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Online Motorman

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« on: July 23, 2019, 08:59:00 AM »
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« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 11:56:55 AM by Motorman »
Matthew 7:6

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2019, 01:29:34 PM »
For Class II Mouse they are legal.  Class I requires reed valve engines. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Les Akre

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2019, 02:15:16 PM »
I've got an Mouse 1 airplane I bought many years ago with a Cyclon reed valve conversion that was done by Wayne Trivin. It was set up with a separate fuel tank with mechanical fast fill, and has a fuel shutoff as well. It was delivered to me at the Nat's one year, and I ran it in Mouse 1. Unfamiliarity with the model and engine caused a poor result that year, and I've not run it since due to not having the ambition to fix a few issues with the whole system. I could have got it sorted out, but since Jim Holland, who had Vic Garner's old Cyclon powered model moved back to England, I personally, I don't see any reason to run it, unless I was going for a record.

We have so few event entries left at most contests as it is, why kill it off completely...

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2019, 05:27:35 PM »
And then there was the year that a Mouse I entered Mouse II and won....

The Divot

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2019, 06:37:22 AM »
For Class II Mouse they are legal.  Class I requires reed valve engines. D>K

These guys are talking about putting a reed conversion on the back of a Russian combat engine beating the kids who still use Black Widows.
Paul Smith

Online bill bischoff

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2019, 09:39:55 AM »
The only converted engine used at this NATS was BY a junior! (Borrowed equipment) It was the only conversion, and the only junior, we've seen in a while.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2019, 06:49:13 PM »
The point being: a reed valve class was intended as a ENTRY POINT for people to use Black Widows.

Not an ELITE event, above the regular all-out performance events.

And you guys wonder why entries are low?
Paul Smith

Online bob whitney

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2019, 07:10:52 PM »
les that mouse was built by Me (Bob Whitney) because I could not get replacement parts for the Trivin engne.it won the nats for Dave Hallas and me the last 2 times we flew it .the Jr entry this year was also built by me
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Offline mike londke

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2019, 07:30:30 PM »
I've got an Mouse 1 airplane I bought many years ago with a Cyclon reed valve conversion that was done by Wayne Trivin. It was set up with a separate fuel tank with mechanical fast fill, and has a fuel shutoff as well. It was delivered to me at the Nat's one year, and I ran it in Mouse 1. Unfamiliarity with the model and engine caused a poor result that year, and I've not run it since due to not having the ambition to fix a few issues with the whole system. I could have got it sorted out, but since Jim Holland, who had Vic Garner's old Cyclon powered model moved back to England, I personally, I don't see any reason to run it, unless I was going for a record.

We have so few event entries left at most contests as it is, why kill it off completely...
Is it for sale? My boy flew Mouse this year with Bob's help and we want to do it again. Thx. PM me the details
AMA 48913  USPA D-19580  NRA Life Member  MI State Record Holder 50 way Freefall Formation Skydive  "Don't let the planet sneak up on you"

Offline Dick Tyndall

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2019, 11:02:53 PM »
   I also liked the 1/2 A Scale Racing with the reed valve Cox engines. For some reason it didn't really catch on here on the East coast. I did manage to finish second at the 1983  NATS to Vic Garner in the Mouse I class with my Falcon SPL with a modified Cox reed valve engine. Oh yea, spring starters were a MUST HAVE item!

                       Dick Tyndall

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2019, 07:54:26 AM »
1/2A reed valve Goodyear was big in the Wichita area in the mid-1970's.

I think the whole reed valve thing hinged on getting decent Cox parts "over-the-counter", which made it a people's event. 
I wore out all me reed valve stuff flying Musicano hollow log events.
I have not come to trust the current reissue of Cox products at high prices.
For the same money I will use LA 15 & 25 events as a low form of low end recreation.

The Ole Tiger served my well for a long time.  Later on a trainer was repurposed to 1/2A reed racing.
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2019, 09:21:03 AM »
There were 13 entries in Mouse I this year. Sportsman Goodyear had 11. Don't screw it up!

