Author Topic: My only real problem with Team, ‘Goodyear’ and Rat Racing… (Read 12275 times)

beercamel · « **on:** December 17, 2017, 06:35:04 PM »

The requirement for stops to refuel.. start and launch again..

Yes I know its TEAM racing.. BUT do you know how difficult it is to find somebody to fly with?

When I was a kid and into Goodyear and Rat I had many friends who would always be available for completive meets.. I never lacked for a pit man and I did my share of pit work also.. BUT.. as an adult.. with real responsibilities, career, family, and real life commitments.. finding somebody who wants to spend time catching a model airplane for me is impossible.. (Nope the wife is NOT interested at all!).. so the three ‘Goodyear’ models hanging in my barn sit unraced..
Why is there a ‘pit’ requirement for ‘Goodyear’ racing? Real F1 aircraft don’t pit so why do we? If there was no requirement to stop then ‘stooges’ could be used for races when manpower is short.. Has anybody ever discussed no pit ‘Goodyear’ with additional grading other than plain speed, like carrier or stunt? Have a no stop race with additional grading for scale looks and build quality? I think it woul make ‘Goodyear’ more popular and accessible..

I can almost understand requiring pits in ‘Rat’ but even there I think a race without pits would be fun if conducted correctly..

What does everybody think?

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #1 on:** December 17, 2017, 07:39:24 PM »

Suggest you read the following history of the beginning of Team Racing: http://www.go-cl.se/trh/ks1.html

For C/L, without the pit stops there wouldn't be much going on. The full size racers have to be flown around the course. Doing that right takes a lot of talent.

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #2 on:** December 18, 2017, 06:48:16 AM »

We in Middlesex are very fortunate to have an active club that has a long tradition of racing. Over the years we have created and tweaked events to suit our members needs. Currently our most popular event is a modified clown race that limits top speed and number of laps. Yes, it is watered down but it is within the abilities of our people. Unfortunately, because of age, we can no longer keep up with the 'real racers from the good old days' although some of our guys have been fierce competitors and champs at the Nats and other venues. Fortunately we still have several meets a year with decent turnouts that we enjoy flying at and with our pals.
As our numbers slowly dwindle we are increasingly grateful to be able to enjoy our lifelong passion with like minded modelers. I hope you will be able to get someone to fly with even if you are just able to fire them up and blast around the circle

TS

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #3 on:** December 18, 2017, 11:07:41 AM »

Well, I think it is a bad idea, Get dizzy just thinking about it. Have you attended any local racing events? (By local I mean within 300 miles or so). My guess is that if you show up with useable racers, some pit equipment, and at least a passing familiarization of the rules you will find the other participants more than happy to fly or pit for you and give you tips on how to do it safely. Not ideal but you will be racing. I am in a similar situation as you and this is what I have found.

BillLee · « **Reply #4 on:** December 18, 2017, 11:58:28 AM »

You'll ALWAYS find someone to help you in Dallas!

Come on down!

Paul Smith · « **Reply #5 on:** December 18, 2017, 12:40:00 PM »

One thing I like about racing is the "all hands on deck" situation. I show up single-handed with equipment and either pit, fly, or count laps in every race. If there are lots of people on hand, you might even be able to take pictures during some races.

Years ago, I created a race with slow combat planes in which the pilot had to come out and start his own engine, added only by a holder. It had somewhat of a following for a while, but it went down because some figured that it favored the more athletic pilots.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #6 on:** December 18, 2017, 04:11:37 PM »

As stated, if you have racing planes ready to go, do it. I too wanted to be a racing pilot, but about my second contest the gentleman pitting for me couldn't get my engine to start immediately and when it did he could not get it to restart at the pit stop. On the way home my Mother said I was doing it wrong. I asked what she meant and she replied, "You know your engines and there are plenty of pilots. At least there was in that period of time. So I became a pit man. Have lost count of how many pilots I've had. Of course in F2C I was limited to on one pilot because it is a team event. In that time Melvin Schuette, my son, JJ and I learned to fly plus pit for each other. Now I'm back to hoping to have a pilot when I show up to race even though Melvin would do it if we are not in the same heat. At my age I think I can still do a decent pit stop if the pilot gets the plane to me. As for piloting, the old knees won't take it any more. I still remember fly 6 up one time.

