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Author Topic: B Team Racer Plans  (Read 3208 times)

Offline pat king

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B Team Racer Plans
« on: July 26, 2022, 08:51:55 PM »
I would like to do a laser cut kit or two for a B Team Racer/s. I would like plans for vintage B Team Racers. If you have paper plans I will have them scanned and mail the original back to you.

Thanks,  Pat
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Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2022, 12:00:18 AM »
Do you have a time period or nationality in mind?

There's a variety of all sorts of Team Racer plans at https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1530258-Control-Line-Team-Racer-plans-and-pictures/page6

Many B designs too.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2022, 11:30:06 PM »
Pat,

To help you with your choices, you might look at the smorgasbord of vintage B-TR contained in "Aircraft Speed and Vintage Team Racing," by Gordon Rae. There's usually one or two for sale on the web. It has a bunch of small scale outline drawings and three(?) somewhat larger repros of some British planes.

There were a lot of published plans in various magazines. Not sure if the AMA collections have those or not. I have binder with quite a few of these magazine-sized articles. I could probably post a list of which ones, along with the magazine name and date, if that helps you?

I think there would be more interest in the vintage era--before fiberglass shells. However, the earliest B-TRs have, shall we say, a lot of unique character, and perhaps would not be considered attractive. Good looks was one of the cornerstones of the event....

Dave

Offline pat king

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2022, 09:19:51 AM »
Dave,
I have a few B Team racer plans captured from the web. I have a book ordered about golden age air racers. I have some designs coming. I am open to anyu designs that someone can point me to, or any plans that someone would loan me. I am not interested in doing a full fuselage Slow Rat. I want to do one or two Vintage B Team Racer kit designs.
There is a pledge to sponsor Vintage B Team Race at the NATS next year. I want to be able to offer laser cut kits for anyone who does not have an airplane that qualifies but would like to try it. The Vintage B Team Race rules call for a single bypass .29 engine, that rules out tricked out .25 and .28 engines. The intention is to have fun with some nostalgia.

Thanks,  Pat
Pat King
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Offline Jim Carter

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2022, 10:20:42 AM »
Dave,
I have a few B Team racer plans captured from the web. I have a book ordered about golden age air racers. I have some designs coming. I am open to anyu designs that someone can point me to, or any plans that someone would loan me. I am not interested in doing a full fuselage Slow Rat. I want to do one or two Vintage B Team Racer kit designs.
There is a pledge to sponsor Vintage B Team Race at the NATS next year. I want to be able to offer laser cut kits for anyone who does not have an airplane that qualifies but would like to try it. The Vintage B Team Race rules call for a single bypass .29 engine, that rules out tricked out .25 and .28 engines. The intention is to have fun with some nostalgia.

Thanks,  Pat
Hi Pat!  I applaud you for your desire and efforts but ... where would any "newbie" acquire a single bypass .29 engine?  Yes. I s'pose one could search E-Bay but in this day and age, at what cost and what guarantee or follow-on support for parts and repairs?  I really like the pictures and stories (when available) about these racers but I believe most of what I've read comes from the UK.  Nevertheless, I applaud your efforts and support.

Jim

Offline Trostle

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2022, 01:58:56 PM »
I would like to do a laser cut kit or two for a B Team Racer/s. I would like plans for vintage B Team Racers. If you have paper plans I will have them scanned and mail the original back to you.

Thanks,  Pat

I have binders that show more than 50 Class B Team Racers that were published during the 1950's in the American and British magazines.  This includes the construction articles with the plans published in the magazines.  Most of these are represented in the more than 240 excellent outline drawings of B Team Racers in the Gordon J. Rae book previously mentioned.  Also in these binders as well as the Rae book are numerous "how to" articles along with articles on tuning/setting up engines for these racers.

So, which design or what is it that you are really looking for?

Keith

Offline Motorman

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2022, 07:14:16 PM »
I guess the quintessential B team racer would be the "Rambler", I think by John Lowry?


Motorman 8)

Offline qaz049

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2022, 07:45:35 PM »
Hi Pat!  I applaud you for your desire and efforts but ... where would any "newbie" acquire a single bypass .29 engine?  Yes. I s'pose one could search E-Bay but in this day and age, at what cost and what guarantee or follow-on support for parts and repairs?  I really like the pictures and stories (when available) about these racers but I believe most of what I've read comes from the UK.  Nevertheless, I applaud your efforts and support.

Jim

Not really a problem. There are a constant stream of good Enya PB .29's on Ebay at reasonable prices. Most are new or very near new. Parts are available from Bobbie Brooks on Ebay or Ken Enya direct. I have bought about a dozen good Enya .29's from ebay over the years. Many NIB for less than US30. RC versions easily convert to CL.

Offline qaz049

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2022, 07:48:32 PM »
I guess the quintessential B team racer would be the "Rambler", I think by John Lowry?


Motorman 8)

The UK designs such as the Dalesman or the Double Dice would be far better than the Rambler which is far too fragile.

