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Author Topic: When to switch to sanding sealer.  (Read 2825 times)

Offline Tim Wescott

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When to switch to sanding sealer.
« on: January 23, 2019, 05:48:08 PM »
So, I'm flogging away at two models, one a scale Ercoupe that I'm using as a practice piece for silkspan & dope finishes, one that I got from a friend with severe hanger rash* that I'm repairing.

It has been over 35 years since I attempted a silkspan & dope finish, and back then there was no Internet, so I had to guess.

When do you switch from dope to sanding sealer?  Is it when you get to the point where the silkspan has sealed up, or after the first coat of dope, or what?  (And my, oh my how silkspan soaks up dope -- I'd forgotten).

I'd like to do a trick I saw here, which is to mix some white with the fill coats, to reduce the amount of base coat that's needed.  Does that idea work with sanding sealer?  Or do I need to stick with clear mixed with white for that part?

* The plane, not the friend.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2019, 08:20:52 PM »
Haven't heard of anybody using "Sanding Sealer" in about 50+ years. It's what came before "dope & talc", "primer" and "clear with zinc stearate" . I think it's one of those things that's been replaced with better stuff. Floyd may well have used it; ask him!  LL~ Steve
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2019, 08:23:22 PM »
Cool.  So, when do I switch to it?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2019, 09:16:55 PM »
I'm just returning to the hobby after a 35-40 year lay-off (well, been back for two). I used commercially available sanding sealer (Aerogloss-brand, back in the day) on model rocket fins, body tube seams and on my control line planes' balsa surfaces. This was in the late 70's, early 80's. They sure looked good!
Researching dope-type sanding sealer within the last couple years I got the feeling that talc and dope is the DIY version of the hard to find commercial stuff. I've read that common talc powder (baby powder) these days is too "medicated" to serve the purpose. Apparently you have to mail-order true talc powder or grind chalk.

What I did as a kid was to use dope to seal the wood enough to stop sucking up more dope, with a quick pass of sanding paper to cut the raised grain, and then switch to sanding sealer to fill and smooth the hardened surface of the balsa before my finish coats/colors. I never used it on tissue, only wood. When I was a kid, I never had enough money to keep sanding sealer on hand. I would take clear and add balsa dust, clay dust, and chalk dust to make my own. There was no special recipe...the idea was to fill the grain only. No, I never entered contests, so it had to look good for me, and only me.

So, in a nut shell, I use (DIY talc-filled) sanding sealer after the first two coats of clear on wood. I bet I build heavy...and small-1/2A small. I'm sure other, more professional builders will come along and say how I did it wrong, but until then, you have someone's tried methods. ;)



Offline 944_Jim

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2019, 09:21:17 PM »
Oh, and clear to seal, color to finish. Pigments weigh a bit but don't really seal effectively. Just my $0.02, but due to inflation worth even less!

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2019, 10:10:01 PM »
Thumbs down on "sanding sealer".  When the weave is filled it will turn shiny, sand lightly with 400 and remove any bad high spots.  You haven't sanded yet right?  Steve is right, use zinc stearate or talc mixed with clear dope and a little black to use for a guide coat and put on a heavy coat.  Now sand down to the original finish.  If you really want to go all out next coat will be silver.  Then the fun begins, it will look really ugly.  Sand, fix, sand fix and so on.
Mike

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2019, 11:56:11 PM »
Zinc stearate ordered.  How much white powder should I put into my dope to reach the most euphoric state?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2019, 04:50:44 AM »
Where are you getting the zinc stearate?
Does it work a lot better than corn starch ( which is easy to get) ?

Thanks,

Pat MacKenzie
MAAC 8177

Offline Alan Resinger

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2019, 06:44:51 AM »
Randy Smith is the source most of us use.  I believe he suggests 2- 4 tablespoons per quart of clear.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 07:52:40 AM by Alan Resinger »

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2019, 07:31:37 AM »
You might try your local weight lifting gym, they use it for better grip and it's the same stuff.
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2019, 10:04:25 AM »
Have fun!
Mike

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2019, 12:52:54 PM »
You might try your local weight lifting gym, they use it for better grip and it's the same stuff.

Thanks for that one!

I never thought of that. There are several gyms, and a gymnastics place nearby. "Excuse me, but could you spare a few cups of your magic dust?" That would last a lifetime for me.

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2019, 05:23:16 PM »
I think Howard found a supplier, don't know who or where.  He may or may not say.
Mike

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2019, 01:42:10 AM »
I think Howard found a supplier, don't know who or where.  He may or may not say.

Randy Smith.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2019, 01:56:10 AM »
Here's how the Jive Combat Team does it: http://flyinglines.org/ptg.finishing.html
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2019, 10:46:24 AM »
Hi Tim,
The base should be filled before going to the filler stage.  On silkspan at least four coats of clear, then sand off the high spots and candle the wing (or parts) to make sure the silkspan is filled.  Once you are satisfied the silkspan is filled the switch to the filler.  I've used all the different fillers and they all work just fine in clear dope.  They each have there own + and - so stick with one your choice.  The only caution I have is to not mix the Zink Sterate more than a two table spoons per quart.  Brush on two coats of sealer and allow to dry completely (about a week).

