Author Topic: New kits for an Old event (Read 2544 times)

Bill Little · « **on:** July 04, 2007, 10:27:14 PM »

Hi All,

I'm curious. There was a popular racing event called Foxberg. I guess it still exists out there, but the Goldberg planes, at least the kits, have been OOP for many years. And the Fox 35 does take some time to get familiar with. As I understood it, this was sort of an entry level racing event. But is it still being run in it's original form anywhere?

I might be just to "old timey", but I am personally of the idea that the event was a good idea.

Now...... the kits are available again, Cosmic Wind "Little Tony", Shoestring, and Buster. They are now made by Brodak, but from the looks of them, they are dimensionally the same as the Goldberg kit. Some construction methods have changed, but they all seem to build up just fine.

Does anyone out there think there wold be interest in having a resurrection of this "class"? The OS 25LA could be substituted for the Fox 35 as is being done already it seems. EDIT: Engines would have to be "stock", out of the box.

My idea might be a *little* different as to the finish on the plane, however. I would like to see the planes finish have to be a replica of an actual Good Year racing plane. There were 3 different paint schemes (#3, #4, #5) for the Cosmic Wind(s) in it's original form. The Shoestring has sported a few different paint schemes. And with very minor changes, the Buster becomes the earlier Bonzo.

It all goes back to my idea of a "Scale Racing" event, that would emphasize
racing and not engines or plane design. Rules would be very limiting in their scope.

Any ideas on this? (good or bad)

Thanks!
Bill <><

John Paris · « **Reply #1 on:** July 04, 2007, 11:01:37 PM »

Bill,
I am kind of partial to the Fox 35 as the engine for this event. It would also sound funny to call it Osberg. The paint schemes for the original racers would make it nice as well. I liked how Dan Banjock even had wheelpants on his Cosmic Wind. It did not seem to help out when the inboard wing was blown out though.

My logic on the Fox engine is that it has been in production for 55 years so there are plenty out there and more being made. How long did the Max, FP and will the LAs run? People say that they are not as user friendly as the OS, but I cannot say that after you learn the engine that it is difficult to start and run. Some hot restart better than others, but I am willing to venture that this is more a matter of pitting technique than engine issue. Have I had a Fox that was difficult to restart? Sure. Bet you don't find it on my racer....

Grace likes to drag out the racer whenever there is an event she can enter. We have not done too many, but I do like the Foxberg (and Skyray 35) racing. Good planes, readily available engine and loads of fun.

John

Paul Smith · « **Reply #2 on:** July 05, 2007, 05:25:18 AM »

Current Brodak rules have drawn good interest to this event. Basically, the equipment allowed is:

Five airplanes: Shoestring, Buster, Cosmic Wind, Flite Streak, and Lightning Streak.

Three engines: Fox 35 Stunt, LA 25, and Brodak 25.

At the most recent race, 3 Foxes and one LA qualified for the final. Unfortunately for the sponser, none of his engines qualifed. Perhaps somebody will get some going by next year.

------------------------------------------
In Ontario & Michigan, we fly pretty much the same event, with just LA 25's and any sport plane you bring.
-----------------------
At the AMA Nats, they're running two such events, one for the Fox 35 Stunt, and another for 25's.

Leonard Rennick · « **Reply #3 on:** July 05, 2007, 09:39:30 AM »

As an "entry level event" why would you force someone to use a Fox 35. As noted, some will restart hot. As an entry level event you shouldn't have sort through your collection of Fox 35's to find one that will restart. Oh you don't have a colletion of Foxes to go though. So your next choice would be to pay someone to cherry pick parts, and build you one. I do like the idea of the racing planes and paint schemes, and Brodak's rules on engine choices. I would also add the FP25 as a choice.

Just my two cents.

Leonard

rustler · « **Reply #4 on:** July 05, 2007, 03:18:03 PM »

Changing the subject a little (sorry) we could have a similar event here in England, a MercMerc event. Merco 29/35 engine, Mercury Viper profile kit. Would I build one? Sure, but it would be nearer the end of my short list of over 100 models I must build one day.

don Burke · « **Reply #5 on:** July 05, 2007, 03:39:05 PM »

"...why force someone to use a FOX 35...."
Exactly the reason the 25s have become popular in the events originally started for the FOX. The biggest problems I found with FOXes was the vibration tearing the airplane apart, and the longevity of the P/L fit. The currently available 25s are a lot more user friendly.

