News:


Advertise Here

  • May 24, 2022, 06:08:56 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: B Team Racer  (Read 1401 times)

Offline Paul Smith

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5399
B Team Racer
« on: January 03, 2022, 10:38:29 AM »
I was given an old B Team Racer by a friend who was quitting racing.

He stated that the model had been flown in the AMA Nats but didn't finish due to a malfunction.  I traced the problem to a broken fuel shutoff.

The model is powered by a Webra 28. Somebody questioned the legality of the engine.  But it seems OK as per the NCLRA rules on line today.

AMA dropped the event in 1964.  I would be interested to see the pre-1964 rules if anybody still has a rule book.

It's not my goal in lift to win The Nats with a cheater B TR.  If it happens to work, I might venture in as a fun entry.

If for some reason the Webra 28 doesn't make it, I have a variety of different OS 25's on hand.
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 939
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2022, 05:44:14 PM »
Paul,

The Dayton Buzzin' Buzzards brought Vintage B Team Race back to last year's NATS. There is one important change to the rules from what is posted on the NCLRA web site. The Webra .28 is out. We specify the engine to be a baffle piston .29. The complaint with the .28 engines is that they were too fast for some people's taste. The current engine spec means basically a period correct single transfer cross flow engine such as a Veco 29, Torp 29, Dooling 29, McCoy 29, O.S. Max .29, ETA .29, etc. For sure, NO flat top piston Super Tigres.

I would point out the rules are set and there will be no changes.

It is scheduled to be flown at The Brodak this year as well as the NATS and probably a couple of other venues.

I'll dig out the complete rule set and send you an email.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline BillLee

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1179
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2022, 05:50:15 PM »
Not to mention that the Dayton rules are plainly available on the NCLRA website, as well as the NCLRA B-TR rules.
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline Paul Smith

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5399
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2022, 06:21:14 PM »
Paul,

The Dayton Buzzin' Buzzards brought Vintage B Team Race back to last year's NATS. There is one important change to the rules from what is posted on the NCLRA web site. The Webra .28 is out. We specify the engine to be a baffle piston .29. The complaint with the .28 engines is that they were too fast for some people's taste. The current engine spec means basically a period correct single transfer cross flow engine such as a Veco 29, Torp 29, Dooling 29, McCoy 29, O.S. Max .29, ETA .29, etc. For sure, NO flat top piston Super Tigres.

I would point out the rules are set and there will be no changes.

It is scheduled to be flown at The Brodak this year as well as the NATS and probably a couple of other venues.

I'll dig out the complete rule set and send you an email.

No need to "dig out" the rules.  They are on the NCLRA web site.  Until amended, the Webra 28 is legal for all three venues.

So, per your rules, one would have to dig up a pre-1964 engine that runs and pits well.  Sort of a high hurdle to say the least.
Paul Smith

Offline bill bischoff

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1537
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2022, 06:42:28 PM »
 "Until amended, the Webra 28 is legal for all three venues."

Paul, is this what you meant to say? I hope not, because it is incorrect. All B-Team Racing scheduled for 2022 (That I am aware of) is the Dayton VINTAGE B Team Racing event. As Bob just stated, baffle piston 29's are required. I don't know where you pulled 1964 from, but Enya 29's and various flavors of Fox 29's from post-1964 are just as legal. Your model was/is a legal model in NCLRA B Team Race, which is not being flown anywhere currently.

Offline Paul Smith

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5399
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2022, 06:53:31 PM »
1964 was the last year that AMA carried the event.  So a true old time event would use those rules.

OK, so if everybody is using the Dayton rules, then the model is unusable and the issue is closed.

If "everybody" is using the Dayton rules, why have an obsolete set still in the NCLRA web site? 


Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 939
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2022, 08:09:30 PM »
AMA Team Race was retired because Rat Race became very popular. It was a simple matter of people voting with their feet. Had we just started using those rules again we could have ended up with modern .29s going really fast. That was a non-starter.

Your model is not completely unusable if you care to fit a different engine. It looks like a nice plane so why not give it a try? Our aim is to have a racer that runs about 100 - 105 mph. We have no expectations that a whole bunch of people will try this so there should be plenty of decent engines to supply the field.

