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Author Topic: Overhead 8 Exit  (Read 1918 times)

Online Ken Culbertson

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Overhead 8 Exit
« on: May 25, 2018, 04:14:23 PM »
I have a question on the exit from the Overhead 8.  The rule book implies that you should exit like you would a wing over yet the judging stops when you pass the intersection after the 2nd 8.  The descent to level flight is not judged.  Is it necessary to make the pullout from that "wing over" tight?  The reason I ask is having to turn around while looking straight up in order to face that corner has me nearly falling over.  If I can stay with my face to the wind and twist enough to make a smooth pullout I am fine.  That appears to be legal but I can see some judges nixing the pattern points.  Same with the entrance, does it have to be a tight radius since judging doesn't start till the 1st intersection.

Ken
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Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2018, 04:59:11 PM »
In my humble opinion:
not necessary, but advisable...
We are all in their hands.
And you can trust in their subjectivity and incompetence fare more than objectivity, attention and expertness.
I love them: while we are playing, they are working... :)

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2018, 09:35:56 PM »
I have a question on the exit from the Overhead 8.  The rule book implies that you should exit like you would a wing over yet the judging stops when you pass the intersection after the 2nd 8.  The descent to level flight is not judged.  Is it necessary to make the pullout from that "wing over" tight? 

   No.

    Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2018, 11:44:44 PM »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2018, 10:35:55 AM »
Brett is correct as I have also done with the 4 leaf clover.  As soon as I hit top of circle on windy days I do not try to keep going straight down to level flight.  I have lost several planes while doing that especially on gusty high winds. D>K
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2018, 10:58:25 AM »
Brett is correct as I have also done with the 4 leaf clover.  As soon as I hit top of circle on windy days I do not try to keep going straight down to level flight.  I have lost several planes while doing that especially on gusty high winds. D>K

Thanks!  That was the last thing I had to figure out.  If I don't have to rotate at the end of the 8 and I can just fly through the intersection and open up like it was a horizontal, I don't lose my balance.  (It sucks getting old)  I found a way to do the reverse WO without changing position and I think they are actually better as a result.

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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2018, 11:58:28 PM »
I have similar problems with the OH8, because my spine is junk. I want to practice turning and facing downwind to do the OH8's, but will have to do a bunch of dry flying at home to get my dance moves down pat. Trying to "just do it", I got confused and about crashed, or did the outside first, etc.

The reasoning (I think) makes sense, because most of us are unable to bend ourselves enough to see straight up, and it'd be better to fly "out front" of ourselves downwind, rather than upwind. Which is what most of us are currently doing. Will the judges care which way you're facing? I don't think so, but I am 100% certain that most of us geezers can do better OH8's by facing downwind and having more line tension.  D>K Steve
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In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2018, 10:34:45 AM »
I have similar problems with the OH8, because my spine is junk. I want to practice turning and facing downwind to do the OH8's, but will have to do a bunch of dry flying at home to get my dance moves down pat. Trying to "just do it", I got confused and about crashed, or did the outside first, etc.

The reasoning (I think) makes sense, because most of us are unable to bend ourselves enough to see straight up, and it'd be better to fly "out front" of ourselves downwind, rather than upwind. Which is what most of us are currently doing. Will the judges care which way you're facing? I don't think so, but I am 100% certain that most of us geezers can do better OH8's by facing downwind and having more line tension.  D>K Steve

I am still pushing for a "Senior Citizen" rule that would let you replace the 8 with something like an outside triangle or double the cloverleaf.  Or we could wait till "them that write the rules" start to experience having to find your plane before the noise stops. :X I can still do them facing upwind but I can't follow the plane on the downwind side of the loops and I have to do an "over the shoulder" exit.  One gust of wind and it becomes a religious experience.    I did try what you tried with the same results.  In fact I got so disoriented that the Pilot Figure in my plane demanded an ejection seat be installed. n1  I used to judge allot so I can tell you that if the judges are properly positioned you can fudge "directly overhead" by about 5 degrees if you can nail the intersection and the judges will have a hard time noticing that you were not directly overhead.  You are still facing upwind but the intersection is more visible so you are only flying about 1/3 of the 8 blind instead on 1/2.  I am willing to give some points on not being directly overhead to be able to do the rest of the 8 reasonably well and I would rather have the more difficult upwind half the part I can see.  Any way you cut it, that maneuver was not designed by someone over 60!



