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Author Topic: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers  (Read 2302 times)

Offline Avaiojet

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Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« on: October 07, 2010, 09:02:55 PM »
Anyone have Gee Bee's or Golden Era Racers on wires? Can be profile.

My interest is troublshooting, balance, takeoffs. the usual.

Charles
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If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2010, 09:34:06 PM »
I have a Gee Bee semi scale stunter,,
what are you after, its not really clear to me what you are looking for?
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 09:41:46 PM »
There's lots of different Gee Bee's.  Flying Models had a Weddel-Williams profile about 20 years ago, with no reported problems -- but the Weddel-Williams had a pretty sane layout compared to some of the air racers out there.
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Offline chuck snyder

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2010, 04:37:20 PM »
Several of us in the Cincinnati area tried to pormote Golden Age racing several years ago--both full body and profile. There were also some guys in Massachusetts that originated it. Had a couple contests in Huntersville, NC. I have a photo with over 20 models at a contest in Cincinnati. Used 40's with 11" props and torque was a problem. We used 36" wingspan. I built two Mew Gulls; one profile and one full body. The full body model used a ST 40 rear rotor set up to run in reverse to eliminate the torque problem (rolling in on the lines). My Mew Gulls, and most of the other models had the gear moved forward due to nosing over. I also have a Napier Heston built by Jim Moore who passed away three years ago. I don't recall anything special about CG. My Mew Gulls groove very nicely. The last time we flew them I provided three models at the Brodak event. Lots of fun for three old guys to fly at once. One of the Gee Bees built is on permanent display at the local Jr High--team name is Aviators.
Chuck

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2010, 06:06:43 PM »
I'm downsizing.

Going from R/C back to my roots. Well, my roots are really rubber bands and just through the thing.

Anyway, I built this 1/5 Gee Bee Z Paige Aviation kit for R/C. This model will now be converted to CL.

I did get some suggestions over on RCU, can I say that, but the CL section gets little visiters.

I am waiting on a three line bellcrank? I hope. There are some issues I have to iron out. CL, CG, exit point on wings for adjustible line tenson. Other things might come up.

Be nice to find someone with the Paige Gee Gee Z, on lines.

Here's the model. Built for R/C with working ailerons. Glue um or use um for flaps?

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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2010, 08:27:28 PM »
One thing you will run into with this model is that the vertical CG is going to be way above the wingtip, this will cause the model to fly with the wings tilted  all the time. IOW upright,the wings would be tilted outboard down, inverted outboard up ( very very bad scenario) SOME correction could be force upon the model with some static aileron input but thats not a perfect situation since that will vary with airspeed. The other option is to put a standoff on the wingtip, with the leadouts~bellcrank exiting from the fuse  somewhere midship vertically. This would allow the airframe to fly more correctly ..
I have read of some scale guys coupling the ailerons to deflect to input outboard roll under certain flight conditions,, as in slow flight.
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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AMA 842137

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2010, 09:32:25 PM »
Guess the real scale guys have not seen the pics of some beautiful wood work.  Mount the bellcrank up in the what looks like would be the balance point if you held the leadots.  Make a leadout guide at the tip that is adjustable and also removable for scale judging if you plan on flying scale.  Leadouts thru the side of the fuse is not that bad if done properly.  Yes, some guys/gals use the ailerons to help the plane fly level.   I see the wing is removable and that makes it even better for doing the bellcrank mount and throttle linkage.  Make sure the bellcrank mount will with stand a pull test using the fuselage and not the wing. 