As far as having both sets of "Vintage" rules, I guess it just seemed to be an easier way to get to our goal.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline C.T. Schaefer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 630
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2022, 05:44:23 AM »
Paul,  My own experience with this has found that the Enya .29 can be a good starting point.  My efforts last year focused on the Fox .29 engines.  I  went to ebay and found a few to work with at reasonable prices. Not sure about Bob's goal of 100-105 but there is a good selection of 29 motors out there that will give good handling, good speed and good economy with some homework.  Plane looks good.   The plane I flew this year started life in 1980 with a  Mk lV Fox. Good combo. For the 2003 Nats it was refitted with a Nova Rossi .20. Good combo.  This years Nats she sported a 1958 Fox .29X. Good combo although the motor mounts are looking a bit swiss cheesy!  It is a real fun event. The planes look cool in the air!   Go for it.   TS

Offline Paul Smith

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5399
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2022, 06:33:32 AM »
I was active when Rat replaced B Team Race.  There were two main reasons:

1. The AMA B Team Race rules were too complicated for people, even top experts, to comply with.
2. There was an abundance of 40's on the market, but few .29's.

The 29 shortage has only gotten worse.  With 36's in combat and 40's in rat and carrier, there was no incentive to build a racing 29. 

A team of the Top Gun winners from our area tried to make a B Team Racer and it failed.  Having seen the guys who dominated stunt & carrier fail, it turned everybody else to Rat.  We had 24 entries in the first Rat race and there were never two guys with working B Team Racers to put up a heat.

The current rules clearly favor the few people who have the technology (and the will) to make new parts for 1960 engines. 
A lot of guys could get into B TR with the abundance of new 25's if the actual pre-1964 rules were used.

Bottom line:  Thanks for the advice before I spent any more time on a losing battle.
Paul Smith

Offline bob whitney

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2132
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2022, 12:00:37 PM »
the original Rat rules had a 40 top limits but there was none on the market .35's were used for a couple of years before the first K&B,fox and S/T 40s came out .
  i had one of the first 40s when i put a green head 45 P/L on a green head 35 by boring out the case .it ran great until it blow the cylinder off on the 6th flight and i never found it and never followed up on it.
 there is a small group flying BTR at the moment (and i mean small), they have accepted the use of baffled 29's .by opening BTR back up to flat top 25's,28.s aor 29,s we will loose what we have now to gain one or 2 more entrys  ,i dont think it is worth it RAD
rad racer

Offline Paul Smith

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5399
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2022, 04:20:10 PM »
So can you do mods and use hybrid engines now? imho another unofficial even where the rules can change as soon as you finish building your plane.


Motorman 8)

Correctomundo, Johnny (as said by Ed McMahon).

Fortunately, I found out the "new deal" before I was too deep into it. 
The plane and engine I was given was a "Dallas rules" which was the in thing up until now.
The latest thing is "Dayton rules" which are more restrictive.
The former owner stated the plane was recently flown in The Nats.
Per the Category Director, Dallas is out and Dayton is in. 
It's a long time until summer (in the north).  Maybe a baffled piston single bypass 29 will fall into my plane by magic.


Paul Smith

Offline BillLee

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1179
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2022, 04:51:21 PM »
...... "Dallas rules" .....
What on earth are you talking about,Paul?  There is no such thing as "Dallas rules" for B-TR nor has there ever been.

You are, as is so typical, completely off base. Try reading the rules sometime.
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline john e. holliday

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22163
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2022, 10:05:04 PM »
Some where I have the rules the late Ken Smith was using at the VSC one year.   I remember the Dallas guys had their planes there and I think a couple of others were there also.  I started my Veco Red Skin which was going to be Fox .29 stunt powered.  Needless to say it hangs in the shop unfinished.  But Ken wanted a speed limit of 90 mph which I guess did not go over.  Too bad it got too windy that year. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Dave Hull

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1475
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2022, 04:20:50 AM »
I have the two notebooks that were used by Dave Braun during the time frame that B-TR was revived in California by Ken Smith and the local guys. It includes the handwritten equipment rules, eligible planes, etc.

When there was a brief revival more recently (2005ish), it was thought that modern available engines would be needed if there was to be much interest. The old engines were grandfathered by allowing a .29 as long as it was single bypass, baffle-top--but then the displacement for a modern engine was set at .28.  So you could run the old stuff but the guys running new stuff would have to lose in the pits for you to win. As it was, a modern .25 pumped out enough horsepower to make it a pretty spectacular event for pilots flying 3-up. Unless an exceptional amount of effort was taken to keep the plane light, it was still a "strong arm" event.