Bill Little · « **Reply #6 on:** July 05, 2007, 06:16:46 PM »

Quote from: ama21835 on July 05, 2007, 05:25:18 AM

Current Brodak rules have drawn good interest to this event. Basically, the equipment allowed is:

Five airplanes: Shoestring, Buster, Cosmic Wind, Flite Streak, and Lightning Streak.

Three engines: Fox 35 Stunt, LA 25, and Brodak 25.

At the most recent race, 3 Foxes and one LA qualified for the final. Unfortunately for the sponser, none of his engines qualifed. Perhaps somebody will get some going by next year.

------------------------------------------
In Ontario & Michigan, we fly pretty much the same event, with just LA 25's and any sport plane you bring.
-----------------------
At the AMA Nats, they're running two such events, one for the Fox 35 Stunt, and another for 25's.

Hmmmmm......... other than allowing the Flite Streak and Lightning Streak, it is what I had in mind with the adoption of scale paint schemes.

Engines: Those seem like a comparable trio if keep stock. ??

Maybe I can catch the races when I am in Muncie.

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #7 on:** July 05, 2007, 07:55:08 PM »

The Dayton Buzzin' Buzzards ran FoxBerg in its essential form for a number of years. The program resulted in some of the best model plane racing I've enjoyed. As for Fox horror stories, they didn't exist. Our engines were carefully broken-in box stock. No blueprinting. No parts swapping. Our fuel was 10% Nitro / 25% Bakers AA Castor. Castor is the key. Gotta purge the heat out the exhaust. Synthetics don't seem to work. Read George Moir(?). He made the Fox hustle and live. The races became so competitive that any more than a one flip start with one flip pits put you out of contention. I guess it is a bit like racing Ford flatheads or maybe an Offy at Indy. But...we live in a free market, if racers have tired of the Fox then so be it.

Bob Heywood
Dayton, OH

Leonard Rennick · « **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2007, 10:11:53 AM »

To add to my previous post. One additional problem here in AZ with the Fox is, the fuel supplied at the meets which is 10, 10, and 10. Not near enough lube for a Fox.

Leonard

john e. holliday · « **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2007, 07:23:17 PM »

The first I heard of racing only with a Fox 35 Stunt was when Wichita, Kansas Whichahawks start an event called Shoestring racing. The rules were very specific on what could be used. No specification on the color scheme other than it must resemble a racing scheme. They did allow a newbie to use Ringmaster, but, it had to follow all the other rules required. They also stated that the entrant had to fly his/her own airplane. They now allow the Brodak replicas as they are the same plane with different construction techniques. We have even scratch built Showstrings. But, as far as Foxy Racing, how can you call it Foxy Racing if it aint a Fox?

As with any racing event it takes practice. Fox 35 Stunts do not vibrate when broken in correctly. Have fun, DOC Holliday

Ron Belcourt · « **Reply #10 on:** July 07, 2007, 12:38:42 AM »

One other problem with using an OS. It appears that some of the early versions came with by-pass ports as opposed to the single port configuration. Does this mean that you have to buy several 25's to find the more desired version ( rather than going with something that has been standardized for roughly 1/2 a century ) or do you compete with the engine you just bought and hope like hades that someone else hasn't gone exploring and found the prize engine. They are both stock, so they are both legal- one just has more grunt from the factory compared to the other. More regulations and possibly more headaches with enforcing said rules.
The fox we ran was strong (can't say the same for the pilots pitman-me) and restarted with one or two flips consistently. It took more than a few practice sessions to get the system worked out, but there is no reason that a beginner couldn't do it. We all start some place and we found that the experienced racers were more than willing to help us out, including mock races so that the pilot got used to flying in traffic and the pitman got used to the idea of planes going by his head when they ran out of fuel. Great times and now there is some talk of restarting .35 racing around here on a very limited scale.

Bill Little · « **Reply #11 on:** July 07, 2007, 05:04:59 AM »

HI Ron,

Interesting observations.

