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Author Topic: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models  (Read 6643 times)

Online Paul Smith

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2017, 05:18:52 PM »
Doctor Strangelove was produced in 1962-3 and released in January 1964.  They had the Doomsday Device well before Star Trek.

In Strangelove, the SAC decoding device was the CRM 114.  Does anybody remember the real device of the mid-1970's.  It was a comb with 26 rods with 10 settings each, for a code selection of 10 to the 26th power.
Paul Smith


Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2017, 09:39:00 PM »


I recall that episode.  Also the round ball of evil with the blue tooth appendages applied to various 2nd Gen folks. "Dammit Jim!"   LL~ Steve
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General Mattis.

Offline Vincent Judd

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2017, 10:00:19 AM »

   The Shark RTFs ARE NOT LEGAL FOR BOM and will not be permitted. The Shark "kits" such as those supplied to Orestes are OK.

Just wondering..........how does someone go about purchasing one of these "Shark Kits"?  I've searched all over the Yatsenko website and found no details pertaining to any "kits".[/size][/size]


 
 
 

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2017, 04:01:11 AM »
Of course it's totally silly, but if you ask they will supply you just the molded half-shells with necessary hardware.
Building like that is like sheeting a foam wing without the foam cradles. It's not impossible but hard work to make things straight.
Maybe your rules have also something to say about the white surface finishing the components have as they pop out from mould. It does not give the final surface finish as some people seem to think, but it's very important as it's much easier to clean a smooth, even surface before finishing. If it were only the glass cloth, you would have about a million pinholes. If you try to de-grease that, the solvent & sanding will push the remains of wax/mould release deeper into the skin. L

Offline RandySmith

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2017, 11:09:43 AM »
Of course it's totally silly, but if you ask they will supply you just the molded half-shells with necessary hardware.
Building like that is like sheeting a foam wing without the foam cradles. It's not impossible but hard work to make things straight.
Maybe your rules have also something to say about the white surface finishing the components have as they pop out from mould. It does not give the final surface finish as some people seem to think, but it's very important as it's much easier to clean a smooth, even surface before finishing. If it were only the glass cloth, you would have about a million pinholes. If you try to de-grease that, the solvent & sanding will push the remains of wax/mould release deeper into the skin. L

So what is the  white finish  that is on the models ?  I thought when using  gelcoat type finish, you would spray it onto the mold, then lay the glass in after spraying the colored gelcoat type  finish

Randy

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2017, 11:22:26 AM »
They spray 2-component acrylic white in mould for the said even surface, but the final finish is sprayed afterwards in a normal way.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #56 on: December 26, 2017, 12:25:16 PM »
They spray 2-component acrylic white in mould for the said even surface, but the final finish is sprayed afterwards in a normal way.

So you are saying it has  2  coats  of  2 part catalyzed epoxy on it ?   one sprayed in the mold , then another  sprayed  after  it is take out ??    I have seen pics of them coming out of the mold  with a bright white  solid finish , and people  who build parts like this in the  US   get a very good finish  as it comes out  without   any holes in the  part

Randy

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #57 on: December 26, 2017, 04:18:16 PM »
Yep, except it's not white epoxy  but acrylic. It's lighter than trying to get ready surfaces straight from mould, and seams are not visible.
I don't know about the quality of pictures you have seen, but the surface of them raw parts are far from perfect.
And, you must assemble the cheeks, cowl, fin, canopy, pants etc. so there is lots of ugly seams to hide.
Normally the quality of my finishing of these kits is better than Andreys or Yuriy's but it's quite hard work. In my opinion it would be easier to start finishing raw wood surfaces. L

Offline RandySmith

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2017, 04:54:36 PM »
I have taken  acetone and wiped  the white before  and it does not go anywhere, I have never seen an acrylic that is tough enough  to withstand acetone, unless  you have  2 part catalyzed, and that has to be  heavy, The other   RTF models  like  KAZ Minato's  Blue Max , you can do the  same, after you paint it, if you want to change, you can just wipe the finish off with acetone , and you will have a perfectly clean white surface, that was    unaffected  from the acetone, to start with for a new color finish, so obviously some of these are coming with a nice white base  to start  with.
The Silver base and  blue black  on yours  is  very striking, and a  great color scheme.