I suppose I have more "arrested B-TR construction projects" than anyone else has admitted. I have the very cool "Heinz 57" Dawson original, which is actually complete. It is a biplane hollow log and I think we flew it maybe a half dozen times. It got away from us on one launch and torque rolled into a balsa confetti storm. Fortunately, Dawson was able to piece it all back together. It was a handful when powered by an OS .25FX.

I have a Firecracker that has most of the woodwork done, and maybe all of the systems figured out. It is set up for the Webra .28. Considering the tight cowling on this, switching to something else would probably require a new fuselage.

Most recently, I was working to finish a Veco team racer. Before too many other projects got in the way. It was just going to be a sport flyer. It is set up for an old OS .25FSR, with all of the systems figured out, but final assembly not begun.

I think I have a couple of other kits too. Thankfully, they are still in the box and I don't have to admit that they are partially built, too....

Probably won't race any of them, but they are fun to run, beautiful to look at (at least if it's not one that I painted myself) and more interesting than yet another profile racing class.

For guys that think the rules are too complicated, it would seem that they should be looking somewhere else. Personally, I think that is what makes the event interesting:

--Beauty gets you pit choice, which can help a lot if windy or if the pilot skill levels are not uniformly high.

--The use of limited fuel supply practically defines this event, with no required pits.

--Unrestricted fuel composition lets you develop your system for the sprints vs. the feature race.

There are more racing strategies in B-TR than others. I think that makes it much more interesting. That said, you can simplify things by using standard fuel, fixed venturi size, run of the mill finish and not worry about pit location, etc. But complicated? No. Just that they are not profile planes, and yes, you have to have a shutoff that works. And even a pilot head. Oh, the horrors...!

The Divot McSlow


Ref. NCLRA B-TR Rules

5.  "Any single bypass up to .29 cu. in., or any engine up to .28 cu. in."

Offline BillLee

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1179
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2022, 05:51:21 AM »
I have the two notebooks that were used by Dave Braun during the time frame that B-TR was revived in California by Ken Smith and the local guys. It includes the handwritten equipment rules, eligible planes, etc.

When there was a brief revival more recently (2005ish), it was thought that modern available engines would be needed if there was to be much interest. The old engines were grandfathered by allowing a .29 as long as it was single bypass, baffle-top--but then the displacement for a modern engine was set at .28.  So you could run the old stuff but the guys running new stuff would have to lose in the pits for you to win. As it was, a modern .25 pumped out enough horsepower to make it a pretty spectacular event for pilots flying 3-up. Unless an exceptional amount of effort was taken to keep the plane light, it was still a "strong arm" event.

I suppose I have more "arrested B-TR construction projects" than anyone else has admitted. I have the very cool "Heinz 57" Dawson original, which is actually complete. It is a biplane hollow log and I think we flew it maybe a half dozen times. It got away from us on one launch and torque rolled into a balsa confetti storm. Fortunately, Dawson was able to piece it all back together. It was a handful when powered by an OS .25FX.

I have a Firecracker that has most of the woodwork done, and maybe all of the systems figured out. It is set up for the Webra .28. Considering the tight cowling on this, switching to something else would probably require a new fuselage.

Most recently, I was working to finish a Veco team racer. Before too many other projects got in the way. It was just going to be a sport flyer. It is set up for an old OS .25FSR, with all of the systems figured out, but final assembly not begun.

I think I have a couple of other kits too. Thankfully, they are still in the box and I don't have to admit that they are partially built, too....

Probably won't race any of them, but they are fun to run, beautiful to look at (at least if it's not one that I painted myself) and more interesting than yet another profile racing class.

For guys that think the rules are too complicated, it would seem that they should be looking somewhere else. Personally, I think that is what makes the event interesting:

--Beauty gets you pit choice, which can help a lot if windy or if the pilot skill levels are not uniformly high.

--The use of limited fuel supply practically defines this event, with no required pits.

--Unrestricted fuel composition lets you develop your system for the sprints vs. the feature race.

There are more racing strategies in B-TR than others. I think that makes it much more interesting. That said, you can simplify things by using standard fuel, fixed venturi size, run of the mill finish and not worry about pit location, etc. But complicated? No. Just that they are not profile planes, and yes, you have to have a shutoff that works. And even a pilot head. Oh, the horrors...!

The Divot McSlow


Ref. NCLRA B-TR Rules

5.  "Any single bypass up to .29 cu. in., or any engine up to .28 cu. in."

Very nice commentary, Dave. Just need to add:

Ref. Dayton B-TR Rules
5. Any single bypass, baffle piston, glow fuel engine up to 0.29 cu. in. will be
allowed.