I have always looked at Foxberg (or whatever you want to call it) as an entry level class to racing. In entry level classes, my feelings are not "who wins" but getting people involved. A "learning curve" so to speak. The other classes of racing can fulfill the hard core "winners" needs.

It seems to me that a class that offers some semblance to actual scale racers (hence the scale paint schemes required) with a choice of available engines is a way to introduce racing to "beginners". Making the rules very, very strict will give the "hot shots" the ability to fly, but give a raw beginner a chance to mix it up without the equipment becoming such a factor. The beginners will get a chance to see what it takes to be competitive in real racing classes,

My thoughts on the "scale color schemes" is a possibility of drawing in more people. Many of us enjoy flying a plane that actually looks like a real one.

I see a person buying a Brodak "Goldberg" Profile Good Year racer kit, putting one of a few "spec" engines on it, painting it up like the real plane and then being able to fly knowing that the equipment, "at least" will be competitive. There is enough intimidation getting involved in a new venue without having to get the state of the art equipment.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #12 on:** July 09, 2007, 02:14:42 PM »

I think the promoters of the racing lounge acts at this year's AMA Nats have the right idea:

Two Events

One for just Fox 35 Stunts, and,,,,,

One for any plain bearing 25 (except the Norvel BigMiG 25). I've never seen a BigMiG 25, but it must be one heck of an engine, to be excluded by name.

They used to run Fox 35 Stunts on the Michigan-Ontario circuit, but a lot of guys got tired of the same few people winning all the time and getting "miracle" speed and restarts. So the event died and was replaced with LA 25, which has been a big success.

When Brodak opened up to the 25's, there was a lot of complaint from die-hard Fox fans, but when the smoke cleared, Foxes still won the race.

Personally I'd like to see TWO events :

"Brodak Foxberg", with the five airfames, just Foxes, two wheels, and no shutoffs.

25 Sport Race with any PB 25 (cept the MiG), any sport sport plane, any landing gear, and shuttoffs.

That would satisfy both those who love the Fox and those who can't stand them.

I'll test the theory Wednesday in Muncie.

don Burke · « **Reply #13 on:** July 09, 2007, 02:51:19 PM »

Big Mig IS a killer engine. In tests prior to the adoption of the NCLRA/SSR rules, it was about 2 sec in 7 laps faster than any other checked. Since noone wanted to set up an "unobtainium engine" class, it was felt to be better to exclude it until perhaps something came along with equal performance. So far, in two years, nothing. Interesting to note, on the West Coast, the 25s in general are faster than the FOXES in, of course, the same airplanes.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2007, 06:47:29 PM »

Quote from: don Burke on July 05, 2007, 03:39:05 PM

"...why force someone to use a FOX 35...."
Exactly the reason the 25s have become popular in the events originally started for the FOX. The biggest problems I found with FOXes was the vibration tearing the airplane apart, and the longevity of the P/L fit.

To my knowlege, nobody was actually forced at gunpoint or even subjected to the vailed threat of force to use a Fox 35 Stunt in racing or combat. However, when Stunt was taken over by bigger, more powerful, and more expensive engines with tuned pipes, mufflers, and ball bearings, there was a glut of still-heathy Fox 35's in homeless shelters, resale shops, and Humane Society holding pens.

These events were created as an opportunty to allow these engines to live out their useful lives.

But that was a thing of a past millenium. Today we need a program to employ the refuges of the F2d rules purges. Perhaps in a few years, all piston engines will be in need of retirement events.

-----------------------------

ps:
Whenever somebody writes new event rules in a general sense, it always decodes to one specific engine anyway, so now we just cut the the chase and call the engine by name.

don Burke · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2007, 09:43:50 PM »

I was never "forced at gunpoint" to use a FOX 35, but when the event is FOX race, it's pretty hard to use something else! At the time that I first built a FOX racer I had to buy an engine since I had never owned a FOX stunt 35, although I did use others, Combat Special, 19, 15. Once having used the Stunt 35 I found out why so many were available and cheap!

David Miller · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2008, 08:48:36 PM »

I really like what Paul Smith said in post #12. Makes the most sense to get everybody involved with the motors and planes people currently want to fly. Fox all togather and the other ones seperate. I could put a .25 on my Superfli and it would'nt fall apart.

