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Author Topic: Builder of the model?  (Read 2807 times)

Offline Hemi Steve

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Builder of the model?
« on: April 11, 2021, 06:34:01 AM »
Recently, a local "expert" opined that my Authentic Scale entry in the upcoming Nats will be disqualified due to the "builder of the model" rule. He believes that because the model has a fiberglass fuselage.  My model does have a fiberglass fuselage which I got as a set of un-joined left and right fuselage halves and an un-joined cowl. There wasn't any internal structure or cockpit and no molded in surface details all of which I had to do during the construction and finishing.  He maintains that the fiberglass parts represents too much prefabrication.  I've easily got more than 1000 man hours in the model. The labor savings from the fiberglass parts represents a very small fraction of the total effort.  Are the fiberglass parts a disqualifier for Authentic Scale?

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2021, 07:07:48 AM »
  I don't have an answer to your question, but the AMA rule book should, or find some one on the scale contest board to answer the question. The AMA web site is modelaircraft.org and follow your nose there. Might even be a good idea to d own load anything that may be of interest to you or necessary for you to compete.
  Type at you later, and good luck!
    Dan McEntee
 
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2021, 07:54:33 AM »
Recently, a local "expert" opined that my Authentic Scale entry in the upcoming Nats will be disqualified due to the "builder of the model" rule. He believes that because the model has a fiberglass fuselage.  My model does have a fiberglass fuselage which I got as a set of un-joined left and right fuselage halves and an un-joined cowl. There wasn't any internal structure or cockpit and no molded in surface details all of which I had to do during the construction and finishing.  He maintains that the fiberglass parts represents too much prefabrication.  I've easily got more than 1000 man hours in the model. The labor savings from the fiberglass parts represents a very small fraction of the total effort.  Are the fiberglass parts a disqualifier for Authentic Scale?

Maybe the guy just has a thing for the BOM rule because he knows modelers have been lying about it for decades.

Even paint and finish.

I'd like to see photos of this model, many, including myself have a serious interest in scale.

1000 hours, it must be outstanding.

CB
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Online Paul Smith

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2021, 08:50:56 AM »
There are sure a lot of shades of gray between the WHITE of a true product of your own labor and the BLACK of a factory-made "model" which is perfect in every detail but not the modelers work.

The gods of the rule have added "Team Scale" so one modeler can build the model and have it flown by a pilot, but this is still the work of a modeler, not a factory.

I would say that a fibreglass fuselage is typical of the kit of today and within the scope of the rule.  Other factory parts such as canopies, wheels, and engine cowls are routinely accepted, as well a props not carved by the contestant.

Paul Smith

Offline chuck snyder

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2021, 10:09:47 AM »
Steve,
It would have been a legitimate entry to me when I ran C/L scale at the Nats several years ago.
Chuck

Online Will Hinton

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2021, 12:07:39 PM »
As a scale judge I feel the model is well within the scope of the BOM.  Just try to join those fuse' halves up without a lot of fussing and grumbling.  sheesh, that's a lot of nasty possibilities, I know, because I once made a couple of molded fiberglass fuse sides and when I started to join them, I wondered what in the world I was thinking!
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2021, 01:05:39 PM »
  Definition of "expert" : noun, A former drip under pressure!

   I would ask the guy to show you the rule in HIS rule book!

  Even if it's a glass fuselage, you still have to build it and add the detail. Like it has been mentioned already, typical for one of today's kits.