Ken
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 10:53:34 AM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2018, 07:45:35 PM »
well I guess that is why I didn't score better today as I was flying by feel on any thing at the top of the circle because of the sun.  D>K 
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2018, 11:22:04 PM »
Ken, I don't find it difficult to judge whether the model is at 90 deg. quite accurately, just by whether the wing is straight up/down. Nothing else will work better, and I don't think my method is that difficult to repeat. However, after some discussions with my eye Dr., I have wondered if some eye difficulties might explain various shape errors...stigmatism, I believe. No, I don't have it, and I no longer wear corrective lenses...nope, no surgery, either. Well, except for the knee, appendix, a cyst removal, and there was that melanoma...   y1 Steve
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In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2018, 01:08:22 PM »
I've considered trying the overhead 8 standing sideways, the way you'd do a wingover.  You're almost guaranteed to have problems making the loops equal, but it may be easier to do the maneuver.
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2018, 11:27:37 PM »
Well, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one with this problem. I almost fell exiting the OH8 in a contest at Triple Tree. I'm sure I looked pretty comical to anyone watching me rather than the plane, but I somehow managed to end up staggeranding during the first lap after exiting, and got through a decent clover with slightly less of a stumble... and won the dang event, Lol. All the stumbling took place after the official exit point.

I later bought a pair of very light weight, flat soled New Balance #365 shoes to help my stability. They did help.
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Offline phil c

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2018, 11:56:04 AM »
I have a question on the exit from the Overhead 8.  The rule book implies that you should exit like you would a wing over yet the judging stops when you pass the intersection after the 2nd 8.  The descent to level flight is not judged.  Is it necessary to make the pullout from that "wing over" tight?  The reason I ask is having to turn around while looking straight up in order to face that corner has me nearly falling over.  If I can stay with my face to the wind and twist enough to make a smooth pullout I am fine.  That appears to be legal but I can see some judges nixing the pattern points.  Same with the entrance, does it have to be a tight radius since judging doesn't start till the 1st intersection.

Ken

Just don't exit the OH8 on the same path as the as the lefthand loop.  Straighten out a bit at the top and widen the turn to well below 45deg. for recovery to level flight.  It helps of you can pivot as you do the first inside loop so you are facing down the exit path at the end.  Another really common error is letting the plane drop well below 45deg at the lower edges of the loops.

Thinking about the exit I looked up the 2017-2018 rules on modelaircraft.org.  The maneuver diagram for the OH 8 does not match what people fly.  I think it is a holdover from clockwise flight(George Aldrich).  It shows the plane entering from upright level flight with the diagrammatic plane having the rudder pointing to the right of the diagram.  The first loop is an inside on the right of the diagram and is loop 1 with loop 2 on the left.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2018, 12:40:31 PM »
Just don't exit the OH8 on the same path as the as the lefthand loop.  Straighten out a bit at the top and widen the turn to well below 45deg. for recovery to level flight.  It helps of you can pivot as you do the first inside loop so you are facing down the exit path at the end.  Another really common error is letting the plane drop well below 45deg at the lower edges of the loops.

Thinking about the exit I looked up the 2017-2018 rules on modelaircraft.org.  The maneuver diagram for the OH 8 does not match what people fly.  I think it is a holdover from clockwise flight(George Aldrich).  It shows the plane entering from upright level flight with the diagrammatic plane having the rudder pointing to the right of the diagram.  The first loop is an inside on the right of the diagram and is loop 1 with loop 2 on the left.
I have become more comfortable with the OH8 since I started this thread.  I am doing essentially what you suggested but on the 2nd loop at the exit point.  It is not necessary to do a "5'" reverse wingover type exit and most of the time I can do the pivot to face the exit without getting as disoriented as I was at first.  The one thing I still hate about the OH8 is it's susceptibility to the slightest wind shift.  I have never understood why the only exception to "forces outside your control" is getting a tailwind on landing but a 90degree wind shift in the 8 is "tough Sh**".