A bit more history: Kenn's attempt at reviving B-TR was based as I recall on only using designs from "the era", ala Old Time or Classic Stunt. I think he found out that most folks that race are interested in racing and a lot less in nostalgia. That, coupled with the silly speed limit rule, pretty much killed his effort.

NCLRA stepped in and formed a committee to review the rules, and the NCLRA B-TR rules that are available today are the result.

NCLRA B-TR was flown at the NATs for a few years, usually 2-3-4 entries, and then died away. Now, the guys in Dayton have tried again with their version, essentially the same as the NCLRA rule-set with the added engine constraints. It was flown at teh NATs in 2021 and will be again in 2022.
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline C.T. Schaefer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 630
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2022, 06:17:23 AM »
Paul,  I think that most who actually fly the event agree that there is no more 'high tech' involved to fly B than there is for Dallas Goodyear. You need a decent tank and a shutoff.  I already pointed out some good suggestions for a motor.  Perhaps the hardest thing is to find someone to help you develop the techniques for a good race on the circle. Dave pointed out some of the stuff that the original rules such as beauty and sprint races, which is cool stuff. But in reality, in today's world,  it comes down to a straight 70 heat and 140 final.
   I am writing this for the other folks who may read this to encourage them not to be wary or hesitant because of 'high tech' set ups.  Here is one 'secret' tip. Because of the use of .018 lines you will need to at least double the amount of tip weight on vintage designs.   TS

Offline Paul Smith

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5399
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2022, 07:01:55 AM »
What on earth are you talking about,Paul?  There is no such thing as "Dallas rules" for B-TR nor has there ever been.

You are, as is so typical, completely off base. Try reading the rules sometime.

http://nclra.org/Rules/B-TR/index.php

This is what I meant:  NCLRA B Team Race, as written 03/01/2006, and still posted today.
I DO read the rules.
If you click the link, you will find two sets of rules.  The model I was given complies with the posted rules above and was flown in The AMA Nats.

Thank you for advising me about which set of rules are being used at your event.
If one set of rules is obsolete, maybe it should be taken down.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5399
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2022, 07:07:39 AM »
Paul,  I think that most who actually fly the event agree that there is no more 'high tech' involved to fly B than there is for Dallas Goodyear. You need a decent tank and a shutoff.  I already pointed out some good suggestions for a motor.  Perhaps the hardest thing is to find someone to help you develop the techniques for a good race on the circle. Dave pointed out some of the stuff that the original rules such as beauty and sprint races, which is cool stuff. But in reality, in today's world,  it comes down to a straight 70 heat and 140 final.
   I am writing this for the other folks who may read this to encourage them not to be wary or hesitant because of 'high tech' set ups.  Here is one 'secret' tip. Because of the use of .018 lines you will need to at least double the amount of tip weight on vintage designs.   TS

I agree that ALL events have gone "high tech" since 1960. 
But in 1962 you could make a Rat with only ONE rule; 40 maximum.  And you could easily buy a Fox of ST  40.
Or you could try to make an AMA Team Racer and deal with BIG list of rules, plus try to find a 29 that worked.
In the Detroit, Ontario, Ohio area a lot of people made rats and NOBODY made an AMA Team Racer.

Paul Smith

Offline BillLee

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1179
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2022, 03:04:00 PM »
http://nclra.org/Rules/B-TR/index.php

This is what I meant:  NCLRA B Team Race, as written 03/01/2006, and still posted today.
I DO read the rules.
If you click the link, you will find two sets of rules.  The model I was given complies with the posted rules above and was flown in The AMA Nats.

Thank you for advising me about which set of rules are being used at your event.

Not sure what "your event" means, but the NATs B-TR will be sponsored and run by the Dayton guys and will use their rules. I think that's been pretty thoroughly clarified before and is the source of your original concern when it was brought to your attention that the Webra 28 is not legal for their event.

Quote from: Paul Smith
If one set of rules is obsolete, maybe it should be taken down.

Nothing obsolete, still an effective set of rules, just not flown. Just like many other events.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 06:39:01 AM by BillLee »
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline bill bischoff

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1537
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2022, 08:26:06 PM »
I still don't see any B-TR rules written by, or even attributed to, the Dallas club.  ???

Offline Dave Hull

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1475
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2022, 12:48:29 AM »
I think we're stuck in a rut here, guys. Paul has reiterated his opinion, formed prior to this thread--perhaps years before--that 1962 Rat as an event was heads and shoulders above B-TR in his experience and based on local participation. Ok. That is anecdotal info and valid for what it is. No one is saying it's not.