Since you have got them and finished Sharks, how bad are the  seams  after you put them together?

Randy

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2017, 08:04:55 AM »
And, you must assemble the cheeks, cowl, fin, canopy, pants etc. so there is lots of ugly seams to hide.
Normally the quality of my finishing of these kits is better than Andreys or Yuriy's but it's quite hard work. In my opinion it would be easier to start finishing raw wood surfaces. L

       In any case, all this absurd effort to get an airplane starts to sound rather crazy when you can just build one conventionally in about the same time. The advantage to the Shark is that it is RTF, and close-to-correctly trimmed "out-of-the -box",  not that it is some super-advanced extreme performer. Once you build it from a "kit", you introduce the same errors you have all the rest of the time, so you are back to square one on that. It's very well-engineered and has some well-considered methods to make it come apart, but if you are not going to the WC, that's a minor consideration.

     From a strictly performance standpoint, there are plenty of designs that are equal or superior.

     Just build an airplane, it's not that hard. I manage it and I live in a one- bedroom apartment.

       Brett

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2017, 11:31:10 AM »
Randy,
I don't know about paint chemistry, but what I mean in 2 component acrylic car paint. Technically right or wrong, I guess that's what you mean by "2 part catalyzed". And yes, it is allmost everything-proof.
For final paintjob they use the same, or normal automotive 2-coat system with 1 component colour and 2 component clear. I prefer all 2 component, from start to finish.
I can try to find a picture of the mould seam if you want. Another note is that it's good to add a reinforcing strip of glassfiber to all critical seams on outside too, they also need to be hidden before paint.
Please Brett, I hope the rant was not aimed to me, I just provided strictly technical info without criticizing your rules. Don't shoot the messenger. L

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2017, 12:54:35 PM »
Wing of mine last Max Bee is also from 2 side mold and it has nice surface which does not need further work (if you do not expect highly polished surface). However it still shows separation line, which is not visible on Yatsenko wing, so that is clear sign that wing was sprayed after removing from the mold.

But I do not think that even sprayed after molding it has more work to finish (also in case that it does not have color sprayed in mold) compared to balsa wing, I think balsa wing needs much more sanded layers to gain nice surface compared to molded wing which gives straight and smooth surface.

Picture shows mold and wing with clearly visible separation line which is visible also after sanding to surface and will disapear only after some color layer. 

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2017, 08:38:13 PM »
What?! Your 401K must be astronomical!
Chris...

       

     Just build an airplane, it's not that hard. I manage it and I live in a one- bedroom apartment.

       Brett

Offline Joseph Patterson

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2018, 04:16:24 PM »
Beware of terminology differences here.  To a lot of folks "enforcing the BOM rule" specifically means allowing or not allowing one to compete at all (i.e., Open/Senior/Junior stunt as at the Nats).  Awarding appearance points based on the BOM gets a different description.

And yes, awarding appearance points or not is up to the CD, and it's regional.  I can never remember what they do in central or south-central states, but the east coast pretty much doesn't, and the west coast pretty much does (they'd face mutiny if they didn't).
       In District 8 contests C/L clubs and  CD's choose to have appearance pts. This covers the areas of LA,. TX, AR., OK., & N.M. Since I have moved from LA. to GA. now I'm in DV. As far as I have observed recently most contests in DV have not done appearance pts. However, in our first ever Canton, GA. CONTEST (Aug. 4, 5, 2018) we will have appearance pts. in 3 OF 5 EVENTS. No appearance pts. in PROFILE UNLIMITED, OTS, and of course none in Beginner. The flyer for the CANTON, GA. contest will be out in a few weeks. I'm trying to get the sanction application  by the hardest. Hell w/ the portal. Now going the conventional way.
       DOUG           

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2018, 06:59:42 PM »
       In District 8 contests C/L clubs and  CD's choose to have appearance pts. This covers the areas of LA,. TX, AR., OK., & N.M. Since I have moved from LA. to GA. now I'm in DV. As far as I have observed recently most contests in DV have not done appearance pts. However, in our first ever Canton, GA. CONTEST (Aug. 4, 5, 2018) we will have appearance pts. in 3 OF 5 EVENTS. No appearance pts. in PROFILE UNLIMITED, OTS, and of course none in Beginner. The flyer for the CANTON, GA. contest will be out in a few weeks. I'm trying to get the sanction application  by the hardest. Hell w/ the portal. Now going the conventional way.
       DOUG           

Thanks for that info.  I wish I had a map of which regions do appearance points always, which sometimes and which never.  Mostly because I occasionally see confusion by folks who think that how it's done in their backyard is how it's done everywhere.  (How it's done here is absolutely the best, by the way.  Just sayin'...)
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Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2018, 05:03:58 AM »


The Next Generation book "Vendetta" added much to the story of the Doomsday Machine...
Steve

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2018, 12:21:46 PM »
The Next Generation book "Vendetta" added much to the story of the Doomsday Machine...