Remember the Midwest ME-109 kit semi scale they used to have years ago.  I built the kit for radio and copied the parts for a control line version that I still have.  It is in the rafters of the shop.  Just need to get my documentation straight and clean it up.  Yes wing is removable on it.   H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline john vlna

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2010, 09:16:24 AM »
Aviaojet
Charlie Bauer AMA District IV VP is the guy to talk to, I have seen his Gee Bee fly and the only issue was ground handling, but he said it was just like the real one. It was a large one like yours.
By the way the models Chuck is talking about were a handful to fly, a lot of fun though
John

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2010, 02:35:16 PM »
Hey Charles,
Sounds like all of the ideas that you got on RCU are the same ones given to you here on Stunthangar. Must be time to mount that bellcrank and make that leadout guide.
Clunk tanks are perfect for C/L too.
Lock the tailwheel so that it doesn't turn in or out on you when taxiing.
Use 60 foot , .018 lines. Go to the Brodak site and order a three line bellcrank and handle, I'd use the suspended bellcrank beneath a ply plate epoxied into the fuselage a little less than half way up, make sure it's locked in by structure so you can survive the hideously high load pull tests of C/L Scale.
If you use a gas engine, make sure that the carb is set up to run with cf pushing all of the fuel to outboard.
If you haven't been flying C/L for a while, go find a trainer and practice about 100 flights doing loops and wingovers and stuff.
Chris...

P.S. Curious, you said you make graphics but never did make that Bridi oval for me (you said my provided art work was not sufficient), I had it done by a nice lady in New Mexico that owns Control Line Central Hobbies. Are you making any stuff, or not?

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 06:10:43 PM »
Chris,

Quote
Sounds like all of the ideas that you got on RCU are the same ones given to you here on Stunthangar.

Yes, I do believe RCU CL guys are in this site.

Quote
Must be time to mount that bellcrank and make that leadout guide.

Yes, interesting observation. Nice to see there's interest and that you took a good look. Thank you.

Quote
Lock the tail wheel so that it doesn't turn in or out on you when taxiing.

The tail wheel is a skid, as was scale.

Quote
order a three line bellcrank and handle, I'd use the suspended bellcrank beneath a ply plate epoxied into the fuselage a little less than half way up, make sure it's locked in by structure so you can survive the hideously high load pull tests of C/L Scale.

I traded graphics for a couple of "hanging" belcranks. I'm waiting for them. I have a three line handle. 

Quote
If you use a gas engine, make sure that the carb is set up to run with cf pushing all of the fuel to outboard.


The model has been set up for an OS 80 2S. I don't have the ambition to make a change. Although a small gasser would be nice, no clean up with gas. $$$$ also.

Quote
If you haven't been flying C/L for a while, go find a trainer and practice about 100 flights doing loops and wing overs and stuff.


Cleaver and great advice. I have a ringmaster and a magician.

The graphics. I did go on line looking for their logo. All I could find was a bitmap jpeg with poor resolution. Not suitable for reproduction.

There are some graphics people with advantages. Like some or their parents own a hobby shop. This allows easy access to Brand logos and art.

I will say this, for what I specialize in, which is custom scale graphics, I offer great stuff. I see many errors and work that could be better. Many have copied my work. I know of one graphics guy who actually purchased my Mr. Mulligan set. I'm honored to be ripped off. I thimnk?

Quote
Charlie Bauer AMA District IV VP is the guy to talk to, I have seen his Gee Bee fly.

What Gee Bee does he have? Size? Mine is only 55" in span.

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Dave Evar

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2010, 03:09:02 PM »
Dec '79 AMA published plan #282, Granger Williams 2" scale Gee Bee Z.
I bought blue print plans from Vern Clemons and built one in 1981.
Two firsts and one second in static shows.  Or was it 2 seconds and 1 first?
Never flew it.  Remnants till exist.  So do a couple of crummy pics.

Correction:  Plans source is Vern Clements.  His drawings were used
in the process of building the Delmar Benjamen Gee Bee R-2.

         Dave

« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 12:28:46 PM by Dave Evar »
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Offline Mike Lauerman

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2010, 09:21:05 AM »
Dec '79 AMA published plan #282, Granger Williams 2" scale Gee Bee Z.
I bought blue print plans from Vern Clemons and built one in 1981.
Two firsts and one second in static shows.  Or was it 2 seconds and 1 first?
Never flew it.  Remnants till exist.  So do a couple of crummy pics.