  Type at you later,
      Dan McEntee
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2021, 01:55:54 PM »
they have been using B/V fiberglass bodys for years in R/C Scale .if a Bob Hunt fully sheeted wing (which i have no problem with) is legal than i see no problem with a fiberglass body .i am sure a couple of the higher ups will jump in here before too long and make it official S?P
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 08:49:32 AM by bob whitney »
rad racer

Offline Hemi Steve

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2021, 06:06:33 AM »
Thanks guys....I feel much better now.
Steve

Online Paul Smith

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2021, 10:33:44 AM »
they have been using B/V fiberglass bodys for years in R/C Scale .if a Bob Hunt fully sheeted wing (which i have no problem with) is legal than i see no problem with a fiberglass body .i am sure a couple of the higher ups will jump in here before too long and make it official S?P

But then Stunt and Scale are two different categories. 
Stunt is primarily about flying and (sometimes) maybe 2% about appearance.
Scale is all about building a scale model that flys.
Paul Smith

Offline katana

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2021, 02:22:24 PM »
But then Stunt and Scale are two different categories. 
Stunt is primarily about flying and (sometimes) maybe 2% about appearance.
Scale is all about building a scale model that flys.

Who said anything about 'Stunt'? The OP has build a 1000 hr Scale model!

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2021, 04:06:44 PM »
Please refer to the attachment. It is the page of interest from the General Competition Regulations.

Various levels of prefabrication have been the norm in kits since the beginning of time. Fiberglass molded parts are used throughout the whole competition spectrum. Besides, who is to say that a fiberglass part is any different than, say, the carved balsa fuselage parts in a Consolidated Avenger.

I was the C/L Scale ED in 2017. What you were told is not even worth what it cost you.
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2021, 04:35:11 PM »
Please refer to the attachment. It is the page of interest from the General Competition Regulations.

Various levels of prefabrication have been the norm in kits since the beginning of time. Fiberglass molded parts are used throughout the whole competition spectrum. Besides, who is to say that a fiberglass part is any different than, say, the carved balsa fuselage parts in a Consolidated Avenger.

I was the C/L Scale ED in 2017. What you were told is not even worth what it cost you.

Hi Bob,

Good post. 

The final statement in the AMA General Regulations on the BOM states that "The builder-of-the-model rule applies to every AMA event unless specifically noted otherwise in the rules in that event."  Indeed, the Control Line Scale rules has a paragraph regarding the BOM that essentially overides the AMA General Regulations BOM rule.  Although either of these rules may leave room for interpretation, there is really little or no difference between the General BOM rule and the CL  Scale rule.

As you explained, fiberglass molded parts have been accepted throughout the competition spectrum for those events governed by the AMA General rules as well as at least one other event that has its own BOM requirements.  To interpret the CL Scale rule to prohibit a preformed fiberglass fuselage (or carbon or whatever) would be an extreme stretch of the CL Scale specific BOM rule.  If an Event/Contest Director chooses to impose such an interpretation, that should be clearly explained in the contest announcement.

Whoever wants to come up with that kind of interpretation needs to understand that everything needs to be done to promote the event, not come up with a stretched interpretation that will tend to limit participation.

Keith


Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2021, 05:58:00 PM »
Good catch Keith. I was pressed for time and should have referenced the Scale specific version.

What Steve has done is well within the letter and intent of the Scale BOM regulation. There are literally decades of precedence for accepting the level of prefabrication in his project.

Just for reference take a look at the attached pics. The Consolidated Avenger used machine carved fuselage shells. Steve used fiberglass molded shells. I see no difference whatsoever as it relates to the degree of completion of the model. Only the technology is different. In their day Avengers were entered in Scale many times. Any competent CD should have a good understanding of what has gone before.

#15 is a Consolidated kit that took 2nd in Senior C/L Scale at either the 1959 or 1960 NATS. The page was scanned from the August 1960 American Modeler.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2021, 06:51:32 PM »
    Kit manufacturers have been trying to make things easier for model builders since the first model airplane kit!! Top Flite I think was an innovator here with the molded fuselage shells and such, as good or bad as they may have been, and with the machined leading and trailing edges. I remember reading complaints in old magazines complaining about the use of machined parts and the BOM rule. Berkeley was another with machined balsa parts. While handy, they were far, far from being a sure thing for a trophy at the NATS!!
   Type at you later,
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2021, 06:58:00 PM »
Several Berkeley kits featured the same type of carved balsa blocks for the fuselage and nacelles.  Such "prefabrication of individual parts" has historically been accepted as meeting the BOM rule for CL Scale.  As Bob Heywood explained, these carved blocks are no different than a builder starting with molded fuselage shells.