beercamel · « **Reply #7 on:** December 20, 2017, 04:45:30 PM »

Quote from: C.T. Schaefer on December 18, 2017, 06:48:16 AM

We in Middlesex are very fortunate to have an active club that has a long tradition of racing. Over the years we have created and tweaked events to suit our members needs. Currently our most popular event is a modified clown race that limits top speed and number of laps. Yes, it is watered down but it is within the abilities of our people. Unfortunately, because of age, we can no longer keep up with the 'real racers from the good old days' although some of our guys have been fierce competitors and champs at the Nats and other venues. Fortunately we still have several meets a year with decent turnouts that we enjoy flying at and with our pals.
As our numbers slowly dwindle we are increasingly grateful to be able to enjoy our lifelong passion with like minded modelers. I hope you will be able to get someone to fly with even if you are just able to fire them up and blast around the circle TS

GOOD FOR YOU GUYS!!... No.. GREAT for you guys !!.. This is exactly why I brought up this question..

beercamel · « **Reply #8 on:** December 20, 2017, 04:55:07 PM »

Quote from: Bob Heywood on December 17, 2017, 07:39:24 PM

Suggest you read the following history of the beginning of Team Racing: http://www.go-cl.se/trh/ks1.html

For C/L, without the pit stops there wouldn't be much going on. The full size racers have to be flown around the course. Doing that right takes a lot of talent.

I am fully aware of the history.. I began competing both Rat and Goodyear back around 1966.. I disagree with you on all points..

No pit stops with 3 or 4 aircraft would be just as much fun.. and add in grading and points for scale and build quality.. like stunt or carrier would make this very colorful..

Flying a 'real' F1 or biplane in a race like Reno is Does NOT take anything more than a private pilot with reasonable skills an a minimum of a couple hundred hours.. .. I speak from experience..

My point is I am NOT racing Goodyear OR Rat NOW because of a lack of anybody to 'play' with..

beercamel · « **Reply #9 on:** December 20, 2017, 05:04:55 PM »

Quote from: BillLee on December 18, 2017, 11:58:28 AM

You'll ALWAYS find someone to help you in Dallas!

Come on down!

Thanks Bill I will!

bill bischoff · « **Reply #10 on:** December 20, 2017, 07:52:07 PM »

You won't have to wait long. Our next contest is our rescheduled Labor Day contest, February 17/18, 2018. Full slate of racing on Saturday. Date may possibly move a week either way. We'll know for sure after New Year's. PM Bill Lee or myself for info.

Bill Bischoff

(Not that you need a contest. We fly racing practice/ testing almost every weekend if the weather is nice. Contact somebody ahead of time if you want to come down. We'll make sure we have enough people for some just-for-fun races.)

bill bischoff · « **Reply #11 on:** December 24, 2017, 09:22:53 PM »

Yes. You'll be surprised that it won't be any harder! It's about the doing, not the winning. More racers= more fun!

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #12 on:** December 26, 2017, 10:21:18 PM »

Quote from: beercamel on December 20, 2017, 04:55:07 PM

Flying a 'real' F1 or biplane in a race like Reno is Does NOT take anything more than a private pilot with reasonable skills an a minimum of a couple hundred hours.. .. I speak from experience..

By what you have written here you have no experience whatsoever.

beercamel · « **Reply #13 on:** December 27, 2017, 03:22:00 AM »

Quote from: Chris McMillin on December 26, 2017, 10:21:18 PM

By what you have written here you have no experience whatsoever.

What do mean by that.. ? I am guessing since your reply had nothing to with the topic of this thread.. You want to play troll! OK, I'll Play! I am on vacation and have the time..