Scott Jenkins · « **Reply #17 on:** January 22, 2008, 07:32:13 AM »

Ummmmm, Yes, No, Maybe,

Yes, A scale appearance, good paint jobs, and a variety of models to choose from. These things add a lot of color to the event.

No, Limiting it to a Fox 35, there are too many good 25's out there to choose from.

Maybe, this is from a racers stand point and the items your non stunt type pitman would think of right off the bat and may need to be clarified in the rules.
The use of: Hot gloves, pressurized fueling systems, hand laid carbon props $$$.

All in all this may be the next good event to replace the Foxberg, SSR, but clarifacation will be necessary. Want more young blood to appear make it Fun, competitive, with a set of rules that will leave no loop holes for an advantage over the beginner.

Scott

john e. holliday · « **Reply #18 on:** January 23, 2008, 08:56:28 AM »

Check your AMA rules proposals for racing. They are finally waking up and trying to get Slow Rat going again. The main thing is lowering the engine size to a 25. Now it would be nice if they required scale looking planes. Of course I guess we have that already with B-Team Race. DOC Holliday

Bill Little · « **Reply #19 on:** February 01, 2008, 04:17:14 PM »

In my own, somewhat feeble it seems, brain, I feel that there should be a direct tie to a *scale* aspect. People build *scale models* all the time! Just look at the plastic kits available.

So, my idea is requiring a model of a plane that actually raced! No matter what, a Skyray never was flown in a real racing event.

As to engines, stock, and

?? I wouldn't restrict it to a Fox 35 at all, since there are those who would rather use a different make of engine. Why rule them out?

The three *Goldberg* kits produced now by Brodak, and any other *real racing plane* (Bonzo, Rivets, etc, ) in roughly the same *scale*. Intended as an event to draw NEW racing pilots and builders. Hopefully the *pros* would be shamed out of flying!

Clayton Smith · « **Reply #20 on:** February 01, 2008, 07:44:05 PM »

Bill, I must differ with you about "shaming" experienced "pros" out of an event. The experienced flyers are the people needed to sustain an event and serve to guide and develop the newcomer. Leaving it to the newcomers alone leads to carnage and unsafe flying.

Regarding scale models, as you know, I am strongly in favor. The scale Golden Age Racing venue is the best example.

Clayton Smith
High Point, NC

john e. holliday · « **Reply #21 on:** February 02, 2008, 10:17:40 AM »

The thing that I think that controlled the speeds in the Wichihawks Shoestring racing was they stated what commercial prop could be used. Fuel was supplied by the contest organizer. Planes had to be built as close to the kit as possible. 2 inch wheels minimum. 1 and 3/4 spinner. As the old Fox 1 ounce tank can't be found any more, tank size is limited to one ounce. No hot gloves or fast fills. Must fill thru 1/8 inch dia. tube in tank. I have tried to get them to allow Shut-offs mainly for safety, even it would help when an engine goes off note during flight. Also the lines are .018 cable 60 feet center of plane to center of handle +or- 6 inches. tried to get them to eliminate the - portion. Later, DOC Holliday

don Burke · « **Reply #22 on:** February 02, 2008, 04:05:58 PM »

For the last two years SCAR has allowed shutoffs on any airplane at our races. If one is used during a race where shutoffs are not allowed, the entrant is DQ'd from that heat or final. So far no problemos. We've even had someone DQ himself when he knew the shutoff had been hit even though it was incidental, seems he had set it up too sensistive and the pilot hit it accidentally after zooming on a takeoff into the wind.

Dalton Hammett · « **Reply #23 on:** June 02, 2008, 02:00:12 PM »

My grandson and I entered the Foxberg event at Brodaks last year and had a great time. I have to agree with those who feel that a Foxberg race pretty much indicates a Fox engine. We were told we were at a disadvantage due to the Fox .35s inherent restart problems - but - if I remember correctly the newer flyers with the Fox .35s
were the ones to watch. Maby the .35 is a good thing as it keeps everyone equal and learning.