--Paul said essentially that his local experts tried it and sucked at it, immediately changing to .40 Rat
--He has stated that .40 Rat was a "one rule" event and implies it is therefore superior
--His nostalgic memory implies that Rat had no problems


Taking all this as gospel for a minute, then:

--Why don't we have a "no rules" .40 Rat event today?
--Would anyone build a plane?
--How in the world would they hold onto it?
--Would they try to fly it 3-up like a previously discussed but now unnamed event?

No. No one is going to show up for an unlimited .40 Rat event. But let's say you wanted to give it a try. So you enforce upper weight limits. Maybe limit engine construction: no ABC or AAC; no ball bearings; no rear rotor; no swingweight carbs; no...... What else? Maybe venturi size. Maybe require fat lines. Maybe a lot of things in order to slow it down and make it like "back in the day." But wait, isn't that the difference that is being pointed out between the two sets of B-TR rules? Exactly.

So my conclusion here is that we have to remember the entire situation from back in the day. And if you want to duplicate that event today, the rules will be pretty specific in order to limit more modern engines and equipment. Some might even brand them "complicated" because they prohibit what one entrant might otherwise want to do. The various flavors of B-TR rules have tried to restrict performance without killing the event. We have not really found a single, durable set of rules because some guys want it closer to exact vintage, and other guys would like to design a new plane and experiment with engines. If you want to see some strict vintage rules, read Gordon Rae's book on team racing for the English nostalgia event.

Both rule sets are valid, and whichever one people will show up for should be run. But possible entrants are widely scattered and there's not many of them. The biggest B-TR event I recall was at Cabin Fever in 2007. (See picture.) To the NCLRA rules. And some of the pilots had trouble at those speeds, weights, and 3-up. I haven't heard all the Dayton rationale, but I'd bet half the impetus was to get back to manageable racing for aging pilots (and pitmen), and the other half was pure nostalgia about old Doolings and McCoys. Or maybe they would say it's 80/20?

Finally, there seems to be the notion that only one rules set can be valid at any one point in time. Nope. Not true. The country is wide and tall and guys are not crisscrossing all over on the contest circuit. So having, for example, Sport Goodyear rules that the SoCal guys have evolved and like doesn't have any real impact on what New Jersey or Texas guys want to do with their Sportsman Goodyear rules. Mixed SSR/Fox? Ok, we do that. Foxberg? Big Goodyear or Formula Unlimited. Probably similar situation. Not sure what other areas might do. These are local rules. Didn't event directors come up with special, local rules for Brodak racing? Seems like I read they did. Seems like Paul was more than casually involved in that? And it seems like the nostalgia engine restriction in B-TR started locally (Dayton) and may expand if there are guys that want to try it. In years gone by, it would not have immediately jumped to the Nats, perhaps, but today that may be the only place to draw enough like-minded racers together to make an event of it.

The Divot

edit: added picture
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 01:05:58 AM by Dave Hull »

Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 939
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2022, 07:20:18 AM »
Re: How did the Dayton Buzzin' Buzzards arrive at the Vintage B Team Race rules package we promote?

We asked a couple of questions as to why the class, as run under NCLRA rules, faded away. The answer came back that some thought that the planes had become too fast for their comfort level. The other response was that it had become a one engine class with questionable availability.

After some thought we settled on the baffle piston .29 as a way to manage technology creep and keep the performance interesting enough to have a good race. Plus, there seems to be enough of these engines in the secondary marketplace for anyone who wants to buy one. I would like to believe that having a number of choices adds to the interest. Brand vs. brand is kind of baked into our racing psyche.

I think the purely nostalgic part is a plus but we didn't really include that as a decision point, except to keep the displacement consistent with the original class limit.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Paul Smith

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5399
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2022, 01:15:17 PM »
That's all well & good.  Anybody can come with a new event if they feel it's good idea.
I just wish NCLRA would take down the obsolete rules if they're dead.
I assumed that they would use their own rules for The Nats, as they did in the past.
Thankfully, somebody pointed out the issue before I wasted any more time.

I feel that finding a healthy 50-year-old 29 that can still hot start is easier said than done, unless you are one of a few people who can make their own parts.
Paul Smith

Offline Dave Hull

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1475
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2022, 08:25:39 PM »
Thanks, Bob. The background helps.

