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Speed,Combat,Scale,Racing => Rat Racing and Team Racing => Topic started by: Paul Smith on June 28, 2017, 01:19:36 PM
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We're just kicking this around at this point. The other candidate for a Thursday morning event is NW40 Carrier.
Having looked at the rules I see two issues.
The engine requirement of an certain Magnum / ASP 15 which is said to be available ready-to-run for $80 looks good. Since we are opening the event in a new area I see no benefit in grandfathering old engines which might (and some say DO) outrun the chosen engine.
The airplane is just a Goodyear racer with outdoor controls - OK.
The fuel tank size and required pit stops doesn't make sense to me. Either measure fuel tanks or count pit stops, but not both.
If the engines are available at the AMA Nats in Muncie I am interesting in buying two to test the event.
The Toronto club has just opened a one-engine Goodyear class with the OS LA15. If some of them want to compete it would be easy enough to retrofit a plane with the ASP 15.
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How about the Brodak 15 just for grins. S?P
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I do not want to create a whole new event. I'm looking for something that already has something of a following.
Also, we already have Brodak Clown Racing so I don't want to just do that again.
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Prior to the ASP's inclusion, it was simply a one ounce tank with no required pits. Some could make it in two pits, some needed three. The ASP's could easily make it with two pits. To equalize things, we decided to mandate three pits for everybody. To keep things from getting out of hand with Fox 15's and big gas guzzling venturis going stupid fast, we elected to keep the one ounce maximum rule. If you will only be allowing ASP/Magnum engines with the specified venturi, then the one ounce rule is not necessary. Either way, we've never felt the need to measure anybody's tank.
Bill Bischoff, Dallas Model Aircraft Association
BTW Doc, our experience with the Brodak 15 is that it isn't a reliable starter, and isn't fast.
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I guess required pit stops and an unmeasured one ounce tank is OK.
It sort of raised my eyebrows that when a fast gas hog Fox came on the scene it was accommodated with a pit stop rule. In my way of thinking the one ounce tank would have forced the gas hog to make an extra pit stop, thus leveling the field as the fuel limit intended.
We need to build new events on equipment people can buy today, not a 35-year old relic that one or two people still use.
At $80 the standard engine is a viable alternative to LA 15's and 25's.
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Or...... For Brodak, include the OSLA and the Magnum?
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This engine will out run, hot restart, and will get better mileage than all other engines mentioned in this thread. Its a real sweetheart.
Al
https://www.planethobby.com/collections/cr-12f/products/copy-of-novarossi-rex-cr-12f-12-aircraft-engine-side-exhaust
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Or...... For Brodak, include the OSLA and the Magnum?
Perhaps, but.....
When BillB and Phil and Mike started thinking of the current Dallas SGY rules, they wanted to replace the unavailable Fox 15 with something modern. But they did not want to let the event get out of hand if unrestricted entry of any 15 was allowed. They settled on the ASP/Magnum 15 and then tested various venturi sizes to get performance very close to what a good Fox 15 would do. The specified engines are still available (see Bill Bischoff or Melvin Schuette) and are really nice true ABC engines that start easily and seem to run forever. What they settled on WORKS!
Yes, perhaps other engines should be allowed, but ONLY after 'vetting' them to determine what venturi restrictions should be applied. For the time being, since the specified ASP/Magnum engines are available, there isn't much 'push' to do the vetting of other brands.
It would be REALLY NICE to see Brodak run existing rules instead of always coming up with special versions that are only suitable there.
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This engine will out run, hot restart, and will get better mileage than all other engines mentioned in this thread. Its a real sweetheart.
Al
https://www.planethobby.com/collections/cr-12f/products/copy-of-novarossi-rex-cr-12f-12-aircraft-engine-side-exhaust
(All below: IMHO. :) )
Al, this is a good example of just what Sport GY (at least as far as Dallas rules are concerned) does NOT want!
Yes, that's a beautiful little engine.
