Author Topic: 1 more Rules Change Proposal (Read 1119 times)

Clancy Arnold · « **on:** October 11, 2009, 07:23:00 PM »

I have just submitted another Rules Change Proposal. It will be in the Control Line General section of the Rules Change Proposals.

There is a problem between the CL General and the normal activities in CL Scale.

We CL Scale fliers are used to dropping bombs or cargo from our CL Scale Models but read the Control Line General Rules Section 7. Safety Rules.

I will go no farther, you can read the proposal on the AMA web site in a day or two.

Clancy

Paul Smith · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2009, 07:27:51 PM »

But CL Scale isn't under "CL General", it's under "Scale General".

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2009, 12:02:23 PM »

Paul
There is a Hierarchy in the Rules:
General Rules
Control Line General Rules
Control Line Event Rules
Scale General Rules (Fixed wing Control Line and Radio Control Aircraft)
Scale Event Rules

Clancy

Paul Smith · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2009, 12:34:26 PM »

I take it you'e trying to get an exemption to the "dropped parts" rule so you can drop bombs.

A CL General Rules change is an uphill battle because it needs to pass all of the contests boards: stunt, speed, racing, combat, and carrier. Not so easy.

Maybe you would have better luck:

A. Passing a "Scale General" rule to get the catagory general rules off the back of all three scale catagories.

B. Putting a "dropped parts waiver" into the CL Scale rules, similar to the "BOM" and muffler waivers in other events. I wouldn't have believed that an event could get away with a waiver agaisnt the Genral Rules, but it has been done.

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2009, 06:10:40 PM »

Paul
Thanks for the comments. I will keep them in mind, you might be right.

Dick Byron has submitted two Rules Change Proposals for the General Rules. Wonder who all will have to approve those changes. They are good ideas.

The biggest problem that I see if we take Scale General out from under CL General then all of the technical information on fabricating lines, for example, would then need to be duplicated in the Scale General Rules.

Clancy

Paul Smith · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2009, 07:20:49 PM »

By keeping CL Scale under both the CL and Scale General rules, you are leaving the events under a ton of bureaucracy.

If you could secede from either the CL or Scale General section, you would make life a lot easier. Or else just stay the course and continue to comply with both sets of rules.

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #6 on:** October 14, 2009, 09:25:36 AM »

Paul you were right in your first reply .. CL Scale isn't under CL General, it's under Scale General.

In other words CL General DOES NOT apply to the CL scale events. Here is the exact wording from event 509 CL SPORT SCALE:

1. General: All pertinent FCC regulations and AMA regulations (see sections titled Sanctioned Competitions, Records, Selection of Champions, General, and Scale General) shall be applicable, except as specified below.

Notice General and Scale General, but not CL General.

Further reading also reveals that all the other CL Scale events base off these 509 rules, with opening statements such as, Rules are identical to Event 509 except as below.

Bottom line is that bomb drop and other scale drop options are legal and always have been. The words except as specified below mean that the scale specific rules that follow supercede the general rules. The scale specific rules give points and judging criteria for dropping bombs. How could that be if they were not allowed?

Based on the words except as specified below, the event specific rules supercede the general rules.

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #7 on:** October 16, 2009, 02:03:09 PM »

Mike
As an example of why CL Scale must comply with the CL General Rules, I have one question.

"If CL Scale does not come under CL General Rules, how and from what material do I make my flying lines?"

Clancy

Paul Smith · « **Reply #8 on:** October 16, 2009, 02:57:56 PM »

It's your airplane, you're free to make the lines any way that feels safe to you and passes the pull test. Which, in practice is pretty much how all CL operates. Sure, there are some sketches of line terminations in The Rule Book, but outside of Speed, I doubt anybody ever looks at the terminations.

On the subject of lines, I notice that, based on weight, the Scale rules mandate line sizes of .012", .018", and .027" in three giant steps, bypassing .015", .021" and .024" entirely.

I sure never intend to fly anything over 15 pounds, but using three .027" lines would be a ting to behold. The pull test is capped at 80 pounds, but the lines have a rated strength of 125 pounds, so three would be good for 375 pounds. Assuming the wrist straps holds, we could have a CL version of "balloon boy".