Keith

Offline Hemi Steve

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2021, 04:12:50 PM »
Bob
Wow, I had one of those Consolidated kits back in the late 50's.  The machined fuselage shells were really crude and I did not do the model justice when I built it as a kid.  The construction was very much like the Jim Walker Fireball as I recall.  Geez...I'm dating myself!

Steve

Offline chuck snyder

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2021, 04:21:53 PM »
Speaking of big chunks of balsa, I have a Consolidated Dark Shark and a Berkeley SBD kit in my nostalgia stash. Built both when I was a kid.
Chuck

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2021, 06:54:13 PM »
From the supplied rules the take away for me is that the build must require 'skill'.
Assembly from complete prefabrication being classed as unskilled.
Was the fuselage 'completely' prefabricated? No, it was in two halves.
Did it take skill to compete?
Yes, insert story detailing such.
End of argument.
Chris.
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Offline Hemi Steve

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2021, 06:12:49 AM »
A few posts back Aviojet asked for pictures.  The model is covered with masking tape and painting stencils at the moment but I have what might be a better way to showcase the effort I have expended to prepare this model.  A little background first.  About 7 years ago I was asked to write a "how to" article for my clubs newsletter.  I created a banner naming the article "Some Assembly Required". The article was well received and since then I think I've done more than 70  articles I think.  When I decided to fly in the Scale Nationals I made the further decision to repurpose an R/C model for the competition.  Years ago I scratch built (except for the glass fuselage shells) a nicely detailed 1/6.8 scale FW-190 that I never worked up the courage to fly.  I thought I could convert it to C/L and have a reasonably competitive model.  I started a series of articles that began with the conversion.  As I dug deeper into what I had to do to get the model ready, I realized that the documentation that I used to build the original model would not cut it.  So I gathered documents for another version.  So what started as a simple idea expanded into a complete re-do of the model to match the target 1:1 aircraft.  So, starting with the January 2020 article I documented the work to prepare the model for the 2021 Nats.  If you are interested, here is a link to the "Skywriter" Newsletter index. the conversion work starts with the January 2020 issue.     http://www.skymasters.org/index.php?page=newsletters&year=2020    I missed a couple of months for my cancer surgery.  For the purpose of the "Some Assembly Required" articles I felt that my readers were getting burned out on the FW-190 project so I switched to the scratch build of a 50's vintage stunter called Fierce Arrow.  Work on the FW-190 continued in parallel and I''ll do a final article in a month or so.  Anyway, that's the story.  I've attached a bicture of the full scale of my model.  It's a very nicely restored and documented FW-190 F8 R1 on display in the National Air and Space Museum.

Steve

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2021, 09:02:22 AM »
A few posts back Aviojet asked for pictures.  The model is covered with masking tape and painting stencils at the moment but I have what might be a better way to showcase the effort I have expended to prepare this model.  A little background first.  About 7 years ago I was asked to write a "how to" article for my clubs newsletter.  I created a banner naming the article "Some Assembly Required". The article was well received and since then I think I've done more than 70  articles I think.  When I decided to fly in the Scale Nationals I made the further decision to repurpose an R/C model for the competition.  Years ago I scratch built (except for the glass fuselage shells) a nicely detailed 1/6.8 scale FW-190 that I never worked up the courage to fly.  I thought I could convert it to C/L and have a reasonably competitive model.  I started a series of articles that began with the conversion.  As I dug deeper into what I had to do to get the model ready, I realized that the documentation that I used to build the original model would not cut it.  So I gathered documents for another version.  So what started as a simple idea expanded into a complete re-do of the model to match the target 1:1 aircraft.  So, starting with the January 2020 article I documented the work to prepare the model for the 2021 Nats.  If you are interested, here is a link to the "Skywriter" Newsletter index. the conversion work starts with the January 2020 issue.     http://www.skymasters.org/index.php?page=newsletters&year=2020    I missed a couple of months for my cancer surgery.  For the purpose of the "Some Assembly Required" articles I felt that my readers were getting burned out on the FW-190 project so I switched to the scratch build of a 50's vintage stunter called Fierce Arrow.  Work on the FW-190 continued in parallel and I''ll do a final article in a month or so.  Anyway, that's the story.  I've attached a picture of the full scale of my model.  It's a very nicely restored and documented FW-190 F8 R1 on display in the National Air and Space Museum.

