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Author Topic: Warning! Two part failure.  (Read 1148 times)

Online Will Hinton

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Warning! Two part failure.
« on: September 13, 2018, 05:10:10 PM »
I have been spraying two part clear for several years and swear by it.  Today I almost swore AT it.  I use it on guitars and basses, and on my airplanes.  I have trusted it to be fule PROOF, not just resistant, and it has proven to be just that.
I've sprayed it over just about everything you can think of for the stunters and instruments.  I've even sprayed some other materials over it, all with no problems.
BUT - I'm finishing a guitar with tinted nitro cellulous lacquer to get a sunburst red followed, as usual, with two part.
I sanded through on an edge today, so went into the paint room and lightly shot some red tinted lacquer on the spot to touch it up.  Now, before you jump all over me, I know you cannot spray nitrate over butyrate, etc.  But this was going over death paint which supposedly will take anything.  Not so.
The edges of the area where I shot the tiny little spritz of nitro cell bubbled up about 1/8 inch into the clear!
I tell you about this so you can be advised of the possibilities of this type of problem.  I'm dealing with hard maple, and all I did was lightly sand the bubbled area down with dry sandpaper until it was smooth, then shot the entire back of the neck and the edge with a zillion coats of the two part.  Problem solved.
But if this were to happen with balsa, repair would be much more troubling.
So, if you're doing an unusual task involving two part, I reccomend you do the old "try a sample first" trick.
It ain't cast iron like I thought. S?P
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2018, 08:18:09 PM »
It may have been the thinner in the new lacquer migrating into the old stuff and getting trapped. I suspect that normally a new coat would flash off before it could really eat into the coat underneath.

This is guessing, mind you.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2018, 05:49:05 AM »
"Good" Will Hinton,

Was you're "nitro cellulous lacquer" dope, Sig or Randolph?

"lightly shot some red tinted lacquer."  Was this also Sig or Randolph "dope?"

What "other materials" have you sprayed over the 2K clears?

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Offline jfv

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2018, 07:55:14 AM »
Never had any luck with lacquer over 2K during repairs.  The 2K aways crinkles when lacquer sprayed on.  I usually sand the clear back away from the repair, mask off, then color.  Need to feather the edge where the color was masked, then re-shoot the 2K.  Lots of work and time.  On one plane where I wasn't looking for a 20 point finish, I repaired the area that was damaged, then I put on a blocking coat of Eze-Kote before I sprayed the colored lacquer.  Followed with 2K.  That worked well.  Came out better than I expected 

Jim Vigani

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2018, 07:58:30 AM »
"Never had any luck with lacquer over 2K during repairs."

What lacquer?

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Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2018, 08:03:12 AM »
Tim, that possibility entered my mind this morning, but as much a guess as yours.

Charles,  I don't use "dope" as such, this was stringed instrument lacquer from Stewart McDonald luthier supply but I maintain that it is the same stuff as nitrate dope due to the properties and characteristics.  I've sprayed a ton of both over the years.  Bill Byles could give us the straight skinny on the comparison.

Jim, I'm not glad you've had the same trouble, but I am happy to know my experience wasn't a lone wolf thing.  Sounds like you did what I ended up doing.  I'm just happy I didn't need to do the entire instrument!
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Offline jfv

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2018, 11:00:02 AM »
Charles:

I use Duplicolor Paint Shop lacquer for color a lot.  I really like it.  Comes in quart cans and sprays well.  Can be thinned with Sig thinner.