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2022, 12:08:01 AM »
From the thread that I linked before:

Dalesman, Aeromodeller 1960
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Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2022, 12:11:59 AM »
Galaxie (Australian. Redraw of a 1963 original)
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2022, 12:22:56 AM »
Is this the Rambler that was mentioned?
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2022, 12:32:49 AM »
The '55 Rambler was by George Moir. Not sure if we are all talking about the same plane--names get reused.

Looking at the '55 Rambler plans, I don't see why it is "far too fragile."  Balsa plank wing covered in nylon. Nowadays we'd likely just glass it and the tail, along with the fuselage. The front bulkheads are 1/8' plywood, 1/16" ply nose doublers....

I suspect that in the USA, we see the outlines and dimensions but change the internals to suit. I understand that this is not allowed in vintage B-TR in other countries, or, what am I missing?

Dave

Update--Pert and I crossed posts in the ether. That is the plane I'm looking at, although the plans would seem to have been redrawn and cleaned up. The plans I have are from Model Airplane News and drawn by Paul Del Gatto.

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2022, 12:52:41 AM »
Rocket (Australia, more recent design in the Vintage/Classic style)
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2022, 04:28:28 AM »
Double Dice (1955) was mentioned. I'm not sure if the scan is sized perfectly.

I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2022, 04:39:30 AM »
Dalesman Mk.3 (1960) and Dalesman Mk.5 (1963) "modern" redraws.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2022, 05:48:32 AM »
Here is one of the later published designs.  Long Gone from Aug. 62 MAN  Lots of detail and a winner.  The Rambler by George Moir.  The article covers a lot of detail to make the Fox .29 into a good racing engine. Our pal Larry  Scarinzi has two of Georges' planes.
  My experience would suggest the Enya as a good motor. My preference has been the Fox.  A couple of years ago I stalked ebay and came up with a couple of nice ones to work with.  Currently I have my 1982 TR and a new one ready and looking for some racing.  These things are a lot of fun and look great in the air. Mine are not fully developed but can do mid 80's and about 40 laps.    TS

Offline qaz049

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2022, 06:49:34 AM »
The '55 Rambler was by George Moir. Not sure if we are all talking about the same plane--names get reused.

Looking at the '55 Rambler plans, I don't see why it is "far too fragile."  Balsa plank wing covered in nylon. Nowadays we'd likely just glass it and the tail, along with the fuselage. The front bulkheads are 1/8' plywood, 1/16" ply nose doublers....

I suspect that in the USA, we see the outlines and dimensions but change the internals to suit. I understand that this is not allowed in vintage B-TR in other countries, or, what am I missing?

Dave

Update--Pert and I crossed posts in the ether. That is the plane I'm looking at, although the plans would seem to have been redrawn and cleaned up. The plans I have are from Model Airplane News and drawn by Paul Del Gatto.

Structural modification certainly is allowed in the Anglosphere B Class revival.  Basically around the strengthening the airframe, tank location, and the fitting of an alloy engine plate mostly.  Pictures to follow tomorrow.

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2022, 08:11:29 AM »
Unless otherwise stated, I suspect the rules will be https://www.nclra.org/Rules/B-TR/index.php

It says: " Any B team race airplane from the 1940's, '50's, and '60's may be used. Individual designs that are similar in appearance may also be used. "
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2022, 08:17:57 AM »
Here is one of the later published designs.  Long Gone from Aug. 62 MAN  ...
Long Gone VI.
A built up wing might seem a little fragile for racing?
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Trostle

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2022, 10:39:27 AM »
Double Dice (1955) was mentioned. I'm not sure if the scan is sized perfectly.

It is not.  Can you somehow reset it so that a full copy can be made. 

Also, your pdf files for the Long Gone and the Galaxie do not show anything except for blank pages.

Thank you.

Keith
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 11:00:51 AM by Trostle »

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2022, 11:38:45 AM »
It is not.  Can you somehow reset it so that a full copy can be made. 

Also, your pdf files for the Long Gone and the Galaxie do not show anything except for blank pages.

Thank you.

Keith
Some PDF files don't seem to open right in a browser. They should work in Adobe Reader.

I'll take a look at the Double Dice plan.

edit: Measuring the wing span in the Double dice plan, in Inkscape vector graphics program, I get very close to 29".
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2022, 12:43:18 PM »
Not really a problem. There are a constant stream of good Enya PB .29's on Ebay at reasonable prices. Most are new or very near new. Parts are available from Bobbie Brooks on Ebay or Ken Enya direct. I have bought about a dozen good Enya .29's from ebay over the years. Many NIB for less than US30. RC versions easily convert to CL.
Thanks for the reply and guidance.  I took a look and I did see that they were somewhat reasonable.  Thanks to you, I'll be saving the information regarding parts contacts.  Thank you!!

