News:



Advertise Here

  • October 21, 2019, 10:37:08 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Appearance Points?  (Read 1225 times)

Offline Haoyang Wang

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Appearance Points?
« on: July 06, 2019, 11:19:37 PM »
Hi! Could somebody help me understand how the appearance points are awarded?

If I show up with a profile plane covered in iron-on film that I build myself, how many points out of 20 would I expect to get?
Does it help if I add some panel lines?
Is it true that I will have to give up all my appearance points with a TEOSAWKI?

Thank you,
Haoyang

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 10097
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2019, 01:20:39 AM »
Hi! Could somebody help me understand how the appearance points are awarded?

If I show up with a profile plane covered in iron-on film that I build myself, how many points out of 20 would I expect to get?

Does it help if I add some panel lines?

    Appearance points, like all stunt scores, are a subjective evaluation, so no way to give exact numbers. I have seen Monokoted profiles that I would give 16-17 points, and I have seen and given scores as low as maybe 4 or 5 to airplanes that looked like they might fall apart if you picked them up*. It depends on the quality of the workmanship, there are not specific deductions. To get 15-16-17, it has to be very superior in terms of craftsmanship, and look clean and neat.

     Flawless workmanship and lack of obvious flaws is A LOT more important than features like panel lines.



Quote
Is it true that I will have to give up all my appearance points with a TEOSAWKI?

    If it's an ARF or ARC, no appearance points. But if you are flying airplanes like this, you can easily overcome the few lost points by flying better, and not screwing up (like overrunning, leaving out a manevuer, or some other technical fault). You aren't going to beat David and Paul, but outside the nationally-competitive modelers, both you and your competitors will make large numbers of easily correctable mistakes that could easily get you a lot more than the 15 points you lost. There are 20 appearance points and something like 625 flying points and a typical Intermediate score is around 400 points - so, there are a lot of points being left on the table.

      Just go to the contest and not worry about it, it will be fine.

     Brett

*I actually have seen a case where the appearance judges *were* concerned about even picking up the airplane, for fear of breaking it or something falling off!

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 11333
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2019, 12:09:00 PM »
    Appearance points, like all stunt scores, are a subjective evaluation, so no way to give exact numbers.

<snip>

     Flawless workmanship and lack of obvious flaws is A LOT more important than features like panel lines.

Panel lines are the little dots on the icing on the cake -- and while they can help push you over the edge from 19 points to 20, they're certainly not going to make any difference if they're applied to a 12-point airframe.  If anything, if you spent effort on panel lines that I feel you could have spent making the overall airplane better, it may just @#$% me off and make me less forgiving of the overall collection of flaws.

I'm actually not sure what I'd do if someone presented me with a flawless all-white airplane for appearance judging -- probably give them 18 to 19 points, and then give them grief after the contest.  (Although, I'm old enough to remember the generic brand craze of the mid-80's -- an all white airplane named "AIRPLANE" in that signature font might make me smile and give you full credit for having a paint job that matches an overall scheme).

Which makes me realize (and yes, I should be thinking of this consciously) once the airframe is flawless, I'm going to grade your paint scheme for how well it fits into an overall scheme.  If you're building a warbird, or painting to a warbird theme -- yes, panel lines will enhance that, as will exhaust streaks (as long as you don't rub through them while polishing).  If you're making some swoopy curly graphics theme and you cut across it with dead-straight panel lines -- I may get irritated with the clash of themes, and grade you down.

Each judge is going to be different, but technically there's no reason a profile airplane couldn't get 19 or 20 points -- but that would first depend on getting a set of appearance judges that wouldn't say "oh, profile, no more than XX points", and second, if I were on the team, it would have to be flawless -- meaning that you'd need to put as much effort into making the exposed engine, fuel system, and control system look good as you put into the rest of the airplane.  I'm talking a polished or painted engine, fuel tubing that's dressed to look nice (probably braided stainless hoses, like you see on show cars or motorcycles), a fuel tank that's built for appearance and possibly painted, etc.  Ditto with the control system.  Getting all that detail done to the point where you'd hit the threshold of 19 points for me would mean more effort than wrapping all that stuff inside of a fuselage, and you'd still have a high chance of getting a judge that's got a personal maximum of 16 points (or whatever) for a profile.