Now the work begins:  Wet sand with 600 wet paper and candle your work making sure the excess filler is removed and the low spots are filled in.  Now spray a heavy coat of clear to seal the filler.  Wet sand again with 1000 wet and candle it again.

There is NO EASY WAY TO APPLY A DOPE FUNISH, it hard work if you want a great looking finish, but there is nothing as AWESOME as a rubbed out dope finish.

Later,
Mikey

PS.  I want to put a finer point on this.
For Iron on covering:  The time or spend on building and assembling the, your about halfway done.  To do a good job on covering your model you need to spend time to prep the model for covering.  For example; the entire model must be sanded down in progressively lighter grad of sand paper (220 to 360 grit).

Dope Finish;  Dope finish is to start with fully sanded model just like the above.  Three to four coats of clear dope lightly sanded between each coat the remove the fuss and raised wood.  Cover model with silkspan (silk, polyspan).  Once the model covering is trimmed, apply an additional three to four coats of clear dope, again lightly sand between each coat to the entire model.  This is the best time to apply the fillits on the fuselage & wing joint and stabilizer to fuse joints.  After the fillits are cured, sand the fillits to smooth surface and apply three coats of clear dope to (just the fillits) and allow to dry, lightly sand the fillits to remove the shine.  At this point you can brush on two to three coats primer or sanding sealer and allow the primer to cure for about a week.  This allows the dope to shrink into the grain of the wood and wet sand with 360 or 400 grit sandpaper.  Wipe down the model twice with Windex and paper towels and inspect your work, if you sanded too much, reapply primer to the affected area and re sand.  Note:  From this point on spray all additional dope is sprayed on (not brushed).  Another thing I never used silver as a base filler coat.  If I do use a silver base coat I sand as much of the silver off that I can leaving just the low spots filled with the silver.  Spray two coats base color and allow to dry at least a week, and them wet sand with 1000 grit paper.  Shot one to two coats of the base color again and your should be ready to start applying the trim colors.  Once you have applied the trim colorsrub the edges of the trim colors with a credit card to remove the edges of the tape line (again clean the model with Windex & paper towels).  After you have your lettering and ink lines on, spray one coat of clear on the edges of the contrasting trim to help nail down the ink lines and edges of trim.  Carefully sand the edges of all the trim lines to remove the raised edges of the paint trim.  At this point you can either spray on additional coats of clear dope or switch to automotive clear.
The time it takes to apply a great dope finish takes about twice or three times as long as it did to build the model.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 03:12:27 PM by MikeyPratt »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2019, 11:55:07 AM »
I know it ain't easy -- I also know it'll be harder if I fumble something in the middle, which is why I'm checking in with the experts!  Heaven forbid that I should get discouraged and switch back to Monocoat and Rustoleum.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2019, 06:46:09 PM »
I don't see it on the Aero Products web site ???

I did find it on ebay,  $25 for 500 grams.  Ships from China.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zinc-Stearate-Powder-U01S-/173619592633

If my math is right that is enough for 15 quarts of dope

( 2 tablespoons/ quart= 29.57 cc.
  Zinc Stearate - 1.1 g/cc , 500 grams = 454 cc
454/29.57 ~ 15 batches)

Is this similar in price to what Randy charges?
Getting stuff shipped from US to Canada is often more of a hassle than getting stuff from China.

Getting white powder in the mail from China - should not attract much attention at all  <=

Pat MacKenzie
MAAC 8177

Offline Alan Buck

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2019, 09:05:20 PM »
what is in sanding sealer that is bad
ALAN E BUCK

Offline George Truett

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2019, 06:38:12 AM »
It's on the engine & accessories page, not exactly where you would expect, $17.95/qt (may be old price).  Look just above table with engine prices.
http://www.aeroproduct.net/

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2019, 06:52:07 AM »
It's on the engine & accessories page, not exactly where you would expect, $17.95/qt (may be old price).  Look just above table with engine prices.
http://www.aeroproduct.net/

Thanks,
Better price than from China, I will drop him an email.
MAAC 8177

Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2019, 03:08:09 PM »
what is in sanding sealer that is bad

Non scented talcum powder.

Mikey


Offline Alan Buck

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2019, 07:57:31 PM »
thank you Mike I will go to zinc streatate
ALAN E BUCK

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: When to switch to sanding sealer.
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2019, 05:10:10 PM »
Alan,
The problem with the sanding sealer talcum power is finished weight. Talc by itself is several times heavier than the  zinc stearate. It also acts like a sponge and absorbs lots of dope. In the end if you do it right there should not be a lot of filler left on the surface. I like the old Windy U approach of using silver dope as the filler and sand it off until you get a very smooth surface ready for color. One thing about using silver the first coat will make you wonder if you have the same ship you had before the silver. Silver shows every flaw, you sand it off and fix the flaw then recoat  but by the time get to about the third coat it starts looking really good and ready for color.

From what Windy did in his videos the Brodak silver with Brodak thinner works really good and dries out ready to sand each coat in only a few days. The Sig silver with Sig thinner needs a week before sanding. However, Sig with Brodak thinner also dries very fast and can be sanded in 3 -4 days.

Best,    DennisT


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