Correction:  Plans source is Vern Clements.  His drawings were used
in the process of building the Delmar Benjamen Gee Bee R-2.

         Dave



Vern Clements X2!!! I found Vern in a copy of Model Airplane News in 1962. (Vern's Gee Bee R1 (2"=1ft. scale) had won the 1961 Scale Nats. I had built a couple of Gee Bees from old plans, but they had terminal balance issues, being so close-coupled and FAST! (by the time I discovered there was a problem, they were nose-deep in the grass) These early ones were smaller, wingspans of 18"-24"...disaster waiting to happen.
I called Vern on the telephone, in Caldwell. He was very helpful, sent me the plan, and told me to call back with any questions.
The plane built beautifully, I powered it with a Veco .45. Flew it at Del Mar High school in '76, it took off from the grass, turned in at full throttle, and came right over my head as I ducked...It went in nose first, absolute wreck. Pictures were to be taken that day...Drat!
I have since built a profile, Super Tigre .35 powered, using a Sterling Mr. Mulligan wing, with the correct 'Y' airfoil. (!)
I plan on doing another Clements Gee Bee R1, only this time using one of our resident artisans for laser cutting.
The 'Z' looks to be more stable with its layout, but there's nothing like an R-1.

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2010, 11:38:49 AM »
Here is a shot that I took many years ago....at an Aug. 1964 contest?  Albany Oregon.
After checking my slide files.....I couldn't have taken this at the nationals. My first nationals was at the Calif. 67 Nationals????
(After checking my slide filed....What an UNPLEASANT SURPRIZZZZZZZZZZZZZEEE!  n~
Gee..SEE WHUT HAPPENS WHEN MY OLD DEMENTED BRAIN'S LONG TERM MEMORY CELLS BEGIN TO FADE!
neva nuff' GeeBee's
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 01:43:29 PM by Shultzie »
Don Shultz

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2010, 05:56:20 PM »
Don,

GREAT ART!

You are an incredable talent!

That Gee Bee? Was it CL? Did you see it fly?

Thanks for both photos. Got others of your work?

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2010, 11:47:24 AM »
Don,

GREAT ART!

You are an incredable talent!

That Gee Bee? Was it CL? Did you see it fly?

Thanks for both photos. Got others of your work?

Charles
Yes! If my demented memory is correct...  (WHICH AFTER CHECKING THE SLIDE MOUNT WHICH IS MARKED AUG. 1964!!! I thought this beautiful GeeBee was  a control line  model was built and flown by Scott Newkirk from Canada?
 I took that photo on the way to some CLPA stunt staging area. I missed seeing his flight. However I hear that he unfortunately the model tipped up on its nose and the high wind flipped it over on it back.

At Boeing before I retired in 2004...I used to get requests for my "loonie toons" especially lots of fun to draw these strange aircraft from the early aviation days of the bold-brave-or just plain fool hearty pilots.
Below are a few retirement party time picturethat I have posted on this forum over the past.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 01:45:44 PM by Shultzie »
Don Shultz

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2010, 08:13:13 PM »
Schultzie, you are priceless. H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2010, 08:48:41 PM »
Schultzie, you are priceless. H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^

Speaking of Price Less....I have always loved Howard Ike "Miss Chevy" since the day I first laid my demented eye balls onto Bob Emmett's amazingly beautiful and beautiful flying CLPA model...many years ago.
What a stunning model this would make that also I bet would be a wonderful flying scale CL model...Huh?
Don Shultz

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2010, 02:53:11 PM »
Anyone have Gee Bee's or Golden Era Racers on wires? Can be profile.

My interest is troublshooting, balance, takeoffs. the usual.