Yes, it is 2 times as expensive as the specified ASP/Magnum.
Yes, it out-performs all of them.
If they were to be allowed, what would the venturi restriction have to be to keep them in line performance-wise with the rest? When that is answered, does the "out-performs all of them" apply any longer?
We've been playing with the ASP/Magnum engines for a few years here, and IMHO, they are also sweet little engines. They run well, they start well, they're relatively inexpensive.
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Perhaps you need to read the rules as well, Walt.
This discussion was predicated on removong the 'grandfathered' portion of the DMAA SGY rules. That leaves
ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS FOR MAGNUM/ ASP ENGINES ONLY: Beginning in 2014, the
Magnum XLS 15A and ASP S15A engines may be used as described below. T
Engines must be of stock configuration only. No material may be added or removed (except through
normal wear and use), except the engine mounting holes may be enlarged or elongated. No non-stock
parts may be substituted except for the glow plug, venturi, needle valve assembly, ball bearings,
gaskets, screws, prop washer and prop nut.
Somehow I don't see how this would allow 'depending on who preps it' to be a factor and hardly has it been 'turned it into a horsepower event'.
I do agree that stable rules are important, as evidenced by the long term success of TQR and, I guess from you: Jersey Sport GY. The major difference of course is that TQR is and has been flown all over, even across the ocean, Jersey SGY is a local event.
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(All below: IMHO. :) )
Al, this is a good example of just what Sport GY (at least as far as Dallas rules are concerned) does NOT want!
Bill, I'm just pointing out that the Nova Rossi .12 is a great quality engine that is still in production. It comes with a spray bar, and a 4mm venture ready to run for only $40 more than what ASP cost. We have guys that are new to racing that get fast pit stops with it because it is so easy to restart in are (most popular) Sportsman Clown event. As for power is not on par with a Fora or 18TZ, but will run stronger than a LA .15 and get great fuel mileage. Engines like this is keeping racing alive in are area. We don't have the pilots and pitmen to handle the hot stuff to make races anymore, that's why Perky and Fox Speed has become so popular here.
Al
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Bill, I'm just pointing out that the Nova Rossi .12 is a great quality engine that is still in production. It comes with a spray bar, and a 4mm venture ready to run for only $40 more than what ASP cost. We have guys that are new to racing that get fast pit stops with it because it is so easy to restart in are (most popular) Sportsman Clown event. As for power is not on par with a Fora or 18TZ, but will run stronger than a LA .15 and get great fuel mileage. Engines like this is keeping racing alive in are area. We don't have the pilots and pitmen to handle the hot stuff to make races anymore, that's why Perky and Fox Speed has become so popular here.
Al
I understand, Al, but from my perspective, the Nova Rossi .12 is an example of just what you mentioned: "the hot stuff". What the Dallas rules do is make an easily entered event, inexpensive to get started and with modern reliable engines, easy to start, easy to run, long-lived..
Whatever event rules you decide on, however, they MUST be structured to keep cost and performance in hand. If you don't, some looney out there will discover the little trick or the ringer engine that takes the event completely out of sight. That's what specifying the ASP/Magnum engines with the venturi restrictions is all about.
As an example....
Let's say that the NR12 is allowed after some evaluation and suitable venturi restrictions imposed. Now suddenly we find that with experience we see them running a bit faster and wiping everybody else out. Now everybody must run out and buy one to remain competitive. And all of the previous engines are resigned to the back shelf. The question that is begged is, how many of those folks will spring for the "latest and greatest" every time one shows up, how many will just blow it off.
It is just this sort of scenario that leads us to the creation of the 'local' events like you Jersey SGY and the Dallas SGY.
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Right now we have more classes of 15 racing than I can count.
Unfortunately, my friends in Toronto went ahead and created a NEW class of LA15 Goodyear. It differs very little from Brodak Clown racing for which I have six functional models. It does allow a fuel shutoff which I could have retrofitted to a Clown.
