40,  or then had its wing changed to a high aspect Stockbarger design, and then to its Circus Circus colors in 1977. It exists on display in the San Diego Aerospace Museum in this final paint scheme and configuration, the original wing is on a different fuselage painted apple green in the Planes of Fame/Air Museum in Chino, CA.
I'd build the Goldberg kit for RC flying myself, buy and build a Brodak kit for Sport Scale but there is nothing wrong with your plan at all. Keep in mind that what ever drawing you choose for your docs you shape the model that way. I used blow ups of my docs to draw shapes of wing, tail, fin, etc right on the model part and sawed them out accordingly.
If you find your decal sheet, use it as a comparison guide to all fonts when making your markings, modern decal makers make wrong font choices often and it's seen on models and full sized airplane restos all of the time.
Sounds like fun.
Chris...

Offline Avaiojet

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7468
  • Just here for the fun of it also.
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2017, 08:21:20 AM »
Quote
If you find your decal sheet, use it as a comparison guide to all fonts when making your markings, modern decal makers make wrong font choices often and it's seen on models and full sized airplane restos all of the time.

Chris,

You're absolutely correct. You could take that a step further. Some decal sheets are far from accurate also.

Most of my scale references and art come from actual photos of aircraft.

"I have many books." A line from Romancing the Stone.

CB
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Chris Fretz

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2017, 02:26:33 PM »
I built that exact same model last winter.  I won Beginner Stunt at Brodak's with it!
Formerly known as #Liner
AMA 1104207
Advanced

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1445
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2017, 07:12:59 PM »
Paul-I was thinking about the taxiing thing and I agree with you .As I've seen many WW1 scale models taxiing.Also,should I build it,it would be for Sport Scale and just have fun with it.I'm not into Toys R Us models.

Charles-Should I proceed with the project I'll contact you when I'm ready for stencils

Chris Mc-I viewed the apple green scheme and like the original best. Not going to buy the Brodak Shoestring,got waaay too many kits now! If I don't proceed with it as a C/L project I will finish it as it was intended, for R/C. It's still a nice model. BTW the wing I built is full span 54",with 2.75 inches of total dihedral.

Chris F.- Did you alter the airfoil any? It's really not a stunt type wing.Semi Symetrical, almost flat bottomed. How did she fly inverted?

Offline Chris Fretz

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2017, 02:58:31 AM »
Paul-I was thinking about the taxiing thing and I agree with you .As I've seen many WW1 scale models taxiing.Also,should I build it,it would be for Sport Scale and just have fun with it.I'm not into Toys R Us models.

Charles-Should I proceed with the project I'll contact you when I'm ready for stencils

Chris Mc-I viewed the apple green scheme and like the original best. Not going to buy the Brodak Shoestring,got waaay too many kits now! If I don't proceed with it as a C/L project I will finish it as it was intended, for R/C. It's still a nice model. BTW the wing I built is full span 54",with 2.75 inches of total dihedral.

Chris F.- Did you alter the airfoil any? It's really not a stunt type wing.Semi Symetrical, almost flat bottomed. How did she fly inverted?
Skip, I got the kit for $10 so I just figured I'd turn it into a C/L airplane. Mine is pretty heavy so it's like flying a brick with an engine. I made new ribs so the wing would be symetrical. I just took 2 ribs and flipped one, traced it then cut all new ones. I thought it flew pretty darn good inverted. If I would of built it about 20oz lighter it would of been a nice airplane.
Formerly known as #Liner
AMA 1104207
Advanced

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1445
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2017, 06:22:17 AM »
Thanks for sharing! PhillySkip

Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 999
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2017, 07:31:49 AM »
Paul-I was thinking about the taxiing thing and I agree with you .As I've seen many WW1 scale models taxiing.Also,should I build it,it would be for Sport Scale and just have fun with it.I'm not into Toys R Us models.

The taxi issue could use some clarification. The racers are quite able to taxi. It is true that at most of the race meets the planes were towed but that was for safety considerations and expediency. If you read the bottom of the last paragraph on page 1 of the 1949 Rules you will see that the ability to taxi was a specific requirement. During the 1950s there were 27 race meets for the Midgets and it was not uncommon for planes to be flown to the races from their home base. In some cases this required multiple stops en route for gas. So taxiing was a necessity. Even at Reno the planes have to clear the active runway and taxi to the designated area where they can be recovered by the crews.

And for what it's worth, the modern IF1 rules are still based on the same rules package.
 http://www.if1airracing.com/images/Documents/IF1_Technical_Rules_Rev2011.pdf
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
  • AMA 32529
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2017, 02:59:26 PM »
So true, Bill. Thanks for the notes and rules copies.
Ballerina was used as a competition aerobatic airplane in England in the 50's and 60's and Minnow was a commuter plane for a SoCal pilot until it was turned into the Dewey bird there no longer Minnow. The exaggeration by Mr. Smith is noted often
Chris...

Offline Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3338
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2017, 04:45:33 PM »
Paul-I was thinking about the taxiing thing and I agree with you .As I've seen many WW1 scale models taxiing.Also,should I build it,it would be for Sport Scale and just have fun with it.I'm not into Toys R Us models.

Charles-Should I proceed with the project I'll contact you when I'm ready for stencils

Chris Mc-I viewed the apple green scheme and like the original best. Not going to buy the Brodak Shoestring,got waaay too many kits now! If I don't proceed with it as a C/L project I will finish it as it was intended, for R/C. It's still a nice model. BTW the wing I built is full span 54",with 2.75 inches of total dihedral.

Chris F.- Did you alter the airfoil any? It's really not a stunt type wing.Semi Symetrical, almost flat bottomed. How did she fly inverted?

The only dihedral in the wing of the full size Shoestring was in the wing section taper at the tip.  The top of the wing was flat.

There are 3-views of several versions of the Shoestring in the Charles Mendanhall book The Air Racer.  

The color scheme for the Berkeley kit of the Shoestring was Chartreuse and Red.  From the Berkeley plans, "Chartreuse can be mixed from 1 part of fuelproof Cessna green to 6 parts of fuelproof Cub yellow."   I think this was based on Aerogloss colors from that period.  (Plans have a 1952 copyright.)

There was a Shoestring built with an interesting paint scheme called the Yellow Jacket featured in an Air Progress magazine.  All gloss yellow and black.  (This is shown in the Mendanhall book mentioned above.)

Keith

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1445
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2017, 01:31:00 PM »
Keith thanks for adding that info to the discussion. At present I'm leaning toward just finishing the model as it was intended for R/C. The outline of the wing  and other aspects are too far off to have a competitive Sport Scale model IMHO......Cheers,PhillySkip

Offline Fred Cronenwett

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2093
    • Lafayette Esquadrille
Re: Goldberg R/C Shoestring for "Fun Scale" a few questions
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2017, 06:31:00 PM »
I can show you how to outfit the plane so it can be flown as a RC or CL model with a 5 minute conversion. I have a Piper Cub that can be flown as an RC model or CL model. Easy to do...

The model as an elevator servo and a bellcrank, aileron servos, throttle servo, rudder servo and uses 2.4 Ghz for throttle for CL or RC mode. I just move the pushrods around so that the elevator is controlled with the servo or the bellcrank. Also have a wing tip box to alter the lateral balance. In your case the leadout guide could be kept  in place for RC or CL mode.

Fred
Fred Cronenwett
AMA CLSCALE7 - CL Scale
Model Aviation CL Scale columnist


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here