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Author Topic: Brodak Super Fly  (Read 4036 times)

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Brodak Super Fly
« on: March 20, 2008, 08:36:04 AM »
For a change of pace I decided to build a Brodak Super Fly for NCLRA Fox Racing.  Have the kit - looks good like all the Brodak Kits I have checked out or built.  Question:  What if any mods do you all real racers recommend for this kit?  Not looking to get too serious here (I have stunt for that), just want a decent plane to compete with at contests where the event is offered.  So far the only changes I might make are switching to a 3" bell crank and replacing the nylon flat hinges with barrel type.  Tank recommendations?  FWIW: Back in the day I used to compete in a similar limited event with a Goldberg "Skat Rat".  Lotsa fun  ;D
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Scott Jenkins

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 01:42:29 PM »
Peter,
The super fly is a good kit for Fox Race instead of using a 3" bellcrank I would use a 2" bellcrank due to the fact you are only going to fly straight and level with a minimum amount of elevator throw needed. I would get rid of the light plywood that comes in the kit use 3/32" good plywood and also make the plywood doublers so they are all the way back to the high point of the wing. Same with the motor mounts make them as long as possible. The fuselage can be made stronger by remove the top and bottom 3/8" of an inch of balsa and replacing it with basswood or spruce for the full length of the fuselage. Definitely fiberglass the center section of the wing and the stab and vertical stab with either 2 layers of 3/4 oz. cloth and use laminating resin instead of the 5 minute junk. You must remember stunt planes usually just roll to a stop. Racing planes make pit stops you are the brake, in the heat of a race they come in fast and hot. I have seen more tail sections broken off on a hot landing than I can count. Also plan to put a shut off between the tank and the motor it is better to get DQ'ed in a heat than to lose an airplane. That way if your pilot gets in trouble he can shut it down and get out of the way.

My 2 cents worth,

Scott

 
Scott Jenkins
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FAI F2C VOLUME 2 SECTION 4, 4.3.7
m) During the refuelling and the restart of the motor, and until the time when he releases the model aircraft, the mechanic must keep the model aircraft in contact with the ground by at least one point and with the centre line outside the flight circle. During that time the pilot must be crouching or sitting inside the centre circle. He keeps one hand on the ground and his handle and his lines as close to the ground as defined by the F2C panel of judges until the model aircraft starts again.

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 07:00:07 PM »
Thanks Scott - that's the type of constructive input I was hoping for.  Good point about the shut-off , I was going not going to install one but now...I'm on it!  #^
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 10:04:17 AM »
I beleive all racing planes should be equipped with shut-offs with the exception for 1/2A's.  Come race time the shut-off can be by passed.  I have two of the Brodak kits and built them box stock with no troubles.  Only complaint is the landing gear is a tad short.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Scott Jenkins

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 10:32:28 AM »
Doc,

"I beleive all racing planes should be equipped with shut-offs with the exception for 1/2A's. 
Come race time the shut-off can be by passed."

I agree with you but I think they should be mandatory even in a race. Equipment is getting
too expensive even for the beginners and why take a chance. If you boil it down to basics
it is really a safety item.

For those that read this and do not know how to make a shutoff just ask you can literally do
it with a dremel tool and a soldering iron, a scrap of brass plate, plus a piece of music wire.

On edit: Look at the picture you know that guy he's racing again !!

Scott
Scott Jenkins
AMA 43122
FAI F2C VOLUME 2 SECTION 4, 4.3.7
m) During the refuelling and the restart of the motor, and until the time when he releases the model aircraft, the mechanic must keep the model aircraft in contact with the ground by at least one point and with the centre line outside the flight circle. During that time the pilot must be crouching or sitting inside the centre circle. He keeps one hand on the ground and his handle and his lines as close to the ground as defined by the F2C panel of judges until the model aircraft starts again.

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2008, 09:31:12 AM »
I was just going to order a Brodak shut-off.  Is there a link where pics or diagrams of an appropriate shut-off can be accessed?  Have dremel and iron - can cut, bend, and burn!  Also... I will seriously consider bending a new (longer) LG.  I hate trimming props on take-off.  Thanks Doc.
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2008, 11:46:13 AM »
Of course I am partial, but, I get my shut-offs from MBS Model Supply when he has them.  His supplier is a slow at times.  Later,  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2008, 02:14:47 PM »
Thanks for the tip Doc, I will be placing an order. y1
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Thomas Wilk

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2008, 05:42:05 PM »
These might help

TA Wilk

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2008, 07:22:51 PM »
Thank you for those.  That makes the magic much clearer and contain all the details necessary to construct one- like most good C/L designs, simple yet ingenious.  That being said, I will opt for a purchased one (see above) at least to get started.  And at $15.00 a good deal considering the time that it would take to build one and get it working.  BTW Thomas, any relation to Steve Wilk of carbon fiber prop fame?
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Thomas Wilk

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2008, 08:59:28 PM »
Pete:

Yup - Steve is my son. 