Steve

Steve, Very nice work. Looks to me like you are the EXPERT!

I have a couple of the Avengers. They are working their way to the top of the list.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2021, 09:22:15 AM »
Steve,

Thank you for this.

The kit you started with, do you remember who produced the kit.

Good luck at the NATs.

CB
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Hemi Steve

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2021, 12:13:21 PM »
I didn't build the model from a kit.  I bought the un-joined fuselage and cowl from a friend who bought it from another guy.  This was about 25 years ago or so. the fuselage and cowl parts came with a set of Brian Taylor drawings and a rough canopy.  I worked from the Brian Taylor drawings and cut a foam wing and stab and fabricated everything else as was my practice in those days.  I put in a set of Robart air retracts and fabricated the oleo struts

When I decided to redo the cockpit I found a source of canopies for the Brian Taylor design in England.  Following Dave Platts law number 7 (7.  Live by the principle of scarfology. Things disappear from the marketplace, so scarf them up while the scarfing is good) I bought 2. 

Some friends and I went to the "new" Toledo swap meet last Friday.  There was a guy there who had an FW-190 fuselage, cowl and canopy just like mine except they were already joined.  He wanted $100. I was really tempted but the more I thought about it I decided I don't want to do another one.  Too many other interesting subjects to choose from for the next effort.

Steve

Online John Rist

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2021, 10:16:27 PM »
Back in 2011 I campaigned an Extra 300S.  Built from a Great Planes RC kit.  The kit came with a molded fiber glass cowling in the kit.  No body complained that I didn't mold my own cowling.  You really don't have a problem!!!   y1
John Rist
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2021, 10:25:23 PM »
Unless you start with a plot of land in Ecuador and some balsa seeds, you're just not doing it right!
AMA 64232

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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2021, 12:08:55 PM »
I used to build and fly R/C scale models.  In scale, If I were to build from  a kit, I would first take photos of all the kit parts, especially any pre-made fiberglass parts.  This might show the level of effort required to complete the model, based on the pile of raw materials in the kit.  As already noted, any kit represents some level of pre-fabrication,. So the ratio of pre-fab to builder fab is always a subjective issue.  Any CD with experience in the event should rule based on both written rules and the most recent trend of interpretation.
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Offline Dick Byron

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2021, 08:51:21 PM »
We have had several contestants fly models with complete fiberglass fuse and additional components in FAI with no problem. The truth be told many of the models I observed at the Worlds were not built by the flier. Unfortunately that is why there is no more world championships.

Online Will Hinton

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2021, 04:55:41 PM »
We have had several contestants fly models with complete fiberglass fuse and additional components in FAI with no problem. The truth be told many of the models I observed at the Worlds were not built by the flier. Unfortunately that is why there is no more world championships.
AAAhhh, but they are working on bringing it back!  Stay tuned for updates.
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Offline Dick Byron

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2021, 08:28:32 AM »
That would be wonderful. 

Online Paul Smith

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Re: Builder of the model?
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2021, 07:39:15 AM »
The Fun Scale event allows flyers to fly factory made models that they did not build.  Most of these models are perfect in every way and would get the full 100 points from a fair judge.

The remaining events are a builders contests in which the contestants compete with their personal skill and craftsmanship. 
Paul Smith


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