   The Star Trek one, or Peabody himself?  The title would easily apply in either case.

    BTW, of all the CGI they have added for the reissued TOS, the only thing that doesn't look better than the original is the Doomsday machine - it looks like a tiny model and it's too short for the diameter. I think that was so they could fit it all on the screen at once, but it looks like a toy in CGI. Overall, the new effects are much better, but not that.

     Brett

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2018, 03:03:03 PM »
Thanks for that info.  I wish I had a map of which regions do appearance points always, which sometimes and which never.  Mostly because I occasionally see confusion by folks who think that how it's done in their backyard is how it's done everywhere.  (How it's done here is absolutely the best, by the way.  Just sayin'...)

Read the contest listing/flyer.  99% usually tell if there is appearance points or not. D>K
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2018, 03:57:36 PM »
       In District 8 contests C/L clubs and  CD's choose to have appearance pts. This covers the areas of LA,. TX, AR., OK., & N.M. Since I have moved from LA. to GA. now I'm in DV. As far as I have observed recently most contests in DV have not done appearance pts. However, in our first ever Canton, GA. CONTEST (Aug. 4, 5, 2018) we will have appearance pts. in 3 OF 5 EVENTS. No appearance pts. in PROFILE UNLIMITED, OTS, and of course none in Beginner. The flyer for the CANTON, GA. contest will be out in a few weeks. I'm trying to get the sanction application  by the hardest. Hell w/ the portal. Now going the conventional way.
       DOUG           

I look forward to hearing more about this contest.

Derek

Eric Viglione

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2018, 07:42:59 PM »
   The Star Trek one, or Peabody himself?  The title would easily apply in either case.

    BTW, of all the CGI they have added for the reissued TOS, the only thing that doesn't look better than the original is the Doomsday machine - it looks like a tiny model and it's too short for the diameter. I think that was so they could fit it all on the screen at once, but it looks like a toy in CGI. Overall, the new effects are much better, but not that.

     Brett

I think you can also thank going to widescreen from the old square format... I don't know if they reformatted it for WS or if some auto magic settings in your display could be turned off to watch unaltered (with black side bars) might have something to do with making it look "better"... just a guess, because it is so common, not because I know anything about this particular case.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2018, 11:05:04 PM »
I think you can also thank going to widescreen from the old square format... I don't know if they reformatted it for WS or if some auto magic settings in your display could be turned off to watch unaltered (with black side bars) might have something to do with making it look "better"... just a guess, because it is so common, not because I know anything about this particular case.

  Everything else looks normal, so I think it's just the CGI. Those nerds on the internet seem to have the same assessment:

https://trekmovie.com/2007/02/12/review-the-doomsday-machine-remastered/

   And you don't get any nerdier than Star Trek fans (David and Matt being particularly, er, "knowledgeable" on the topic of Trek - and that's ME talking...).


    Brett

Online Dennis Moritz

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2018, 06:35:32 AM »
14 points not too hard to get at the NATs. My B(uyer)O(f)M(odel) entrant got that last summer in Advanced. It was mistakenly awarded appearance points. A mistake I corrected by informing the CD that I didnít build it. The plane I bought was a nice looking plain Jane. Balsa grain still visible. Not filled. No shine. Balsa covered foam wing. Simple full fuselage. A competitive entrant probably within my building and finishing capabilities. Appearance points loom large wherever awarded. There are shortcuts to take within the rules. The time pressed and lesser skilled can work successfully within the BOM criteria. Take an ARC wing or bought planked foam wing ó start there. Fuselage not hard.


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Online Dennis Moritz

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2018, 06:47:09 AM »
Must be some kind of incompatibility issue with Iphones, Ipads Tapatalk and Sunthanger. I've had posts not show up.