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #9 on:** October 16, 2009, 08:02:16 PM »

This will save me from having to junk a set of .027 lines because they are too short. I will make up a set 5 ft long and splice them to my original lines.
Clancy

roger · « **Reply #10 on:** October 16, 2009, 08:50:16 PM »

rules rules rules i dont think any of you guys are going to heaven cause god might have to many rule changes so i guess you can all go to hell now what icant drop bombs out of my b-29 wheres the scale in that? do i just tell the judge yeah and she drops a bomb through these doors

Hoss Cain · « **Reply #11 on:** October 16, 2009, 10:37:26 PM »

Quote from: Clancy Arnold on October 11, 2009, 07:23:00 PM

I have just submitted another Rules Change Proposal. It will be in the Control Line General section of the Rules Change Proposals.

We CL Scale fliers are used to dropping bombs or cargo from our CL Scale Models but read the Control Line General Rules Section 7. Safety Rules.
I will go no farther, you can read the proposal on the AMA web site in a day or two.

Clancy

Clancy IMO, regardless if the rules are CL general or Scale general or both:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"A foul shall be called against a contestant when any part of his model other than the propeller(s), but including wheels and/or tires, is lost during flight (unless due to midair collision or line entanglement in multiple pilot events).
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If a pilot DROPS a bomb, the "store" is not "part" of the model, nor is it "lost". It was a transported item and purposely released and therefore not "lost". If such item was judged against me, I would protest that to the surpreme court.

Like in everything, some folks get a tad carried away with a little bit of self-proclaimed power.

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #12 on:** October 17, 2009, 07:43:25 AM »

Thanks Hoss
That is the best explanation I have seen and it answers my original question.

Clancy

roger · « **Reply #13 on:** October 17, 2009, 07:50:07 AM »

and clancy your the one that sells the electronics to make all that stuff happen what the heck you doin?

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #14 on:** October 17, 2009, 02:02:22 PM »

Just trying to clean up the Rules so that a new contestant can understand what the Rule Book says they can and cannot do.

Clancy

john e. holliday · « **Reply #15 on:** October 18, 2009, 08:11:38 AM »

I have a question, "How many scale models are flown to their max speed possible in competition"? DOC Holliday

chuck snyder · « **Reply #16 on:** October 18, 2009, 02:58:57 PM »

DOC,
In my FAI flight program with the Hs-129 (a low altitude anti-tank airplane) I do a bomb run. I start at the 6 meter altitude and cruise throttle. I then open the throttle to full (or at least that is what I tell the judges) and then do a shallow dive to approximately 1 meter and release the bombs. Then I do another lap at that same low altitude and "full" throttle, "as if evading flak." Then I climb back to the normal altitude and throttle back to cruise. The judges at the W/C's really ate it up. That is the only time I ever use full throttle, except maybe at takeoff for a very short time. The line tension is very high.
Chuck

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #17 on:** October 21, 2009, 06:22:51 AM »

Doc
As I have said before, I set the throttles to just hold me up! That is when I fly one of my twin engine scale CL models that I have to lean back to hold against the line pull.
I set the throttles where it feels comfortable to hold. This might be a 15 or 20 degree lean to the rear but I do not notice it as the model is holding me up.
Clancy

john e. holliday · « **Reply #18 on:** October 21, 2009, 09:41:25 AM »

Remember the old Eureka kits. Gene Dunham of the old Flying Eagles club use to have the C-47/DC-3 with no throttles. He had to take off his shoes to fly the airplane. That is how hard it flew with two K&B Greenhead .35's. He also held on lwith both hands. Clancy I was there when you put your twin engined Caribu into the tar mac. DOC Holliday

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #19 on:** October 21, 2009, 10:54:54 AM »

Quote from: Clancy Arnold on October 17, 2009, 02:02:22 PM

Just trying to clean up the Rules so that a new contestant can understand what the Rule Book says they can and cannot do.

Clancy

Don't all the events have a paragraph similar to:

CONTROL LINE PRECISION SCALE
For event 508.
1. Applicability. All pertinent AMA regulations
(see sections titled Sanctioned Competitions,
Records, Selection of Champions, and General)
shall be applicable as shall the General Control
Line rules, the Scale General rules and the
Unified Judging rules, except as specified below.

As I read it, any exemptions spelled out in the Scale rules trump the General Rules section -- and the scale rules specifically allow the dropping of stores or the simulation of crop dusting and in fact, they REWARD it with points.

I don't see any real need for any further clarification - what would be the point of each judge writing down a score for the operation, then declaring a foul and zeroing the flight score?

In any case, the place to state exceptions to the General Rules is in the individual event rules if the exception is only to apply to that specific event.

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #20 on:** October 21, 2009, 04:42:23 PM »

Mike
Thank you very much. You have shown me where the problem is and the changes that I need to make in my Rules Change Proposal.
Clancy