Ken
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2018, 04:57:06 PM »
"I have never understood why the only exception to "forces outside your control" is getting a tailwind on landing but a 90degree wind shift in the 8 is "tough Sh**"."


IMO, getting a tailwind on landing doesn't get you any slack from the judges at all. "Forces outside your control" would be stuff like a dog running into the circle, tumbleweed knocking you down, artificial leg falling off, tornado siren, zombie attack, etc. The flier needs to foresee potential problems that may affect his flight, like when flying at a municipal airport, and a large airplane is coming down the taxiway, and consider that prop wash might cause you problems. A really good time to take an attempt and step down the flight order two spots. "Hey, Howard, it's your turn!"   LL~ Steve
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General Mattis.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2018, 06:17:16 PM »
"I have never understood why the only exception to "forces outside your control" is getting a tailwind on landing but a 90degree wind shift in the 8 is "tough Sh**"."


IMO, getting a tailwind on landing doesn't get you any slack from the judges at all. "Forces outside your control" would be stuff like a dog running into the circle, tumbleweed knocking you down, artificial leg falling off, tornado siren, zombie attack, etc. The flier needs to foresee potential problems that may affect his flight, like when flying at a municipal airport, and a large airplane is coming down the taxiway, and consider that prop wash might cause you problems. A really good time to take an attempt and step down the flight order two spots. "Hey, Howard, it's your turn!"   LL~ Steve
It's in the book.  y1  So is the dog  n1 but you should anticipate a tornado siren during a zombie attack. LL~
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2018, 06:25:11 PM »
... artificial leg falling off ...

Sorry Steve.  If your leg falls off due to poor maintenance on your part, you're out of luck.  Now, if it's a demonstrable manufacturing defect that's different.  Carpenter ants in the wood is definitely something that would require deliberation.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2018, 08:57:37 AM »
I only brought up the artificial leg because I used to know a couple of guys with old fashioned wooden feet or legs. Both were welder/fabricators...imagine the odds. One of them liked to stick his knife in his leg just to see the reaction. I tried that with a #11 Xacto once, but not on purpose. The reaction was about the same, tho.  :o  :o :o   


Couldn't find a link to AMA in my favorites (which may tell you something about my opinion of the AMA) to look up the downwind landing deal that Ken mentioned. So, I used "DuckDuckGo" (search engine) to look 'em up. Hmmmm. New website. Looked for "Competition Rules", which was previously easy to find. Could NOT find any rules at all, but ads and the AMA Foundation and a way to Donate. Wow, they suck! So, I also noticed a button to send them an opinion of their new website.

This is what I sent: "Can't find the competition rules. Plenty of other stuff can be found, but mostly fluff, ads, or ways to donate. Clearly, you've forgotten about the only reason most of us belong to the AMA. NOT HAPPY!  Steve"

Ken, i'll look for a link to the old website, if it still exists, and look for the "downwind landing clause". If you would kindly post the location page, section, paragraph numbers, etc., where you found it, I'd be thrilled, and will look it up. IMO, the organization of the PA rules is a mess...but then again, I can't find the damned rules on AMA's new damned website, so maybe there aren't any damned rules anymore?