Offline Wayne Collier

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2018, 09:21:54 PM »
The Doomsday Machine(s) were in Doctor Strangelove.


Different doomsday machine. The one in Star Trek consumed whole planets and used them to fuel itself. It fed on destruction.

Sorry,  couldn't ignore the irony.
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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2018, 05:19:20 PM »
Must be some kind of incompatibility issue with Iphones, Ipads Tapatalk and Sunthanger. I've had posts not show up.

That's not a glitch, it's a feature!  LL~

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2018, 07:14:41 AM »
We don't use appearance points at our Philly Contest. We give out ballots to all competitors and spectators and allow them to choose the prettiest plane. Works  for us!

Online Avaiojet

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2018, 08:36:31 AM »
We don't use appearance points at our Philly Contest. We give out ballots to all competitors and spectators and allow them to choose the prettiest plane. Works  for us!

Skip,

Good idea!

That worked for me at the WRAM show. 'Best Finish' picked by the thousands of spectators, not by just a hand full of buddies.

I just love putting this model up. Shows my abilities.  LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

All paint, no graphics or decals. And a two part auto clear.

Oh! And you cannot see a hinge.

Appearance points should NOT be applied to flight scores.

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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2018, 08:57:32 AM »

Appearance points should NOT be applied to flight scores.

I don't think that statement about appearance points fits the intent. Expecially after seeing what Expert class pilots who fly in the 600 point range can do.
I scored very well on appearance on two 100% monokote covered planes by people who had no idea who I am. They said they didn't care what it was finished in, it's about the workmanship.
My understanding of appearance points is this: it's a model airplane contest. It's about your model airplane, and then your ability to fly it. Which means you have to be able to tune and trim it. All of these things are incorporated into the contest. I'm not very good yet because I don't have all those abilities yet. But seeing those perfect looking airplanes, and then watching those guys fly brilliant patterns just makes me want it more. It's not a deterrent. It's motivation to be like those guys.
And, if you don't build your own, it's no big deal. You can still fly. You can fly and win. Plenty of people had ARF's or planes some one else built. No one even began to think poorly of that. It is just as welcome as anything else.

Online Avaiojet

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2018, 09:06:00 AM »
I don't think that statement about appearance points fits the intent. Expecially after seeing what Expert class pilots who fly in the 600 point range can do.
I scored very well on appearance on two 100% monokote covered planes by people who had no idea who I am. They said they didn't care what it was finished in, it's about the workmanship.
My understanding of appearance points is this: it's a model airplane contest. It's about your model airplane, and then your ability to fly it. Which means you have to be able to tune and trim it. All of these things are incorporated into the contest. I'm not very good yet because I don't have all those abilities yet. But seeing those perfect looking airplanes, and then watching those guys fly brilliant patterns just makes me want it more. It's not a deterrent. It's motivation to be like those guys.
And, if you don't build your own, it's no big deal. You can still fly. You can fly and win. Plenty of people had ARF's or planes some one else built. No one even began to think poorly of that. It is just as welcome as anything else.

Appearance points should NOT be applied to flight scores.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2018, 10:14:17 AM »
We don't use appearance points at our Philly Contest. We give out ballots to all competitors and spectators and allow them to choose the prettiest plane. Works  for us!


  That's a shame. But I guess the 50-60-70 people you get coming out every time more than makes up for it, right?

     Brett

Online Dennis Moritz

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AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2018, 10:54:16 AM »

  That's a shame. But I guess the 50-60-70 people you get coming out every time more than makes up for it, right?

     Brett

ARFs and ARCs revitalized CL Stunt. Probably why many clubs modified or ditched the inclusion of appearance points in flight scores. PAMPA skill classes are one structure for this approach.


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« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 12:38:15 PM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2018, 08:11:18 PM »

  That's a shame. But I guess the 50-60-70 people you get coming out every time more than makes up for it, right?