MELVIN SCHUETTE  1  JSA  5:14.16 
PATRICK HEMPEL  2  JSA  5:21.18 
MIKE GREB  3  JSA  6:09.93 
TIM STONE  4  JSA  6:57.74 
WILLIAM LEE  5  JSA  2:35.66 
CHARLES BARNES  6  JSA  2:52.57 
SAMUEL LONDKE  7  JSA  3:45.29 
CHARLES BARNES  8  JSA  3:48.90 
MARK WARNING  9  JSA  5:05.05 
GEORGE REYNOLDS  10  JSA  6:25.15 
DAVID BETZ  11  JSA  6:51.43 
ROBERT OGE  12  JSA  19 Laps 
ROBERT WHITNEY   JSA   
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Les Akre

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2019, 07:56:13 PM »
les that mouse was built by Me (Bob Whitney) because I could not get replacement parts for the Trivin engne.it won the nats for Dave Hallas and me the last 2 times we flew it .the Jr entry this year was also built by me

Thanks Bob, I thought I bought it from you.

Les

Offline Les Akre

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2019, 08:06:23 PM »
The point being: a reed valve class was intended as a ENTRY POINT for people to use Black Widows.

Not an ELITE event, above the regular all-out performance events.

And you guys wonder why entries are low?

Paul

It's obvious that some folks have very strong opinions of this event and what it should be, vs. what it actually is.

Although many racers USE or have USED the event as one in which they or their children could start racing, and do it on a budget, Mouse 1 has never been a "Starters" racing event, at least not according to the AMA rule book.
If someone has some literature (ie. previous AMA rule book) that proves otherwise, please post for all to see.

Highly modified Cox engines, and some of the home built variety, have been used in this event for decades now at the OPEN competition level without a great deal of ill effect. Some built their own engine because there is no rule that said you can't, and many modified the existing cox engines in search of reliability and performance that was missing in the stock engine.

Sound like a "Starter" event??

Les

Offline Les Akre

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2019, 08:10:07 PM »
Is it for sale? My boy flew Mouse this year with Bob's help and we want to do it again. Thx. PM me the details

Hi Mike

I'm not interested in selling the airplane at this time. I plan on fixing it, although fixing it has become one of those "Round-to-it" things.

Best of luck to you and your son.

Les

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2019, 10:57:54 PM »
I guess I'll have to differ somewhat with my "Canned Ham" racing teammate, the esteemed Mr. Akre.

Mouse I is a beginner's event. As Les has pointed out, it has several critical characteristics that make it suitable:

1. It is inherently safer to learn to race flying Mouse I than anything else. It is more tolerant of both pilot and pitman errors. In other words, it is a good training ground. I got into racing that way, and even then, I had to fly demos before they would let me be pilot in a race. So believe it or not, I started out as a Mouse I pitman.

2. It is about as low cost as you can get. Go look at any other kind of racing events, not just control line. The less expensive ones are where guys start. You don't wake up one morning and decide that you want to race F1.

3. Despite more pissing and moaning than I would believe possible, finding Cox parts, both used and new is pretty simple. The parts are interchangeable. You can fiddle with different stock and aftermarket heads. If you say that only brand new parts are worth your time, and oh, by the way, you have been flying control line for 40 years so you know of what you speak, well....you're not the audience that would benefit from a beginner event. Go try AMA Scale or 15 Rat.

4. So when you add up these characteristics, I'd say if it walks like a duck....  Sure, you can bring seasoned racers into the event, and I'm not against that. In fact, in my opinion, it is actually helpful for beginners to race against seasoned racers from a learning and safety standpoint. I think where the issue gets confused is that when some guys say it is a beginner's event, that only beginners should enter. Somehow, this comes from the idea of fairness and "equal right to win."  I'd look at a bit differently. You should have an equal right to practice and get good. An equal right to enter and be allowed to pilot or pit as you desire. An equal right to compete and learn. No one is guaranteeing you an equal right to win. That's on you. That's why it is called racing.

Things could be organized differently if we had half a dozen true beginners showing up to a race. Out here for the SCAR races, the best we ever managed was about three beginners at the same time. We flew them against each other when we could. We also taught them 2-up with an experienced pilot in the circle to try to accelerate the training. They had a good time. And since it is Mouse I, sometimes they won against a much more experienced team. And we talked about those races all season....