Will:

I do like the 2K clear for what it does, but I find it a pain when you have to make small repairs if your not using an auto base coat.  But I guess everything is a compromise.
Jim Vigani

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2018, 11:45:14 AM »
Two part urethane is fairly impervious to most stuff. Highly fuel resistant, but not fuel proof. Trust me, if you soak it in fuel, it will react. But it's not impervious to thinner or acetone or other solvents. There are tricks to touching up stuff, but you can't just spray butyrate or nitrate over it. It will reaction to the solvents.
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Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2018, 06:28:36 PM »
I do use acetone for my cleanup, find it does a more complete job on the gun(s).
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2018, 10:38:59 AM »
Will,

If you want to fix a plane with lacquer color and a catalyzed topcoat, easiest way with best results is this:

Clean the area as well as you can. Any wax or other stuff needs to be off the surface. Sand back from the repair area an inch or two. Make sure you don't go through the underlying color around the edges. Make the repair and build the area  up as normal (silkspan or whatever, dope, filler, whatever your method is). Use an airbrush to shoot color back on the area. be careful to just spray the repair area and try not to get too much on the surrounding clear. Lightly sand the entire area. Once you are happy with the repair and color, shoot catalyzed clear over the entire repair and onto the old clear. Once done and before it catalyzes, empty the gun of paint. Just pour out any in the cup, don't clean the gun, and fill the cup with urethane reducer. Shoot the areas around the outside of the clear you just shot on, working outward. Don't lay it on too heavily. This will allow the new clear to bind with the old clear and sink a bit. once catalyzed, sand the area with fine sand paper (2000 grit) and polish back up. If done right, the repair with be undetectable.

My two cent for the day.
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Offline billbyles

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2018, 09:13:20 PM »
Two part urethane is fairly impervious to most stuff. Highly fuel resistant, but not fuel proof. Trust me, if you soak it in fuel, it will react. But it's not impervious to thinner or acetone or other solvents. There are tricks to touching up stuff, but you can't just spray butyrate or nitrate over it. It will reaction to the solvents.

Not sure just what kind of polyurethane/catalyst you are using but the stuff I have used for years is impervious to raw fuel, exhaust residue, etc.  Additionally, I can wet (not damp, wet) a rag with MEK, acetone, or thinner (butyrate or lacquer) and wipe the airplane off with no problem at all.  Don't know how you are having the problems but the two-part polyurethane is being badly maligned by you because I just do not see those problems.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2018, 05:32:52 AM »
Not sure just what kind of polyurethane/catalyst you are using but the stuff I have used for years is impervious to raw fuel, exhaust residue, etc.  Additionally, I can wet (not damp, wet) a rag with MEK, acetone, or thinner (butyrate or lacquer) and wipe the airplane off with no problem at all.  Don't know how you are having the problems but the two-part polyurethane is being badly maligned by you because I just do not see those problems.

I agree, ditto 100%.

You must read the can and NOT reduce the product beyond the recommendation of the manufacturer.

Not sure if this is the issue?







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Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2018, 06:17:50 AM »
Thanks for all the answers and coaching guys, I truly appreciate it.  As to what clear I'm using, it's the Nason brand, which is actually made by Dupont, and yes, Bill, it IS fuel PROOF.  That is why I was so shocked to see the bubbling up at my touch up site!  Never in all the world did I expect THAT.
I was able to lightly sand the bubble down to the surface and use the same technique Randy spoke of to blend it in and then shoot the two part on the blended area. 
This instrument is the guitar from, well, you know where, because I've had another problem with the buffing, but that's my own fault for not cleaning my buffing wheels good enough.  Oh well, next airplane will still get Nason clear!
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2018, 01:12:25 PM »
I had a plane topcoated with Matrix 4 to 1 clear. Never had a problem with fuel on this clear until I had a tank leak. Plane was upside down in a rack between flights and fuel ran down the outside and dripped off to top block onto the ground. Was soaked for maybe 5 minutes. Turn the plane over and the the clear was bubbled and pealing. The stuff is certainly fuel resistant. Compared to lacquer, extremely fuel resistant. But not fuel proof. And certainly not acetone or lacquer thinner proof. Yes, you can get away with a just damp cloth with solvent on it to clean the plane, but the stuff is not impervious.