I guess I'd take issue with the "one engine event" if applied to the NCLRA rules. There were a lot of competitive .25s that I saw. I wouldn't doubt it if one of the finalists in the biggest B-TR race I've seen wasn't running a GMS .25.  I believe I did rent-a-pilot duties in one race where we used a .21 and we did all right. The pitman kept us right in it with some good work when it counted.

My request to the NCLRA guys is to leave the event rules up just the way they are. If the SoCal guys decide to run some practice and perhaps a bit of racing, we'll likely use what is posted.

Dave


Offline Les Akre

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 205
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2022, 03:42:02 AM »
Everyone

The NCLRA B Tr rules are now 17 years old.

Many guys already had airplanes built and had competed in B Tr at the 2003 and 2004 Nat's. At the time, we were competing with a "loose" rule set as I recall, put forth by Bob Whitney that was essentially the rule set that Ken Smith had resurrected with some additional engine choices allowed. After the 2004 Nat's a Committee was formed to create an NCLRA rule set for B Team Race. As the rules Chairman/Chairperson or whatever they're called this week, it was not an easy task, but we did come up with a set that seemed to work fairly well, for a few years at least. The biggest single hurdle was trying to forge a set of rules that didn't render someones airplane illegal or obsolete yet still retain the original rules intent and classic form as close as possible.

After a few years of competition, it became very obvious that the airspeeds of the better models, combined with their weight were becoming a problem for many of the Pilots to handle. My entry weighed around 25oz. but others were closer to 28-30 and some beyond. The Webra .28's and my GMS .25 were pushing 115mph+. Doesn't really sound like much when you write it out, but most of these Pilots were completely wore out afterwards. Remember, this was 3-up at these speeds with heavy models!

If I had to do it over again, (knowing what I know now) I would have pushed harder to limit the powerplants to stock plain bearing Schneurle Port .25's like we run in SSR and Single bypass .29's. I would've also pushed for .018" braided lines only, with exposed vs. enclosed leadouts being the only topic of discussion.

I had threatened to build another B tr at some point, and if I actually do, it will be with one of the engine choices mentioned in the above paragraph.

Les
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 04:00:50 AM by Les Akre »

Offline Dave Hull

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1475
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2022, 09:45:27 PM »
If we let Les build one, we're going to have to send the Canned Ham racing team to safety school. Both members have participated in blowing up perfectly good B-TRs in the not-distant-enough past....

Most of the teams--at least the pilots--who have campaigned NCLRA B-TR have thought about the horsepower rules. I think Les' suggestion about plain bearing .25's is a pretty good one. You can go look at the last rules that I heard about that the Aussies were running. I think this is pretty much what they have been doing for years.

If the stars were to align and nitro poured out of the sky for free, my Veco B-TR project would get finished and I could probably swap the OS .25FSR for an OS .25FP and we could try it out. Not sure if the bolt patterns and prop spacing is the same, but it might be....

The Divot
"Canned Ham Racing Team"

Offline C.T. Schaefer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 630
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2022, 05:15:43 AM »
After reading Pauls comments the other day I went on ebay and found a number of Enya .29's. Even one NIB with all the venturi's and 2 heads. Also quite a few Fox .29's. The 70's shiny case ones pop up frequently and would make a  very useable powerplant.  I think all this chatter is good!  TS

Offline Paul Smith

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5399
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2022, 08:17:00 PM »
I noticed several old 29's on Ebay.  The question is: how many would you need to buy to hot a good one?

I my current plan is to send a Fox 35 Stunt over to eastern Europe and have it debored to 29 with an AAC baffled piston.  I am awaiting bids from Ukraine, Slovakia, and Moldavia.  I have six donor engines to convert.  I could cover my cost by selling some of the excess units.

In the short run this will be more effective that fishing on the bay.
Paul Smith

Online Dave Rigotti

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • "Electric...The future of anytime stunt"
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2022, 07:08:16 AM »
Would the NEW FOX 29 being sold on RCG Free Flight and CL classified ads be OK to use?  If so I'd like to buy it and maybe try this event.
Dave Rigotti
AMA 66859
Chesterland, Ohio

Offline C.T. Schaefer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 630
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2022, 11:59:20 AM »
what model is it?

Online Dave Rigotti

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • "Electric...The future of anytime stunt"
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2022, 12:53:55 PM »
This is all I know....
Dave Rigotti
AMA 66859
Chesterland, Ohio

Offline Charles Barnes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2022, 09:41:37 PM »
Does anyone have any plans for B Team Racer available?