I don't understand the plane options, I can see the three standard racers, but if a flyte streak is ok, why not any
similar sized profile

Dalton H.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #24 on:** June 02, 2008, 03:05:55 PM »

If the rules could be standerdised to kits or designs of comparable wing area and look like an airplane instead of what was/is used for slow rat. Of course there could be speed limit imposed, but, the die hards would raise cane. One of our local race tracks have a class of racers that have a speed limit on the cars. Seen guys/gals disqualified for being too fast during the race. They are only timing the top 6 or 7 race cars. Yes I have seen the 3rd place car moved to first because the others went too fast. Sure make the pilots let the plane fly instead of leading them during the race. DOC Holliday

Scott Jenkins · « **Reply #25 on:** June 04, 2008, 07:18:39 AM »

Guys,
Here is a set of rules used for an event in England for consideration they are very straight forward and concise.
The engine could be changed to a Brodak 25 and achieve the same results, along with the line length and prop size.

Scott

Racing.

Race conduct will be in accordance with those set down in B.M.F.A. general team race rules.
Teams may consist of up to 3 people.
Heats to consist of 75 laps.
Final to consist of 150laps.
Warm up at start to be 1 minute.
Cool down/adjustment to be 30 seconds.
The control system will be subject to a pull test of 20x the model weight.
A strap attaching the pilot’s wrist to the handle must be fitted during all flights.

Other than for safety reasons, the rules for Barton B Team Racing may only be altered with the approval of the Barton Model Club.

Model Specification.
· Any class B or scaled up class A model design, published before the end of
December1965.Scale models or original designs along contemporary pre1965.
· Models shall have a clear cockpit and carry a pilot.
· Minimum projected wing area outside of the fuselage area will be 8 sq.dm. (125 sq ins.).
· Maximum fuel capacity will be 30cc.
· Minimum depth of the fuselage at the cockpit measured from the top of the pilots head, to the bottom of the fuselage, will be 95.25mm (3.7501 ins).
· Minimum width of the fuselage at the cockpit shall be 50.80mm (2.0ins)
· Conventional two-wheel undercarriage to be used with minimum wheel diameter of 44.47mm (1.75ins).
· No hot glove connection and only hand held squeeze bottle fuelling.
· 30cc fuel tank.
· A working fuel-shut off must be fitted and may be used in the race.
· The use of modern materials in high stress areas to improve safety and longevity is permissible- but all moulded Kevlar/Carbon Epoxy etc models are not.
· Lines shall be 0.18 thou stranded wire 56 feet from the centre of the model to centre of the handle.
· Models shall be brightly coloured and have competition BMFA numbers at least 1” high on the outboard wing.
The Engine
· Any Irvine 25 standard glow plug motor. may be used, with a factory made “Barton B” venturi.
· Only the red/gold anodised Irvine venturi can be used. (This can be ordered
as part nos. IRV 20-3240).
· No modifications blue printing or specialized bearings can be used.
· A small amount may be machined off the exhaust stack to allow easier installation but the engine must still be capable of having the original silencer mounted by the original means.
· Additional head shims may be fitted to adjust the compression ratio. (Ordered as part nos. IRV25-3065).
· Propellers must be either APC or Graupner 8X8 no mods are allowed except to balance (one blade only)
· Fuel will be 10%nitro synthetic oil as supplied by the manufacturer (Irvine). All competitors will use the same fuel as supplied on race days.

Dalton Hammett · « **Reply #26 on:** June 04, 2008, 09:55:47 AM »

Looks like a great set of rules for pros but it wouldn't bring out the entry level flyers. Too many restrictions
on the plane, ie thicknesses, clear canopy with pilot.

Dalton H.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #27 on:** June 12, 2008, 07:28:35 PM »

To me, the strict restrictions is what makes for an entry level racing event. Engines that are easily available most of the time. Numerous plans to choose from. No hot glove or pressure refueling is a plus also. That is why the Whichihawks Shoestring event was so good at one time. The lack of promotion is what has been the decline of the event and loss of some required equipment that used to be manufactured. Myself, I am still trying to work out the shutoff on the "Redskin" I am working on. Later, DOC Holliday

roger · « **Reply #28 on:** June 20, 2008, 11:43:07 AM »

looks like a nascar rule book where the fun?

roger

roger · « **Reply #29 on:** June 20, 2008, 11:46:20 AM »

hear hear

roger