But whatever. It's like guys complaining that their hardware store lacquer thinner doesn't work with Randolph's dope. Don't follow the manufacturer's recommendations and you are taking a chance.
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Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2018, 03:21:47 PM »
Yep, that's for sure.  The cheap thinner is great for cleaning the gun after dope, etc. 
Bill, what are your thoughts as far as nitro cellulouse lacquer being a version of nitrate dope?  Any experience there?
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Offline Vincent Judd

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2018, 07:36:09 AM »
Will, would enjoy seeing some pictures of your guitars, they sound beautiful.  Any chance you could share?

Regards,

Vince

Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2018, 09:12:07 AM »
Thanks Vince, I can put a couple on here.  I eliminated my website last year because word of mouth is keeping me plenty busy and it was a pain to maintain the way I wanted it.
This acoustic is the latest one out of my shop.  Itis my 46th instrument.  If you would like to see more, PM me and I'll send to you directly.  I have solid bodies, semi-hollow bodies, different sizes of acoustics, basses etc. out there being played and love to spread the word.
But I don't like to take up Sparky's bandwidth here since they don't fly.  Thanks, though, for your interest.
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Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2018, 09:13:19 AM »
This is the tiger wood back of the same instrument.
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline billbyles

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2018, 08:55:30 PM »
Yep, that's for sure.  The cheap thinner is great for cleaning the gun after dope, etc. 
Bill, what are your thoughts as far as nitro cellulouse lacquer being a version of nitrate dope?  Any experience there?

Hi Will,

Nitro cellulose lacquer is not the same as nitrate or butyrate dope, but they are in the same family.  However, you can apply butyrate dope over automotive lacquer if you are careful not to flood coat the dope.  If you do get the dope on way too wet it will soften and "float" the lacquer underneath the dope.  I used to use automotive acrylic lacquer on top of the clear buildup dope because there was such a huge variety of colors available in the lacquers.  However, the automotive acrylic lacquer has little to no fuel resistance so I always used Sig Light Coat clear butyrate on top of the lacquer as the Sig has fair fuel resistance.

Unfortunately it is a moot point since automotive acrylic lacquer is no longer available here in So Cal.
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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2018, 09:03:04 PM »


Snip<I had a plane topcoated with Matrix 4 to 1 clear.>snip

*By "4 to 1 clear" are you stating the ratio of base clear to catalyst?  All of the polyurethanes that I use are minimum of 3 to 1 base to catalyst ratio; with a 4:1 ratio you do not get sufficient cross-linking to have the chemical resistance needed.

But whatever. It's like guys complaining that their hardware store lacquer thinner doesn't work with Randolph's dope. Don't follow the manufacturer's recommendations and you are taking a chance.

*I couldn't agree more.
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Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2018, 06:10:47 AM »
Thaks Bill, I really appreciate your experience and willingness to share it.  I don't often even consider "mixing" compounds, but, as you shared, sometimes an alternative can really liven up a color scheme.
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2018, 07:39:51 AM »
Will,
Is the clear you are using a 2 part in a spray rattle can or due you use your own gun to spray it. We have had very good results with SprayMax 3684061, 2K Clear Coat. It is high gloss clear in a rattle can that has a push button activator. They have a new product 3684064, 2K Rapid Clear Coat, it is also high gloss and flashes off dust free in 7 mins. It is available on this web site: https://repaintsupply.com/spraymax-3684064-2k-rapid-clear-coat-p6058.html. These products have a shelf life of about a week once activated (maybe two if refrigorated). For your business you could have several pieces ready and get them with one can. Don't know how many coats you nomally shoot, on a stunt ship I use two coats and that seems to work well.