Offline bob whitney

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2132
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2022, 10:38:10 PM »
Charles   email me RAD
rad racer

Offline C.T. Schaefer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 630
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2022, 05:32:36 AM »
Dave, That is a legal motor.  Early 70's fox .29.  Follow standard  Fox procedure with fuel.  I started with 10/25 and had to go to 5/25 for better mileage.

Online Dave Rigotti

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • "Electric...The future of anytime stunt"
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2022, 06:10:34 AM »
Thanks CT!

Dave, That is a legal motor.  Early 70's fox .29.  Follow standard  Fox procedure with fuel.  I started with 10/25 and had to go to 5/25 for better mileage.
Dave Rigotti
AMA 66859
Chesterland, Ohio

Offline Air Ministry .

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 4419
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2022, 06:42:43 PM »
A portion of the Aussie Rules .
----------------------------------

4.18.1   MODEL SPECIFICATIONS:
(a)   Engine shall be as listed below. It shall be completely cowled with only glow plug, needle valve stem, cut-off lever, (if fitted) fill-vent tubes, or exhaust permitted to protrude through the cowling.An air intake & small access hole for choking is permissible.Allowable engines: Any engine (max. .30 cid) manufactured for commercial sales prior to January 1, 1961. Any “modern” (max. .30 cid) plain bearing engine. Any of the following modern ball race engines are allowed:
OS FX .25
GMS .25
Enya SS.25 BB (diesel or glow)
Thunder Tiger PRO 25 BB
Rothwell R320BR
Irvine .25
ASP .25
Glowplug engines in the above list of modern ball race engines must use a 1/4 “ x 32TPI standard thread glow plug. No Nelson plugs, Turbo plugs or button heads are permitted in the modern ball race glowplug engines listed above. No tuned pipes are allowed. No metal engine mounting pans are permitted.
Propellers must be wood or commercially available glass composite (eg APC). All carbon fibre or glass fibre construction not permitted.
---    ---    ---

4.18.7   SUPPLEMENT TO 2000 “B” T/R RULES
Due to the fact that old racing engines are not readily available, are expensive and those who have or can get them don’t always want to use them in competition, a modern engine group has been included with the old engines as allowable power.

========================

Personally , I think the old original engines , while not dime a dozen , arnt hard to find . A lot of the entrant however like modifying any engine beyond recognition , internally .
such as Rossi 15 inside OS 15 case  , etc & so on .

This gives them get up & go . But WHY Super Tigre 21-29s ARNT ELIGABLE is a mystery . They were the hot set up in New Zealand in the early 70s , before schneurle became commonplace .

About 120 mph was as good as it got, with the Super Tigre . Beyond that speed anything but a dedicated T/R nutter will start falling over . ENTRANTS being sparse if they aint a hope . Just a few thoughts ! .

Offline qaz049

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 229
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2022, 05:22:23 AM »
A portion of the Aussie Rules .
----------------------------------

4.18.1   MODEL SPECIFICATIONS:
(a)   Engine shall be as listed below. It shall be completely cowled with only glow plug, needle valve stem, cut-off lever, (if fitted) fill-vent tubes, or exhaust permitted to protrude through the cowling.An air intake & small access hole for choking is permissible.Allowable engines: Any engine (max. .30 cid) manufactured for commercial sales prior to January 1, 1961. Any “modern” (max. .30 cid) plain bearing engine. Any of the following modern ball race engines are allowed:
OS FX .25
GMS .25
Enya SS.25 BB (diesel or glow)
Thunder Tiger PRO 25 BB
Rothwell R320BR
Irvine .25
ASP .25
Glowplug engines in the above list of modern ball race engines must use a 1/4 “ x 32TPI standard thread glow plug. No Nelson plugs, Turbo plugs or button heads are permitted in the modern ball race glowplug engines listed above. No tuned pipes are allowed. No metal engine mounting pans are permitted.
Propellers must be wood or commercially available glass composite (eg APC). All carbon fibre or glass fibre construction not permitted.
---    ---    ---

4.18.7   SUPPLEMENT TO 2000 “B” T/R RULES
Due to the fact that old racing engines are not readily available, are expensive and those who have or can get them don’t always want to use them in competition, a modern engine group has been included with the old engines as allowable power.

========================

Personally , I think the old original engines , while not dime a dozen , arnt hard to find . A lot of the entrant however like modifying any engine beyond recognition , internally .
such as Rossi 15 inside OS 15 case  , etc & so on .

This gives them get up & go . But WHY Super Tigre 21-29s ARNT ELIGABLE is a mystery . They were the hot set up in New Zealand in the early 70s , before schneurle became commonplace .