IDK, but we're supposed to go flying this morning. It's misting...hasn't happened in a long while...but I hope it takes this damned smoke from forest fires out of the air, 'cause that SUCKS (along with the AMA)!  Happy happy!!!   H^^  Steve
 
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General Mattis.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2018, 09:46:39 AM »
Hey, it is still modelaircraft.org  .    Now you have to register and have a password and login. S?P
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2018, 10:15:57 AM »
Ken, i'll look for a link to the old website, if it still exists, and look for the "downwind landing clause". If you would kindly post the location page, section, paragraph numbers, etc., where you found it, I'd be thrilled, and will look it up. IMO, the organization of the PA rules is a mess...but then again, I can't find the damned rules on AMA's new damned website, so maybe there aren't any damned rules anymore?

IDK, but we're supposed to go flying this morning. It's misting...hasn't happened in a long while...but I hope it takes this damned smoke from forest fires out of the air, 'cause that SUCKS (along with the AMA)!  Happy happy!!!   H^^  Steve

Hard to find on the new web site but it is all there and rather easy to access once you find it on what has to be the worst remake of a web site in recorded history.

You have to read this carefully because it is burried in statements to the opposite:

14.10. Consideration of external factors
With the exceptions mentioned in Landing (Paragraph 13.15.), “normal”
external factors should not in any way affect the marks awarded by judges.
So it is not permitted for judges’ marks to allow for the effects of gusty
winds in marking any phase of any maneuver, except during the ground
rollout phase of the Landing maneuver — for example, if a sudden fierce gust of wind coming from behind the model aircraft causes it to flip over or tip onto its nose during the last part of the ground rollout.

Ken

https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/files/CLPrecisionAerobatics2017-2018.pdf
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 10:40:10 AM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2018, 04:40:14 PM »
Thanks, Ken, for pasting that in here. I remember that part. That applies once the plane is on the ground, and could be applied if it comes into the wind and gets ballooned up and flips over or something unfortunate like that. It doesn't apply until the model has executed one (1) landing.

Personally, I'd expect the judges to notice that the elevators are full down, the flaps full up, and IF that has been done immediately after touchdown in significant wind, then that rule kicks in, and not before. IF, on the other hand, the wind direction shifts 90 deg. during the glide, tough stuff, deal with it, just like any other maneuver. 

I don't usually have to fly in all that much wind, but at VSC in '09 on Circle 3, last round & on schedule, my engine quit 1/2 lap before the judges position, did a decent landing (except the glide angle was at a smooth 30 degrees), no bounces or ballooning, and it was stopped about in front of the judges. I don't recall getting good scores, for some reason, but I thought it was freakin' awesome, considering!  H^^
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General Mattis.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2018, 05:10:46 PM »
Thanks, Ken, for pasting that in here. I remember that part. That applies once the plane is on the ground, and could be applied if it comes into the wind and gets ballooned up and flips over or something unfortunate like that. It doesn't apply until the model has executed one (1) landing.

Personally, I'd expect the judges to notice that the elevators are full down, the flaps full up, and IF that has been done immediately after touchdown in significant wind, then that rule kicks in, and not before. IF, on the other hand, the wind direction shifts 90 deg. during the glide, tough stuff, deal with it, just like any other maneuver. 

I don't usually have to fly in all that much wind, but at VSC in '09 on Circle 3, last round & on schedule, my engine quit 1/2 lap before the judges position, did a decent landing (except the glide angle was at a smooth 30 degrees), no bounces or ballooning, and it was stopped about in front of the judges. I don't recall getting good scores, for some reason, but I thought it was freakin' awesome, considering!  H^^
I am always on the ground within a lap of where ever the engine quits.  I take it up to about 20 degrees and start mildly whipping as the engine signals a quit. (I get a 1 1/2 lap notification).  When it stops I level the wings and let it settle in on it's own.  A finger squeeze of up at about 1" to avoid a bounce and full down as soon as I feel the lines telling me it is solidly on the ground.  38+ every time.  In wind I drop down to 5' and get it on the ground as fast as I can.