Divot McSlow

PS--If I had my 'druthers, I'd change the wording on the Mouse I rules to say something along the lines of using a production reed valve engine, and that reed conversions of other types are not permissible.  For the most part, this was how the situation existed by gentleman's agreement. Until someone shows up with a conversion. But there have only ever been a handful of these. And every time this rules situation comes up, at least one or two guys would get really upset. Maybe that has changed. And no, I don't feel the need to submit a rules change proposal. I'm simply not that concerned or affected by the situation. But new guys that are looking to buy new equipment might like to know about the prior debate before they jump in.

Online bill bischoff

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2019, 11:38:07 AM »
Blame me. In the late 80's/early 90's, I had just become the chairman of the then all encompassing CL contest board. One of the things I did was submit rules proposals to clean up some of the discrepancies in the rule book. I submitted the rule to remove the word "production" from the mouse I engine requirements. After all, "production" was not defined, and open to interpretation. Cox wasn't producing any reed valve engines with TeeDee cylinders or heads, or bushed cases, or drilled out venturis, yet no one seemed to object to any of these things. Removing "production" made the rules reflect the reality of the situation. Enough members of the  CLCB agreed that the proposal passed.


Bill  Bischoff

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2019, 02:02:39 PM »
Bill,

No blame here. Did you imagine that someone would machine the pieces necessary to take a Shuriken (or something like that back in the day) to make a world-beater for something that was essentially a Cox race? When screamin' 1/2A's became available for less than Shuriken prices (and after Fred Baldwin led the way) then the opportunity became real for the engine man. But very few bothered.

Actually, one of the fun things for kids is "building up" an engine out of a coffee can of old Cox parts and seeing if they can find a combination that will really go.* Since the Cox parts are nearly all mix-n-match and no one wants to do a technical inspection on that, as long as it was a reedy, it was all good. Until guys that had machinist skills and an equipped shop got into it. The answer is simple there, too. Put those in Mouse II.

The Divot


*--I have proposed a "for fun only" racing event called Coffee Can Cox Race where each team picks out a bucket of Cox parts. Used parts. Some may be worn out, or have gunk on them. A full jumble of parts to pick from. And no hidden parts that come out of someone's pockets. There are two penalties for that: the really good new parts go into the club coffee can for the next time; and, you have to assemble the engine twice before you are allowed to fly. This is a WD-40 and wrench event. BYOW. And bring a cleaning rag. The clock starts when they grab or look into the can. If your competitors are judged to be overly aggressive, then have each team draw a number, and that is the can that they get.  They have to assemble an engine, bolt it onto a plane and get it to run. The plane can be anything on 42' lines that passes safety inspection. Once the engine build is verified as legit, the official hands the team their prop, which the team must supply. The lines are all laid out on the circle and pull tested before they grab a bucket. No more than 6 entries in each heat. Pilots all have to run out to the center when the first pilot does. (They can help the mechanic until then....)  First team to finish 50 laps wins. Engine rebuilds are permitted and the 50 laps do not need to be consecutive. No team may whip more than 2 laps on any given engine run. I'd guess we could call this a real Le Mans start. And probably easier than running the Orange Crate event--which is also a lot of fun!

Offline Myron Firmin

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2021, 06:36:44 PM »
What is the line length for Mouse 1 racers?
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Online bill bischoff

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2021, 09:15:31 PM »
42 to 42 1/2 feet. Single strand .010 or multi stranded (braided) .012.

Online bob whitney

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Re: Mouse Race
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2021, 09:59:05 AM »
Blame me. In the late 80's/early 90's, I had just become the chairman of the then all encompassing CL contest board. One of the things I did was submit rules proposals to clean up some of the discrepancies in the rule book. I submitted the rule to remove the word "production" from the mouse I engine requirements. After all, "production" was not defined, and open to interpretation. Cox wasn't producing any reed valve engines with TeeDee cylinders or heads, or bushed cases, or drilled out venturis, yet no one seemed to object to any of these things. Removing "production" made the rules reflect the reality of the situation. Enough members of the  CLCB agreed that the proposal passed.   Thank u  H^^


Bill  Bischoff
rad racer


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