Jim

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2022, 01:10:06 PM »
A few more....
Two redrawn versions of Keith Storey's Quest, originally from MAN 1951.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2022, 01:13:41 PM »
The Bartlett Bullet from Air-Trails-May1953.
Tantivvy from Aeromodeller 1953
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2022, 05:10:39 PM »
dose anyone have plans for John Barrs FAI or B/TR`s
rad racer

Offline qaz049

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2022, 08:17:10 PM »
dose anyone have plans for John Barrs FAI or B/TR`s

Do you have his model designs names? John Barr doesn't ring a bell but I might have them under their name.

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2022, 01:10:14 AM »
Do you have his model designs names? John Barr doesn't ring a bell but I might have them under their name.
The only reference to John Barr's designs that I can find quikly is in an article at http://controlline.org.uk/microair/f2c_early/BarrTheo.htm

"John Barr and Dick Norsikian were two of the principals that popularized FAI TR in the US. The plans and 'how to article' on their Minuteman II were published in MAN in 1964. ..."

edit:
Oh, and there's a John Barr 'Firebird Too' rat racer plan and article on https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=6746 (MAN 1962)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 03:49:47 AM by PerttiMe »
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Offline qaz049

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2022, 06:34:10 AM »
Thanks for the reply and guidance.  I took a look and I did see that they were somewhat reasonable.  Thanks to you, I'll be saving the information regarding parts contacts.  Thank you!!

Jim

Jim,
 I've just dug this out of my Vintage B class notes. It's an email I recieved from an old Enya Team Race hand from way back about suitable mods to the .29.

I exchange emails with xxxx xxxxxx a B TR guru quite a few years ago about Enya 29 TR mods.

This is basically what he suggested.

This was the advice from my notes paraphrased slightly:

Quote
"I'd recommend going with a well run in Enya 29. It should be nice and free. It might require some fiddling to achieve this. Use a high compression head. The exhaust duration should be about 136/138 degrees. You might have to put a spacer under the cylinder flange to achieve this.The crankcase timing should be:

Open - stock
Close - at 50/55 degrees ATDC.

Use the biggest bore venturi you can which still give you the required laps when using the following:

Prop: APC 8x7
Glowplug: Enya no.5
Fuel: 20% castor, 30% nitro methane, 10% Iso Propyl alcohol, 40% methanol (not Shell A)".

« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 08:05:12 AM by qaz049 »

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2022, 09:35:53 AM »
The engine rule quoted by Pat King is not exactly correct. The rules require a baffle piston .29. This means that the flat top piston ST G21 engines are not permitted.

http://www.nclra.org/Rules/B-TR/VintageBTeamRaceDayton_rev3.pdf
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2022, 09:45:58 AM »
Rambler that won this year's NATS Vintage B Team Race. Veco .29 power. Good solid racer.
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Offline Motorman

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2022, 11:30:23 AM »
Just reading the rules. It says the pilots head in the plane must be a dummy head. Had to be in the rules that we don't want real heads in the plane. That's funny to me.

Motorman 8)

Online bill bischoff

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2022, 07:47:27 PM »
It has to be a dummy head, because nobody smart will put their head in there. n~

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2022, 02:43:47 AM »
Well, there are dimensional minimums for fuselage height and width. All racers should be smart enough to realize that you want to minimize those dimensions to go fast. Unfortunately with this rule, the NCLRA might be liable for a certain, unnamed guy trying to put his own head in there. Not too far-fetched. I also heard his pitman refers to him as "Pinhead."

The Divot

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2022, 02:57:14 AM »
John Barr was an early member of the Valley Circle Burners (San Fernando Valley, CA--part of Los Angeles) so it is frustrating that I don't have a better understanding of his designs and accomplishments.

One design of his that I have seen referenced in Pete Soule's writings is the Minuteman 11:

"Two designs from the Valley Circle Burners, the Barr-Norsikian "Minuteman 11" (MAN) and the Brandt-Soule "Framas 9" (to appear in A.M.) are probably the most recently available."  Those with extensive magazine libraries might be able to track these down?

Dave Hull
President, Valley Circle Burners

Offline pat king

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Re: B Team Racer Plans
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2022, 10:07:11 AM »
All,
Thanks for the great input. The rules for Vintage B Team Race are the Dayton rules on the NCLRA web site. Keeping the engines to engines not larger than .29 with single bypass and baffle top pistons will hopefully keep the class from going into the insanity of .29 size unlimited engine racers.
Anyone that sends me hard copies will have them returned unmolested. Anything I have scanned will have a copy of the scan file sent to the person who sent the hard copy.  I plan to do at least one design with an upright engine and one design with an inverted engine. I may do designs for 3 kits. Once the kit designs are finished, I will send full size .pdf files of the plans for free to anyone who asks.
This is intended to be a fun competition, not to see who can show up with a 120 MPH racer.
Keep your information coming, I have just received 14 pounds of books on Golden Age Air Racers. I am evaluating those airplanes for a possible model. If I have a 3 view I can design a model.

Thanks,  Pat
Pat King
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