Ken
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Offline EddyR

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2018, 03:06:12 PM »
There is a easy solution to the turning around problem.  Enter the overhead as a wingover and turn another 1/4 turn as the plane reaches the top of the circle and do the overhead eights facing down wind. Exit just like a wing over.  You will fly right up to center and exit on center. Most flyers miss the intersection by 5-8 ft when facing the judges. This is the way most did it up until the 1970's.
Ed
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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2018, 07:48:10 PM »
If you want to look up the other AMA regulations (General Control Line, Carrier, etc.) Go to the AMA website: modelaircraft.org.  Level with the AMA symbol on the right side you click on "Events."  In the right column that comes up you'll find "Rules and Regulations."

I was frustrated by not being able to find the rules a week or two ago and someone here (stunthanger) had these instructions written out.  So, I'm just passing this on.

Joe Ed Pederson
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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2018, 10:26:22 AM »
It doesn't matter which way you enter the overhead eights, facing upwind or down wind.  It is up to the pilot to make the maneuver as close to the rulebook discription as close as possible.  Outside factors are not considered such as wind speed, direction changes, or bumps in the air. 

I've flown in 25 Nat’s and dozen TT and the pilot that performed the maneuvers as described wins period.  I learned this the hard way at the last Lincoln Nat’s.  The wind was blowing really bad (excess of 25 mph or better).  I watched a number of pilots fly the overheads with out much problem, but I was having fits just getting through most of the maneuvers.  I had a very good model and engine and many practice flights, but why was I having so many problems.  During the drive home after the Nat’s I was more than a little bummed (really dejected) about my flight performance and had to figure out why.

I was determined to practice more for next year and I did just that by burning over 30 gallons of fuel in the weeks just before the Nat’s.  In the end, I figured out it was more than just lack of practice, it was also engine, model, and how I was peppering for the up coming Nat’s.  The next model had different engine, heavy duty control system, lighter weight, and “the really big change” was listening to my coaches and fixing the problems with my pattern. Another was boosting my confidence in flying in high winds by practicing in high winds and becoming more comfortable doing so.  I would no longer pass on flights at windy contests but try my hardest to put in the best score in the wind.

Also watching some of the best pilots fly and copying some of the ways they flew each maneuver.  For example, no more soft corner exiting the overheads and/or four leaf clover,  keeping all my bottoms and level flights at 4-1/2 to 5 feet, making sure the first turn of the outside squares was vertical (like falling off a pool table), flying the horizontal eights by exiting the maneuver just like starting another eight even though the maneuver ends at the intersection and fly it down to level flight.  Most of all, make the pattern smooth and consistent from beginning to end.  One of the most important things I learned was to, not leave points on the table,  i. e. Take offs & landings and inverted flight and the correct number of laps between each maneuver.

Later,
Mikey
 





Offline Trostle

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Re: Overhead 8 Exit
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2018, 03:21:38 PM »
It doesn't matter which way you enter the overhead eights, facing upwind or down wind.  It is up to the pilot to make the maneuver as close to the rulebook description as close as possible.  Outside factors are not considered such as wind speed, direction changes, or bumps in the air. 

(Clip)

Later,
Mikey

Hi Mikey,

You are correct that the overhead eights can be started "facing upwind or down wind".  There are some who might argue that the rule book requires entry to the overhead eights must be from the upwind side as shown in the maneuver diagram in the rule book which shows the wind direction arrow.    In fact, you can start the eights from any point of the circle.  From the rule book, "The 'wind arrows' indicating maneuver orientation with respect to the wind are for guidance only.  There is no penalty for not adhering to the suggested wind direction aside from a potentially lower maneuver scores [sic] caused by making the judge's evaluation of the maneuver more difficult."  (Paragraph 13)

If a pilot is trying to impress the judges about how well he can fly a maneuver, it is recommended that he fly the maneuver in the manner that most other pilots are doing it as well as adhering to the suggested wind arrows and not surprise the judges with something they do not expect, even though the maneuver is flown as specified by the rules.  Also, at least keep the overhead intersections aligned with the wind where the judges can best see how well those intersections are flown.  Judges generally do not give a particularly good score when they cannot see how well the maneuver is being flown because of some "unconventional" execution.

Keith


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