Charles

Morn. Charles!!!
Found this available at the Seattle Museum of Flight gift shop...All you would have to do is add a  good bellcrank, strong set of lines...and a enough engine power ta pull it?
Hummm?
GUESS IT MIGHT BE A TAD MORE DIFFICULT TO GET BY THE BOM RULE? LL~ H^^
Don Shultz

Offline Thomas Wilk

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2010, 04:43:19 PM »
I have the full size plans for this kiddie rider.
I paid $25 for them about 15 years ago.

They are for sale.

Tom Wilk

Online John Rist

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2010, 07:32:50 PM »
Morn. Charles!!!
Found this available at the Seattle Museum of Flight gift shop...All you would have to do is add a  good bellcrank, strong set of lines...and a enough engine power ta pull it?
Hummm?
GUESS IT MIGHT BE A TAD MORE DIFFICULT TO GET BY THE BOM RULE? LL~ H^^

So fly it in Fun Scale  Their is no BOM rule.   LL~  LL~  LL~
John Rist
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Offline clscale7

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2010, 10:31:55 AM »
I have flown the Howard Pete and a friends Gee Bee and both of them required the throttle to be applied slowly on takeoff roll with full up elevator to keep the nose from pitching over. Once the model had enough ground speed the elevator would go to nueutral and the tail would rise and take off normally. 

But If I held nuetral elevator and applied the power too quickly the tail would come up and then nose over.
Fred Cronenwett
CL scale

Online John Rist

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2010, 01:18:47 PM »
I have flown the Howard Pete and a friends Gee Bee and both of them required the throttle to be applied slowly on takeoff roll with full up elevator to keep the nose from pitching over. Once the model had enough ground speed the elevator would go to nueutral and the tail would rise and take off normally. 

But If I held nuetral elevator and applied the power too quickly the tail would come up and then nose over.

From what I have read - Just like the real one.
John Rist
AMA 56277

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2010, 09:50:29 PM »
From what I have read - Just like the real one.

Another factor that can PUCKA YER SPHINKTER-TINKTER' IS APPLYING TOO MUCH POWER FOR TAKE OFF...
Years ago 1963(...When pitting and lauching  a beautiful crafted small wing spanned control line Russian Yak fighter...that sported a K&B 45 powered engine up front.)
 After a beautifully successful take off roll had begun...the young modeler from Canada as soon as that model broke ground--------  (Although I can't remember his name) SADLY, I WILL NEVER FORGET THE SHOCK AND PAIN  %^seeing that  beautiful little OVER POWERED model barrell roll up the lines toward the pilot.
Guess you might say that was a horrific way to illustrate the powe of Gyroscopic Procession of a propeller when WAAAAY TO MUCH "PETAL TO THE METAL is applied too quickly."
That model was a total loss that he had spent almost 2 years building.
Don Shultz

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2010, 09:36:45 AM »
From the AVweb site...
another Beautiful Gee Bee shot!

And a Calender Shot for Jan
Don Shultz

Offline Pat Johnston

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Re: Gee Bee's on wires, Or other Golden Era Racers
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2010, 12:37:32 PM »
If you need a 57" Gee Bee R-2, I designed one which was published in MA in the mid 90's.  This is a profile stunt/scale plane.  It has about 585 squares, weighs in the 55-60 ounce range and has a really big fuselage.  I flew it in both stunt and profile scale.  It pounded them for the flying points in scale.  Tolerable for static points.  Probably due to the wing being too thick and lack of details like flying wires, etc.
If you like the Gee Bee QED, I also designed another profile stunt/scale version which is very scale-like and flies stunt quite well enough to have won several expert profile contests in the Northwest.  A very cool plane, but about half as deep as the R-2.  I also have another full bodied QED for a 51-60 in about a 630 inch version.  All stringer fuselage behind the customary sheeting.  A real cutie on paper.  I have cut laser parts for that, as I recall.
How's that for something for the Gee Bee class?
Pat Johnston
Stunt/scale design
Skunk Works


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