I don't really want to break ground a whole new 15 racing event. It seems to me that the inclusion of a NovoRossi would essentially bring the event right back to AMA Scale racing.
I have gotten more positive feedback from the Carrier side of the house. Something very close to NW 40 Carrier has shown
some interest.
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The whole point of C/L racing is reliability, some speed, and pitting. so, specify the tank dimensions, something less than one ounce. Then adjust the number of pit stops required, probably 4, with not shut offs allowed, or at least not used during the race. They do come in handy sometimes in a bad situation. Just count total laps before the horn.o fast fills, just an 1/8 pipe and tubing.
The contestants can juggle practice, nitro, pitting, venturis, etc. There will probably be more than one 'one' best combination.
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why do we treat shut off's like a bad habit?? Reliability, and pitting comes with a shut off. it allows the pilot to land the plane at his pitmans feet instead of pot luck as to where it is going to shut off
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The whole point of C/L racing is reliability, some speed, and pitting. so, specify the tank dimensions, something less than one ounce. Then adjust the number of pit stops required, probably 4, with not shut offs allowed, or at least not used during the race. They do come in handy sometimes in a bad situation. Just count total laps before the horn.o fast fills, just an 1/8 pipe and tubing.
The contestants can juggle practice, nitro, pitting, venturis, etc. There will probably be more than one 'one' best combination.
To Phil,
What you have described is the current set of rules for Brodak Foxberg & Clown. My intent is something a bit more competitive using shutoffs and coming into the pit fast on the circle. Three years ago, at Brad LaPointe's suggestion, I was able to get LA-25 Racing, under the Toronto Rules accepted. At that point in time there were about ten active plane-owners in the area and the event had a ten-year history of success.
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I say go for it. Dallas rules are well thought out. Race planes built to their specs are fast enough to be interesting, not so fast so as be a menace in the hands of casual racers and re-start easily enough that you won't wear out your pit man. They are being raced alongside SCAR (Southern Cal Air Racing) spec planes at Whittier Narrows. SCAR rules allow a greater variety of engines, some planes are faster than Dallas S-Goodyears, some not as fast but they run well together.
At the last SoCal contest a racer (Nemesis, flown by a top stunt flier (not me)) with an FP-15 was entered. Maybe not the fastest plane in the field but very competitive. Point is, go with the Dallas rules but for the Brodak allow the Toronto based LA-15 or FP-15 racers to compete against the Magnum/ASP racers. It should work. :! Idea: To even things up a bit allow large venturi openings for the OS racers and keep the Magnum/ASP venturis to the size specified by Dallas rules. For the record, I have a Dallas spec Goodyear that should be finished in a week or two and do attend the SCAR races, competing in the SSR class. 8)
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Venturi limits - suction tanks - fuel tank size - required pit stops.
I 've heard all of this.
I think the suction rule effectively limits venturi size. Anybody can drill out a venturi. So I see no need of BOTH a venturi size & a suction rule in the same event.
A tank size limit sets up an interesting compromise situation. In theory, high-powered engines burn a lot of fuel & need more pit stops. As in F2C, the tank size effectively limits fuel consumption and speed. The mistake in F2C is the absence of a standard fuel. Without a standard fuel, guys who want to win use dangerous trick fuel.
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What kind of speed are the guys in Texas getting with their Dallas Goodyears? We have a club member in NJ that followed Bill Bischoff's plans for the model. He bought Bill's Venturi and spray bar setup that he is using in the Magnum 15. It's pretty anemic, for 8 laps on 52 ft lines it's just under 27 seconds on 10 nitro which is a good 3 seconds slower than our LA 15 clowns.
Al
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What kind of speed are the guys in Texas getting with their Dallas Goodyears? We have a club member in NJ that followed Bill Bischoff's plans for the model. He bought Bill's Venturi and spray bar setup that he is using in the Magnum 15. It's pretty anemic, for 8 laps on 52 ft lines it's just under 27 seconds on 10 nitro which is a good 3 seconds slower than our LA 15 clowns.