If you are going to join with inflammatory statements.. then maybe you should do a little research before you post.. From the INTERNATIONAL FORMULA ONE PROCEDURE RULES, section 3.3

3.3 Pilot Certification

3.3.1 A competing pilot must be a National of the entering country or have been a resident for not less than 3 consecutive years

3.3.2 A competing pilot must have and be able to substantiate the following qualifications:
Current Pilots License-private or better

3.3.2.2 Current Medical Certificate-Class III or better

3.3.2.3 Current F1 Racing Pilot License

3.3.3 A competing pilot must have and be able to substantiate the following flying experience:

3.3.3.1 An absolute minimum of 100 hours pilot in command in fixed wing aircraft.

3.3.3.2 A minimum of 10 hours In a formula one aircraft type for every 100 hours short of 500 hours pilot in command in fixed wing aircraft.

3.3.3.3 A minimum of 10 hours In the same formula one aircraft type to be flown or 5 hours if already qualified in a different formula one aircraft type.

3.3.4.1 IF1 Racing Pilot License Demonstration:

C.Flight Observations

1. Aborted Start: Simulate an unassisted race start (no tail holder) and accelerate for approximately 300 feet before simulating an engine failure by closing the throttle. Bring the aircraft to a full stop without veering more than 20 feet either side of a straight line.
2. Race Start: Takeoff from a full stop at full throttle without veering more than l0 feet either side of a straight line.
3. Make three 180 degree turns of at least 60 degree bank at an altitude of 500 feet or higher at racing speeds without appreciable loss of altitude.
4. Demonstrate an aileron roll in each direction, followed by a half-roll to the left with a half-
roll to the right recovery. All without loss of altitude exceeding 50 feet.
5. Demonstrate three laps on the race course at racing speeds without climbing in turns.
6. Demonstrate formation flying ability and passing techniques on the race course.
7. Demonstrate a normal landing.
8. Demonstrate a simulated power-off landing from racing altitude and speed

So as I said...
Here is the complete document..

http://www.if1airracing.com/images/Documents/IF1_Procedure_Rules_8-07-07.pdf

pat king · « **Reply #14 on:** December 27, 2017, 11:41:40 PM »

Just because someone is an experienced pilot and can pass the requirements listed does NOT mean they are a competent race plane pilot. I watched a Lufthansa 747 command pilot kill himself in a Formula 1 racer. He lost an engine and neglected to remember that a tight turn without power can be fatal because the inboard wingtip is traveling slower than the fuselage or the outboard wingtip. Tip stall and spin from 200 foot elevation in a Formula 1 racer tends to be fatal.

Pat

beercamel · « **Reply #15 on:** December 28, 2017, 01:04:45 PM »

Quote from: pat king on December 27, 2017, 11:41:40 PM

Just because someone is an experienced pilot and can pass the requirements listed does NOT mean they are a competent race plane pilot. I watched a Lufthansa 747 command pilot kill himself in a Formula 1 racer. He lost an engine and neglected to remember that a tight turn without power can be fatal because the inboard wingtip is traveling slower than the fuselage or the outboard wingtip. Tip stall and spin from 200 foot elevation in a Formula 1 racer tends to be fatal.

Pat

Thank you for the reply.. but...

How is this related to the topic in this thread? I appreciate you reading my thread.. but I am not really interested in continuing this conversation here... Not why I posted it.. If you want to debate F1 Quals.. I would love to.. but open another thread.. and I will join you there..

The reason I replied to the post by Chris McMillin was he questioned my integrity and insinuated I am a liar.. THAT I WILL NOT TOLERATE.. He posted to accomplish nothing more than to insult. There is absolutely no other possible intent. I don't know from what experience he feels qualified to make a statement like he posted, because he conveniently omitted information that would explain his qualifications.. But I would BET his credentials are not anywhere close to mine.. which are Solo at 16, Private at 17.. Commercial at 19, ATP at 23..Commuter Airline Captain... then15 years flying USAF Fighters active and reserve, and I am beginning my 30th year with a major US international Airline.. I have OVER 14,000 in the AC I am currently a Captain in.. so Mr. McMillin's comment "By what you have written here you have no experience whatsoever. " is HIGHLY insulting and inflammatory..