Tom  H^^

Offline PaulGibeault

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2008, 11:50:07 PM »
Hello Pete:

Sadly, nobody advertizes that the Brodak Super Fly (as kitted) makes for a pretty lousy racer when equipped with a Fox. (ANY other engine is fine)
The stock Superfly even when well built, has a serious vibration problem. I'm SURE it was never intended to be that way, but it is... What you notice is that it's hard to hang on to & hard to set the needle (because it's shaking a lot) & also the nose will start cracking away from the center section right away. Again, none of this was intended. What to do??  During constuction there is some beefing up that should be done per other posts.  ONE reason for the excessive vibration is the long nose moment. IF there is any way to mount the engine as close as possible to the wing L.E. that would be of major benefit. Of course that might mean a custom short tank & maybe means having to mount the shut-off on the tank. If tail heavy then possibly the stab size might need to be decreased...( this part I'm guessing at). I will offer that mounting the engine directly onto wood & NOT aluminum mount plates will help, in this case.
The whole point is to get the engine vibration down to a managable level... somehow.
I have found with a Fox that even mounting a given prop 180 degrees sometimes results in MORE SPEED /less vibration for no apparent reason, so I mark my props at the hub to try this.
I have not completed tests as to weather a vibration reducing material under the motor mount lugs will work. I HAVE seen this done on a russian Doreschenko combat model. He used 1" lenghts of silicon fuel tubing that was split with a razorblade. Easy to try though...
I have not tried out of balance props, or a counterweighted spinner /prop hub.
My solution was to use a short nose "mongoose" airplane & be done with it. But that's no use if you have a perfectly good Super Fly kit, is it?

Regardless, your set up will work even if you do nothing. The Super Fly is rock steady.  I guess I'm just trying to advise you in advance of what to expect. Getting the Fox vibration situation down to a reasonable level just makes your model go faster & tank run much steadier which makes it re-start faster, too. 

I find a 1.5 oz uniflow vented tank works well, just like in stunt. I use foam tape between the tank & the fuse. I think Todd Ryan is very recently offering tanks for clown & Fox sport race. I think one of his tanks is well worth it, if you don't care to make your own.  (He holds all the NWSR records)

 

Go out there & race Pete, Fox racing is GREAT FUN (just like you remember, only the pull & noise is less) I'm sure there's lots of help available.

Best of Luck,   

Paul


Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2008, 08:35:35 AM »
Thanks for the info Paul, I will definitely keep it in mind and build accordingly.  Another strategy I have in mind is auditioning my selection of Fox 35's for the one that vibrates the least.  One way or another, I should be able to get vibration down to a manageable level.  8)  Tom: I bought one of Steve's props at VSC - lookin forward to trying it.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 09:24:45 AM by Pete Cunha »
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2008, 08:56:12 AM »
I have two Super Fly's that I have been using with Fox 35 Stunt for power.  My own tank as I am getting way too many laps.  Have not noticed any vibration problems, of course these Fox's were broken in with racing in mind.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2008, 02:51:28 PM »
Dave Braun, the designer of the SuperFly, has been flying one in SSR/Fox events here in SoCal. Not sure how close it is in construction to the Brodak kit. I don't have any photos with me, but I seem to recall that his plane has an inboard tripler to stiffen up the front end. I will try to remember to ask him. He is using a Fox .35, and has very good airspeed. If he bobbles a pit stop we can get him--if he doesn't...we get another serving of humble pie.

Dave "McSlow" Hull
So Cal Air Racers

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2008, 11:16:45 PM »
Another good tip - THANKS.  Nice to hear that racing is alive and well in So Cal.  Way back in the Mesazoic era I was in the Valley Circle Burners when they were big on racing and speed - Mike Atzei, Wild Bill etc.  Of course I was a junior and completely in awe of their building and flying. 
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2008, 02:39:00 PM »
Pete,
I am a VCB member, and our new president, Bill Barber has been seen piloting a Mouse racer on occassion. We are hopefully building bridges with the dominant stunt membership within the club. We are short on racers and are always recruiting. Nice to know former members are still out there flying!