Al
Yes, Al, that's awful! Something wrong since ALL of the SGYs like you describe run 23's or better. Prop? Lead-out position? Balance?
We were at the field yesterday. Pat Hempel's SGY (Magnum, as I recall) was running 23.4 for 8. We took the head shim out and it was running comfortably at 22.4 That is a very competitive speed.
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Thx Bill, I was on the handle while the guys did some prop thrashing with no real positive results. The plane seamed to fly and glide ok. I did not have to add any extra handle control while it was in the air from the ground setting. I will have to mic the engine & gaskets next time he brings it out because I know he is running it the way it came out of the box. If it's not to much to ask, what is the go to prop that you guys are using?
Al
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Hello, Al;
"Out of the box" is the way we ALL are running them. Minus the head shims. Prop is the APC 6.5x5. We've all played with other variations but the stock 6.5x5 works as well or better than anything else.
Bill
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I got one into the 24's on a plane that's not all that competitive.
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We've found that the model is very important for a competitive Sport GY. With all of the engines being pretty much equal, you get your advantage by building a slick model and learning how to pit quickly. "Pretty models" seem to go faster, probably because making them "pretty" is also making them slick and streamlined. Get all of the crap in the drag shadow of the engine, make a good wing with a good airfoil, get the leadouts position at the wing tip in the right place.
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How many 15 racing events can you name?>
The over/under is 10.
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When did the Fox 15 Schneurle plain bearing come on the market. The Sky Devils had the first restricted good year race with one ounce tank and the Fox .15 Schneurle plain bearing as engine. Then for some reason we could not get the plain bearing locally as fox started putting bearings in the engines. I won the first race at Swope Park using the SIG Shoestring. Any way it grew from there. Bill Wright and Jim Dunkin wrote the rules for that event. Actually any plain bearing loop scavaged engine was allowed so they could run their diesel that Jim made. At one time we could count on at least a dozen entries until the rule was made that racing events use supplied fuel as one individual learned you could add an ingredient to 10% nitro fuel and give you considerable range. I do like what the Dallas group are doing to promote Goodyear racing. I just need to finish my planes.
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new vendor for Magnum. mikegoesflying.com $55. Read reply #3 again. HB~>
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If the APS can make it in 2 pits and you mandate 3 then it's not an economy event, it's all the speed you can get horse power event. Venturi, bearings, gaskets leaves something for a tuner to do.
I've been meaning to get one of those engines to play with, who has the best price?
MM
R%%%%
Walt, I am sure your results in your backyard will be beyond belief! Too bad nobody else will ever see them. R%%%%
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LL~
hey Bill, I never seen you at one of our contest either, chicken?
LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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I got one into the 24's on a plane that's not all that competitive.
Here is a picture of my new Model 1/8 scale Naughty Girl fly's good, lands good.
New motor on it now and its seams better than the old one that has lots of time on it.
Restarts good.
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Nice...
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Am I correct remembering that Bill was up our way once a number of years ago? TS
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Am I correct remembering that Bill was up our way once a number of years ago? TS
Yes.
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Sounds like a Eastcoast vs Texas challenge! S?P
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Guys have forgotten when the NATS was held in the eastern portion of this great land. H^^
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Doc, I think Bill came to our field at Middlesex when we were racing. Not the Nats. Can't remember when or why.
Ahhh. East v West Challenge. Quite a dream! Kinda like the 'old days'. There is The Brodak though. TS
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Doc, I think Bill came to our field at Middlesex when we were racing. Not the Nats. Can't remember when or why.
Ahhh. East v West Challenge. Quite a dream! Kinda like the 'old days'. There is The Brodak though. TS
Tom, Brodak would be fine ... until they start with all of the funny rules that aren't flown anywhere else.
And Brodak is so far away! The miles are so much longer east to west than west to east! n~
LL~