I apologize to all the other readers who have nothing to do with this BS..

pat king · « **Reply #16 on:** December 28, 2017, 02:35:16 PM »

Back on topic,
I was at the NATS this year for SS Rat. There were not as many dedicated pit men as pilots. Many pilots were pilots for one heat and pit men for heats when they were not flying. I do not believe any pilot was unable to fly because of lack of a pit man. It would be ideal if all pilots had dedicated pit men who they could practice with. That being said I believe that if you can go to a venue where people are flying C/L Racing you will find people to pit for you. If you are isolated I can understand your frustration.

Pat

beercamel · « **Reply #17 on:** December 28, 2017, 03:09:55 PM »

Quote from: pat king on December 28, 2017, 02:35:16 PM

Back on topic,
I was at the NATS this year for SS Rat. There were not as many dedicated pit men as pilots. Many pilots were pilots for one heat and pit men for heats when they were not flying. I do not believe any pilot was unable to fly because of lack of a pit man. It would be ideal if all pilots had dedicated pit men who they could practice with. That being said I believe that if you can go to a venue where people are flying C/L Racing you will find people to pit for you. If you are isolated I can understand your frustration.

Pat

Pat,

Well.. THIS is my point exactly!!.. When I was a kid.. my Dad was my pit guy.. in my teens I had a bunch of friend who also flew and I had a dedicated pit guy.. The great thing about that was we were all generally into different aspect of C/L competition so we did not have scheduling problems.. My regular pit guy was into stunt.. so it worked well..

I wish it was as easy now!

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #18 on:** December 28, 2017, 04:40:56 PM »

There will be 5 days of Racing at the NATS - Part II, 30 July - 3 Aug. If you can break free, join the party.

beercamel · « **Reply #19 on:** December 28, 2017, 05:45:48 PM »

Quote from: Bob Heywood on December 28, 2017, 04:40:56 PM

There will be 5 days of Racing at the NATS - Part II, 30 July - 3 Aug. If you can break free, join the party.

Bob,

Believe me I will try! The BIG problem is it coincides with the EAA annual convention and I have my recurrent Sim training July-Aug, so my time off is at a premium.. But believe me I WILL try.. I won't know until my July flying schedule is published in June..

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #20 on:** December 31, 2017, 02:43:11 PM »

Beercamel,

I hadn't been racing in 20 years so I wasn't aware that RARA allows Private Certifcate holders to fly. It was a minimum Commercial as far as I knew.

I can't know who you are, because Bob allows certain people have handles to hide their identity. But you know who I am. Lot's of people talk out of their ass, I just figured you do too. Rules excerpts don't mean much, anyone can post those. Where is your RACING experience.

Chris...

P.S. Pic of one of my Pitts racers, another is still active, I sold it to Roelofs' a while back.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #21 on:** December 31, 2017, 05:25:52 PM »

Here was me after my solo on my 16th birthday, Dec 14, 1974. My parents always had airplanes.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #22 on:** December 31, 2017, 05:27:34 PM »

Here are pics of my other Pitts racer. I sold this one to Roelofs.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #23 on:** December 31, 2017, 05:31:42 PM »

I checked out in '98, on the -9, then to the -80 and then the 76. Been on the -80 ever since 2001, fooked-over by my fellow professionals, and now further in the latest union of two great companies.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #24 on:** December 31, 2017, 05:34:22 PM »

Now just finishing the top wing repair/restoration on this one. Knight Twister was always a favorite since i could read about the races.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #25 on:** January 01, 2018, 02:09:57 PM »

Chris always knew you were a commercial pilot, but didn't know about your racing days. You are so lucky to have parents with airplanes. Now hen you guys are on the race course flying that low, does air currents and thermals bother you much? I know watching the in cockpit videos it looks like they don't bounce around that much. Happy new year.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #26 on:** January 01, 2018, 10:34:57 PM »