      Just go to the contest and not worry about it, it will be fine.

Yes yes yes.  The only reasons I can see for putting a lot of effort into making a profile look good are because you want the practice at finishing, because you just want to, or because you're constrained to flying in profile events only for some reason (we have one local here who's very observant about going to church (religious about it, even), and we always have PA on Sundays -- so he flies profile, and enters PA if he can get to the contest before the second round of PA is done).

I've been competing for about six years total (2010 to now, with a break for a bad shoulder).  In that time I think I've been bumped up or down a position twice because of the difference between appearance points on my and my competitor's airplane.  Until you're flying the top echelons of Expert, you are just not going to regularly see the half-point differences in final scores that really motivate getting the perfect appearance points.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Howard Rush

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6639
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2019, 07:26:44 PM »
Vortex generators will give you more appearance points than panel lines.  Judges throw points at vortex generators.  Lights help, too.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline BYU

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 426
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2019, 01:27:34 PM »
Vortex generators will give you more appearance points than panel lines.  Judges throw points at vortex generators.  Lights help, too.

So its illuminated Vortex generators next then?

Anyone know where I can get some?

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 11333
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2019, 01:44:38 PM »
So its illuminated Vortex generators next then?

Anyone know where I can get some?

You could be the first!  Build some LEDs into your wing, and mount vortex generators over 'em.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Howard Rush

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6639
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2019, 05:40:56 PM »
Fiber optics.  In development at Jive Combat Team Laboratories. 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Haoyang Wang

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2019, 12:43:23 AM »
Well, as it happens, I do have LED lights installed on my (electric) planes, so that I can fly them in the evening at a local baseball field.

A squarish fuselage is easier to cover than a curvy one, and square wingtips are much easier to cover than round ones. So if being flawless is the goal, maybe I will have better chance with an all-square plane? ;D

The all-white scheme is not easy to execute flawlessly: Without color changes, how do you hide the seams at the transitions?

(I read somewhere that one would have to give up the appearance points with a TEOSAWKI, not realizing that the real reason was that TEOSAWKI was originally sold as ARF.)

Thank you all for the clarifications and the encouragement!

Haoyang

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 10097
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2019, 10:00:49 AM »
A squarish fuselage is easier to cover than a curvy one, and square wingtips are much easier to cover than round ones. So if being flawless is the goal, maybe I will have better chance with an all-square plane? ;D

The all-white scheme is not easy to execute flawlessly: Without color changes, how do you hide the seams at the transitions?

    It is a long-known technique to use detail (like ink lines, trim colors, rivets, decals, etc) to hide flaws. This works to some extent, however, the appearance judges know this technique, too, so the detail should be appropriate for the rest of the airplane.

    Unless you have been a lot of stunt contests with nationally-competitive modelers, you may not fully appreciate what "flawless" means in the context of stunt. I know I sure didn't, but the very first contest I entered, there were a couple of  NATS front-row airplanes. Then I realized that building/finishing was also a skill that had to be developed over years, just like flying.

      Brett

Offline Matt Spencer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 3629
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2019, 05:16:40 AM »
Thought the guys at the Nats could get the sanding blocks out , after appearance judgeing , and shave off five ounces or so .  VD~

Occuered to me , that at the World Champs , tho No Points for Appearance ,  As a Incentive , the ' Flight Draw ' could be determined from the concourse placings .

Dont as how thatd work , No 1 gets first choice ? ?
 Be like the Grid Possitions from qualifying Times in motorracing . The Flashest punk gets the big stick . Following on down the order . Then we could have some serious bickkering .

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 10097
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2019, 08:50:02 AM »
Thought the guys at the Nats could get the sanding blocks out , after appearance judgeing , and shave off five ounces or so .  VD~

      Way ahead of you on that one:

10. Appearance.
Models shall be judged for appearance complete and ready to fly. After model has been judged, nothing will be removed from or added to the model which, in the judges’ opinion, changes in any manner the appearance of the model from the way it was when presented for appearance judging.


   Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 11333
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2019, 09:01:33 AM »
A squarish fuselage is easier to cover than a curvy one, and square wingtips are much easier to cover than round ones. So if being flawless is the goal, maybe I will have better chance with an all-square plane? ;D

First, if someone showed up with a squared-off airplane I'd be looking for consistent rounding-off of those corners, all down the length of the fuse.  And it's hard to paint consistently around square corners, and the corners make planning and executing trim lines more difficult.