About 120 mph was as good as it got, with the Super Tigre . Beyond that speed anything but a dedicated T/R nutter will start falling over . ENTRANTS being sparse if they aint a hope . Just a few thoughts ! .

Matt,

you're confusing a number of Australian B Class team racer events. The MAAA rules still allow three separate and distinct events.

(1) Class II TR. This allows any design racer that conforms with the rules. Engines can be any .29 or less. Super Tigre RISE engines were commonly used together with exotic racing engines such as OPS etc. Rossi .21 and other similar Buggy engines were allowed.

(2) Vintage B. Designs up to January 1958 were allowed. Engines were limited to Baffled plain bearing .29's, ETA .29's etc and PB ENYA .29's. Some Vintage diesels were legal.

(3) Classic B. Models could be any that conformed to the 1966 MAAA Class B rules. Engines could be modified PB .25's, Baffled PB .29's or modified TBR .25 glows (no Nelson pluga), OS, TT, Irvine etc.

Most of the other rules were the same.

The Classic B airspeeds were approaching 120 mph with the TBR .25's.

The OS .15's, Norvel .15's etc with Rossi p/l were used in another event, nothing to do with Class B.


Offline Paul Smith

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5399
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2022, 09:01:30 AM »
Thanks for posting your Australian rules.

As I recall the 1964 AMA Nats was the end of the old B Team Race.  The final winner topped out at 130 MPH airspeed.

The Supertiger G21 series went on sale in the early 1960's, so would just barely qualify as an historic engine.

In our area I never saw two B TR's in the air at once, but we had 24 entries in our first 40-Rat race.  The best speeds were about the same and all you needed to measure on a Rat was the engine and the lines.

My whole interest in the event stemmed from receiving a fixer-upper that I hope to fly.  But I learned that it was a casualty of the rules changing process.

The obvious gap in the current rules is the ability of a few people to get a hold of an old plain bearing baffled piston single bypass engine install a modern AAC pistone y cylindre.
Paul Smith

Offline bill bischoff

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1537
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2022, 09:52:17 AM »
Paul, it's not that you're a victim of a rule change, you're a victim of not reading!. There are two different events. If you want to fly the event at Brodak or the NATS, change engines and get on with it. If you get more enjoyment from complaining than flying, so be it.

Offline BillLee

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1179
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2022, 03:57:58 PM »
Paul, it's not that you're a victim of a rule change, you're a victim of not reading!. There are two different events. If you want to fly the event at Brodak or the NATS, change engines and get on with it. If you get more enjoyment from complaining than flying, so be it.

Well and properly said, Bill!
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline Dave Hull

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1475
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2022, 05:28:37 PM »
Here's one of my "work in progress" B-TRs.  Haven't done anything to it lately, but having a little conversation going here might put some extra "round 'tuits" in play...?

This one started as a Dick Ealy Firecracker. It is a semi-scaler, with a plans date of 1951. I changed a few of the construction methods to things that have worked better for me. I believe I also shortened the fuselage a bit, but I'd have to go verify that. I was pleased with how it was turning out--that's not why the project fell to the wayside. It was just that I had too many other projects--not all modeling--that took priority. But, now may be the time to finish some of these up. Starting with the Veco job.

The picture might be a bit confusing the way the parts are laid out. The long block with internal pocketing is the removable top (even though positioned in the photo like it belongs on the bottom), and the stacked layers of balsa on the top in the picture are actually the bottom of the cowling, which will be permanently attached. I made the cowl out of stacked layers because that opened up a bunch of options in terms of cooling air passages and clearances. Much more like an F2C plane than a vintage B-TR. Since it hasn't flown yet, there is no proof yet on whether that is a good approach. But, it is easy to make very accurately and perhaps a plus if you have trouble getting your hands on a nice-sized block. For the dedicated whittlers out there, you probably will get more fun per dollar using the block....


The Divot

Offline C.T. Schaefer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 630
Re: B Team Racer
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2022, 05:26:33 AM »
This has been an active thread which makes me reiterate that there are always a few worthy .29's on ebay.  Right now there is a new Fox and a new Enya. Either one of these can power a fun and competitive TR.  The thought that people would have custom P/L sets made is a bit silly.  There just is no market to support such a course.  As I pointed out in a previous post,  the plane Al and I flew at the Nats  last year has had 4 different engines in it over it's 40 year+ lifespan.   TS
    PS   Dave, Cool looking plane!


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here