Hi Doc,
Happy New Year.
It depends on the traffic and weather. When it's rough and windy you get a little bouncing around but easily manageable in Biplane class because the airplanes are really acro planes with plenty of control surface, enough to recover from about anything. The pure racers like Jeff Lo's got upended a while back and it has little controls and he recovered quickly. If the wind gets much over 20 knots the F1 and Bipes don't fly, so the turbulence is usually noticeable but moderate. The wake from the other airplanes have more effect in the bigger airplanes like Sport Class. The guys in Unlimited say it's pretty wild sometimes and the Sea Furies put out the worst wake so one usually sees the smaller ships flying higher than them to avoid the wake. The Yak flying a higher line than Dreadnought comes to mind. I've seen it from the outside where guys have gone way past vertical bank because of a leading airplanes wake. One of the Jets crashed because of flying low behind a much heavier jet; an L-39 flying trail and low through a high G corner crashed behind a T-33.
One thing that is pretty cool is that on really calm days one can ride on a leading airplane's wake, you can feel the lift off the wake and lowering the nose because of it makes your airplane gain a little speed. In races where there is very little speed differential like Silver in Biplane Class where 8 airplanes can all be on the 1 mile straight it can make a big difference in making up ground or getting the 5 mph differential required to actually pass.
Chris...

PaulGibeault · « **Reply #27 on:** January 04, 2018, 01:29:49 AM »

Some people in Alberta Canada decided amongst themselves to build Thompson Trophy / Bendix /Schneider Cup racers. Powered by Fox 35's & 10 X 6 props. No pit requirement here! Even float equipped models takeoff well from grass we've found to our surprise!
It's a piece of cake if you want to fly by yourself...! My project for 2018 will be a Supermarine S6 (on floats) , just awaiting the plans...

Note: We have fun at all costs...

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #28 on:** January 04, 2018, 07:05:20 AM »

Gosh, those are pretty!! Wish we had a few more builders around here to make up a field. However, we do embrace your slogan. 'Fun at all costs!' TS

bill bischoff · « **Reply #29 on:** January 04, 2018, 10:27:03 AM »

How big/ what scale are they? Why not start a new thread to discuss them?

BB

Dave Edwards · « **Reply #30 on:** January 04, 2018, 05:53:12 PM »

Love the racing planes from the 30's. You must have cropped the GeeBees from the picture!

PaulGibeault · « **Reply #31 on:** January 05, 2018, 12:11:42 AM »

This copied from the " Central Alberta Dizzy Flyers " facebook web page.

Alright folks, introducing something a bit different for next summer. Fun scale racing!

The Dizzy Flyers are building fun scale golden age racers for some fun racing action next summer. The rules are simple, use a stock Fox .35, a 10X6 propeller, and the lines are 60'
X (unspecified Dia.) from center of handle to center of airplane. The airplane must be a profile, fun scale representation of a golden age (1920-1930's) racing airplane.

We have scaled our airplanes to a 6" chord so we can use a single 1/2'X6' piece of balsa for the wing and another for the fuselages. By using this method, the span comes out to around 28-32". The small photo / drawing is blown up using an overhead projector on plain paper until the wing chord comes out right. Up to three airplanes racing in the circle at a time, and it will be the first to finish a certain number of laps. We just haven't worked out how many laps yet😄 ( Note: to date no more than 2 models have gone up at once yet...)

** I'm still waiting for my Supermarine S6 plans...

PaulGibeault · « **Reply #32 on:** January 05, 2018, 02:12:49 PM »

Quote from: Dave Edwards on January 04, 2018, 05:53:12 PM

Love the racing planes from the 30's. You must have cropped the GeeBees from the picture!

Haven't seen a GeeBee just yet, but the season hasn't started...

john e. holliday · « **Reply #33 on:** January 06, 2018, 11:22:32 AM »

Back in the day when these designs were .15 size, the Flying Eagles had a series of races for them. The Folkerts was the most popular and the TeeDees were just coming on the market. It was 1962 as it was the year my Dad passed away and I had moved back to KC with Mother and niece. I built the GeeBee and competed with it. Would you believe I was sing a Medallion 15. But, what did I know back then.