A couple more comments (opinions):

Having raced before, you probably know this stuff, but here are a few more ideas on shutoffs. When you set up your shutoff, it is very important that the system have as little compliance as possible. This allows the pilot to trip it with the least amount of extra "down" input. That makes for much smoother shutdowns and fewer traffic problems. Test this by observing the elevator as you pull on the down leadout until the shutoff trips. You might be surprised by how far it has to go. Compliance is where you find it. For example, if you put the elevator horn on the inboard side and shutoff horn on the outboard, then the windup in the joiner means more elevator deflection will be required. Sloppy holes? More elevator required. High shutoff pull force? More elevator. Long and flexible trip wire? Lots more elevator. Don't use string or anything stretchy on the pull wire. Start with the outermost position on the elevator horn for the pull wire. Use a wire guide if you have to route the pull wire around the tank or anything else in the way. Do not deviate from the best orientation of the trip wire relative to the notch in the pinch shaft (J-shaped). Attempting to keep tuning the shutoff by bending the trip wire is a sure way to lose races. Ask me how I know! Be sure the notch in this shaft is crisp, not ramped or the shutoff won't be reliable. It will require high preloads and be vibration sensitive. Inspect used shutoffs for wear here, too. Having a shutoff betray you during a good race is almost as bad as being stuck in the pit watching the mechanic struggle at the sound of the horn.

It seems like the place the pilot needs the most down is when leveling off after a ballooning takeoff. You should have enough down to recover without tripping the shutoff. Any more than that increases the problems at shutdown. I guess that every airplane/pilot is different, but I would start by setting the shutoff at about 15 degrees down and adjusting it from there. If you fly with a wide-spaced handle, you can get away with more if your pilot has a quick wrist.

Les Akre and I discussed shutoffs at length after last year's Cabin Fever and he provided some very good insight into the proper setup. You can learn a lot sitting in a Denny's if you hang out with the right company!

Dave "McSlow" Hull
So Cal Air Racers


Offline Bill Barber

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2008, 08:43:01 PM »
   As the new president Of the Valley Circle Burner I have to agree with Dave that the club has been stunt dominated . But I would like to encourage all forms of control line , it's the only way to keep our circles in the Sepulveda Basin . We either have the RC car & truck guys wanting our circles or the heliocopter crowd . Yes I fly mostly stunt but have had a lot of fun with mouse one racing !
    Bill Barber
Valley Circle Burners

« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 09:24:31 PM by Bill Barber »
AMA 325076

Offline Pat Chewning

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2020, 03:01:01 PM »
I just built a Superfly with K&B .40 for NW Super-Sport racing.  The instructions for the Superfly call for a balancing point 3" behind the leading edge of the wing.  Mine balances right on the leading edge.  How important is this balance point?   Should I add some tail weight?

Offline Les Akre

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2020, 02:24:54 AM »
Hello

Are you sure the instructions call for 3"...with the Superfly's roughly 7.75" wing chord that's a 40% balance point. Way to much for a racer.

I'm trying to remember, but I think about 1" back from leading edge was where mine ended up. I would fly it where it currently balances, and then decide. Being a race airplane, I favor stability (read forward balance point) over a more rearward balance. Also, the airplane handles easier on takeoffs and landings with the forward balance point.

Les


Offline Pat Chewning

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2020, 11:25:12 PM »
The Super Fly is flying now (without any tail weight).  Working out a few engine/fuel details to optimize pitting and speed.   I like it!


Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2020, 06:27:28 AM »
If you add weight to the tail it should be in the form of strength. Spruce or maple inlay, strips of CF laminate down the fuselage sides, fiberglass coating ect. If you just add lead to the tail get ready for vertical cracks just behind the wing and just in front of the stab and if you catch it wrong in the pits the whole tail can snap off.

Reduce the weight and get the weight as far back on the nose as you can. You can only get the lead outs so far forward, if it's too nose heavy it will crab out and even fly nose up. Both of those things will slow you down.

Everything on the plane is either a weight or a spring. Make your weights smaller and your springs bigger.


Motorman 8)

Agreed.  When I build planes like that I integrate a strip of 1/8 x 1/2 spruce from the engine mounts to the tailplane mount when I build the body.  This adds a bit tail weight and eliminates stress concentration.
Paul Smith

Offline Tim Stone

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Re: Brodak Super Fly
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2020, 07:05:35 AM »
Here is my take on Super fly. It has been converted from the old .36 rules to the new .25 rules.


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