     Brett

Oddly enough, the Philly contest doesn't draw as many ARFs as you would think.  In my experience most of the airplanes are built, not bought.  That doesn't mean alot of front row machines are there though-its a diabolically tough place to fly being surrounded by tree lines on all sides (reference the destruction of Banjocks Suzy Q, Vista and Craven on that field).  The best ARF at the Philly contest would have to be Peabody's green Superclown from a few years ago.  He built it the night before, in true ARF fashion.  The first official is something like a 16 minute over run... the second flight, the flaps decide to part company with the plane in mid maneuver.  I never knew a Clown could end up in so many pieces!
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Online Dennis Moritz

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AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2018, 10:39:30 PM »
The Benjamin Rush site for PAMPA events is about as straight air as you get on the East Coast. The tree line is back far enough, not a factor. Neshaminy is a test. Trees on three sides. Often turbulence differs as one approaches overhead. In 2017 Neshaminy was challenging. Old Time and profile flown there. No crashes. All flights clean.

Banjok's crashes were not a function of weird winds blowing. His Raven hit a tree limb. The Vista crashes were a function of still air turbulence. The fat wing generating lots of vacuum. The plane was sucked down.

Local fields usually have challenges. Flying at Neshaminy has served me well. Dealing with it taught me. Most contests look flyable even when folks bail.


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« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 10:56:26 PM by Dennis Moritz »

Online Dennis Moritz

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2018, 11:24:10 PM »
The Benjamin Rush site for PAMPA events is about as straight air as you get on the East Coast. The tree line is back far enough, not a factor. Neshaminy is a test. Trees on three sides. Often turbulence differs as one approaches overhead. In 2017 Neshaminy was challenging. Old Time and profile flown there. No crashes. All flights clean.

Banjok's crashes were not a function of weird winds blowing. His Raven hit a tree limb. The Vista crashes were a function of still air turbulence. The fat wing generating lots of vacuum. The plane was sucked down.

Local fields usually have challenges. Flying at Neshaminy has served me well. Dealing with it taught me. Most contests look flyable even when folks bail.


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Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #84 on: February 01, 2018, 05:13:56 PM »
 Brett ,eventhough we don't do the Appearance judging at our meet we still get  magnificent entries showing up. There are some ARFs but I'd say last year 95% of the planes were either kit built or scratch built. The competitors take pride in their stuff.
Regarding the Neshaminy field ,yes it can be challenging at times being that there are tree lines on three sides. Having said that,STUNT is not for sissies, and most of the contestants deal with it and put on their "big boy pants". Those that don't,......well....  we tell them to take up stamp collecting. Hey, we're tough,remember this is a Philly meet (GO BIRDS!)
As Dennis said ( I call him "BIG D"....that adds street creed) our Benjamin Rush Site (Pampa) is flown out in the open on the R/C runway. Beautiful straight air. Even I look good out there!......Philly Skip

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #85 on: February 01, 2018, 05:56:53 PM »
Brett ,eventhough we don't do the Appearance judging at our meet we still get  magnificent entries showing up.

And I thought that the reason you donít send me results for Stunt News is that youíre ashamed of them.
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Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #86 on: February 01, 2018, 07:13:35 PM »
Howard, that was an oversight,sorry.Remember, I'm an old fart and am easily sidetracked.I was probably thinking about something Dennis or Bret had said to each other and was pissing myself!  I'll make sure that we get you this year's results. Do you still want the 2017 results?

....and yes, we are very much ashamed of our models,and we would not want anyone ,anywhere in the stunt community to see the hideousness of the models that compete at the Philly meet. On a personal note, I'm going to stop working on my latest stunt ships and take up a new hobby up like collecting "plastic food".You know, the type you used to see under glass at your local Horn and Hardart restaurant or at the food counter at Kresge's 5 & 10 cent store......BTW Go Birds, Eagles all the way!

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #87 on: February 01, 2018, 08:31:05 PM »
Do you still want the 2017 results?

Yes, please, assuming I donít have them, and itís possible that I do.

Howard
(an old fart from Philadelphia myself)
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Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #88 on: February 01, 2018, 08:39:01 PM »
I believe we posted them here either on the main forum or in the section for contest results threads. I know that I never sent them to Stunt News as I was not a Pampa member . Is Pampa now open to join? I read to hold off until something was tightened up with the web site???  BTW where did you live as a Philly resident?

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: AMA rules and Yatsenko's models
« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2018, 12:44:21 AM »
Wynnewood. I left in 1948. My wife has kinfolks in Glen Mills and somewhere near New Hope.

The Jive Combat Team
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