Scientifiction . · « **Reply #34 on:** February 01, 2018, 08:40:36 PM »

Control Line SCALE RACING . Original American Articals had Thompson & Goodyear , hence the models here ( From Original Plans ? )

Cept the Machhi ?? Paul . do you know if its from a antique plan , or 21st century .

Scientifiction . · « **Reply #35 on:** February 01, 2018, 08:52:46 PM »

Theres a Aerofred plan , to go on with . ( looks a bit rough accuracarilly )but it is c/l for positioning . $:-\$

Theres subtleties between S6 S6B & reworked S6A's , like rad or hard edge to rear head fairing to fuse , float lengths & etc .
this'd be a bit better detail / outline , id guess .

Tripped over Eyetalian Orig for MC 72 so incuded it .

Scientifiction . · « **Reply #36 on:** February 01, 2018, 09:09:16 PM »

This was some of the Original ' Control Line Scale Racing ' mag. articals .

oops.

Most of the plans , & the ones in pauls Picture are on the free plans download sites ( outerzone/ hippocket / r c groups )

AND , pommy pit tecnique advice , was Pig Skin Glove from Builders Supplies . So Ive grabbed one . After surveying the lot .
Bound the two prop fingers with 3M blue tape , so the nasty diesels dont chew holes in them .

Its also confidance inspireing , even without the tape , on big glows with carbon or G F Props .

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #37 on:** February 02, 2018, 06:47:36 AM »

The original Thompson profiles...

john e. holliday · « **Reply #38 on:** February 02, 2018, 10:06:36 AM »

Yes that is the ones. I built the Gee Bee as I always liked it. The Folkerts was the popular one as it was the fastest especially with the new TeeDee 15 that became available.

PaulGibeault · « **Reply #39 on:** February 07, 2018, 06:58:55 PM »

Quote from: Matt Spencer on February 01, 2018, 08:40:36 PM

Control Line SCALE RACING . Original American Articals had Thompson & Goodyear , hence the models here ( From Original Plans ? )

Cept the Machhi ?? Paul . do you know if its from a antique plan , or 21st century .

Sorry Matt, I don't know. Cheers, Paul

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #40 on:** March 23, 2018, 02:59:29 PM »

Knight Twister is coming along, both wings are in final sanding then going home.
Chris...

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #41 on:** March 23, 2018, 03:05:28 PM »

bottom wing.
Chris...

PaulGibeault · « **Reply #42 on:** May 20, 2018, 10:45:15 AM »

I'm fairly sure the plan was copy & traced from an old one. Cheers, Paul

Quote from: Matt Spencer on February 01, 2018, 08:40:36 PM

Control Line SCALE RACING . Original American Articals had Thompson & Goodyear , hence the models here ( From Original Plans ? )

Cept the Machhi ?? Paul . do you know if its from a antique plan , or 21st century .

PaulGibeault · « **Reply #43 on:** May 20, 2018, 10:49:48 AM »

Very nice there Matt. I've had to shelf the new model for a bit as contest season is nearly on me. Will continue it sometime later... Cheers, Paul

Quote from: Matt Spencer on February 01, 2018, 08:52:46 PM

Theres a Aerofred plan , to go on with . ( looks a bit rough accuracarilly )but it is c/l for positioning . $:-\$

Theres subtleties between S6 S6B & reworked S6A's , like rad or hard edge to rear head fairing to fuse , float lengths & etc .
this'd be a bit better detail / outline , id guess .

Tripped over Eyetalian Orig for MC 72 so incuded it .

beercamel · « **Reply #44 on:** April 07, 2020, 01:01:38 AM »

Quote from: PaulGibeault on January 04, 2018, 01:29:49 AM

Some people in Alberta Canada decided amongst themselves to build Thompson Trophy / Bendix /Schneider Cup racers. Powered by Fox 35's & 10 X 6 props. No pit requirement here! Even float equipped models takeoff well from grass we've found to our surprise!
It's a piece of cake if you want to fly by yourself...! My project for 2018 will be a Supermarine S6 (on floats) , just awaiting the plans...
Note: We have fun at all costs...

That looks Great! And FUN!... Those models are very cool..