Second, you're judging the plane on "overall impression" as well as "flawless" -- so the judges will see an all-square plane and say "ewww!", and that'll show up in the scores.

Third, swoopy round fuselages are stronger for the weight than square-cornered ones.

The all-white scheme is not easy to execute flawlessly: Without color changes, how do you hide the seams at the transitions?

Seams?  What seams?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Trostle

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2555
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2019, 09:48:34 AM »
      Way ahead of you on that one:

10. Appearance.
Models shall be judged for appearance complete and ready to fly. After model has been judged, nothing will be removed from or added to the model which, in the judges’ opinion, changes in any manner the appearance of the model from the way it was when presented for appearance judging.


   Brett

What should the ED or appearance judge do when a model is presented for appearance judging with an immaculate prop finished to compliment/match the color scheme of the complete model, then replaces the prop for an official flight with one that no longer preserves the overall appearance of the model as it was with the really nice prop?

What happens if the "appearance" is changed like changing the prop or a different looking landing gear or removal of the cowl?  Are appearance points to be reduced or eliminated?  What happens if the model crashes or damaged prior to an official flight and the repairs alter the appearance?  Point reduction or appearance points eliminated?

These situations have come up before and the rules do not address the questions.

Keith

Keith

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 10097
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2019, 09:52:18 AM »
Seams?  What seams?

     Exactly. This is one of those things that has to be seen to be fully appreciated, just like everything else. No one is going to learn it by themselves at home with only internet posts to figure it out.   The only way to make headway is to get out and do it, studying alone will not solve the problem.

    Brett

     

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 10097
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2019, 09:56:04 AM »
What should the ED or appearance judge do when a model is presented for appearance judging with an immaculate prop finished to compliment/match the color scheme of the complete model, then replaces the prop for an official flight with one that no longer preserves the overall appearance of the model as it was with the really nice prop?

What happens if the "appearance" is changed like changing the prop or a different looking landing gear or removal of the cowl?  Are appearance points to be reduced or eliminated?  What happens if the model crashes or damaged prior to an official flight and the repairs alter the appearance?  Point reduction or appearance points eliminated?

These situations have come up before and the rules do not address the questions.

As you already know, I quoted only part of this paragraph, so...

10. Appearance.
Models shall be judged for appearance complete and ready to fly. After model has been judged, nothing will be removed from or added to the model which, in the judges’ opinion, changes in any manner the appearance of the model from the way it was when presented for appearance judging. However, during an attempt for official flight after the contestant has begun to crank the engine, if it becomes necessary to remove the propeller spinner for change of propeller, etc., then it is permissible to leave off the spinner for that particular flight. Any damage to the model after judging, or changes that may be made as a result of such damage, will not be cause for loss of appearance points. Appearance judging will take place just before contestant’s first flight. Judges shall exercise prudence in assigning points, and reserve excellent point values for those models which are decidedly above average.



  The only unaddressed part is the penalty, far as I can tell.

     Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 11333
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2019, 11:45:29 AM »
This thread is making me want to swap the RC stuff in my Ugly Stik for CL and enter it in PA, just once.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Joe Otto

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • To try for perfection beats attaining mediocrity
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2019, 06:44:52 AM »
Just returned from the 2019 CLPA Nats. Some beautiful aircraft.  Crist Rigotti was awarded 17 in appearance judging with a VERY nice airplane with Monokote wings and painted fuse and tail. Excellent trim on the wings but an overall scheme that would not be considered complex or ‘swirly’.  As it should, superior craftsmanship rises to the top.  How well it’s done carries more value than what it’s done with.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 11333
Re: Appearance Points?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2019, 09:19:38 AM »
... Crist Rigotti was awarded 17 in appearance judging with a VERY nice airplane with Monokote wings and painted fuse and tail. ...

I was going to guess that would be about the maximum that you could get at the Nats within the limitations of 'coat.  At least without spraying it with some sandable clear and smoothing out the ridges, which would be -- odd.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.


Advertise Here
Tags: Monokote 
 


Advertise Here