Best,   DennisT


Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2018, 10:36:23 AM »
Hi Dennis,
I'm using two part Nason which I buy by the quart.  It's a bit less than $40.00 a quart including catalyst and that will do myriads of instruments.  Best part of that is I can mix as little as one ounce to use in my air brush for touch up or different tinted effects.  I use a lot of aniline dye for color combos on sunbursts, etc.
Since I only build two instruments at a time, my shelf life is important for my use.  I've looked at the rattle cans as a possible source, but find my ability to mix very tiny amounts or large amounts to be a real plus.
The number of coats varies depending on the type of wood and/or what the customer wants as far as shine or no shine.  (Matte)  The current solid body I'm finishing right now had four, that's right, FOUR heavy coats on it.  The dude plays in some really dark venues  and wanted a shine that requires sunglasses in the crowd!  Since it's a solid body the heavy finish won't suppress the sound like it would an acoustic.  I typically use two coats on an acoustic, a medium and then a heavy, but I know most of that second coat is going to be sanded off while leveling the finish.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2018, 01:46:05 PM »
"*By "4 to 1 clear" are you stating the ratio of base clear to catalyst?  All of the polyurethanes that I use are minimum of 3 to 1 base to catalyst ratio; with a 4:1 ratio you do not get sufficient cross-linking to have the chemical resistance needed. "

I've never seen three to one, but then most of my experience is with auto clears. Matrix is formulated to handle extreme temps. It's used a lot on large vehicles that spend a lot of time in the weather. It's formulated as a 4 to 1 and is quite hard. I have also used pPg 2 to 1 clears like Durethane and Spectrachron. They are OK  but pretty expensive and I didn't see any real benefit except they take longer to completely harden so you have a bit more time for sanding and buffing. I've tried DuPont stuff (Nason and Omni), but didn't care much for them. I've used some of these on cars but most have been tried on model planes.

Right now I'm using HOK UC35 with KU150 hardener. It's a show car topcoat that I am really starting to like.
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Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2018, 03:24:47 PM »
Randy, you say "show car topcoat" and that grabs my attention.  Is it a higher shine than the Nason?  (Can't imagine how that could be, but there has to be some reason you like it better.)
I'll try anything that will knock my customer's eyes out and still be rugged.  (Some of these guys think their instruments are also stage hammers.)
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Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2018, 11:04:16 PM »
For "shine" I've had the best luck with PPG Deltron 3000, which is 4 to 1.  After cured nearly impossible to sand.
Mike

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2018, 02:13:43 PM »
>>For "shine" I've had the best luck with PPG Deltron 3000, which is 4 to 1.  After cured nearly impossible to sand.<<'

Man, isn't that the truth. I've used Deltron a bit. The Matrix I was using was the same way. If you wait too long to sand, you regret it. Stuff is quite hard after a few days.

Will,

House of Kolor stuff is designed for show cars. Upside is, the shine is deep and clear. Great for really involved paint jobs. And under lights is blindingly bright. Down side it, it's somewhat fragile. I wouldn't leave something painted with HOK out in the sun for days at a time. Wouldn't be great for a working pickup for instance. It's very chip resistant so there's that. But it can fade if left exposed. It's just a nice topcoat for shine and luster. And it's fairly east to work with.
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Offline Jerry Rauch

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2018, 04:50:41 PM »
I've used 2 part Clears ever since they came out and learned a LOT. I've been friends with a Dupont Tech (now Axalta) since 1983. He has shown me a lot over the years. Some tips I've learned the hard way:
Before you touch ANYTHING to be painted or cleared CLEAN it with Ajax using a scuff pad and a little water. Ajax will remove any oils or silicones from the surface.
After that you can clean it again wiping with wax and grease remover.
If you have an air compressor, drain the filter, better yet, clean the filter element that is in the filter with lacquer thinner, this strips away any oil. Make sure your air hose has NO oil residue in it.
The biggest ruiner of 2 part clears (urethanes) is oil and silicone. They both cause fish eyes. Piling the clear on each coat is asking for runs, solvent trapping, and adding a lot of unnecessary weight.

On the first coat of clear, lightly dust on the first coat, then, PUT THE GUN DOWN, walk away for 5 minutes or so. Resist the temptation to put on a heavy coat!
Only AFTER 5 minutes or so put on another coat somewhat heavier than the first, watching the pattern and sheen of the coat. Watching like this avoids runs. PUT THE GUN DOWN for at least 10 minutes. You want the solvents in the clear to flash off and not become trapped under the next coat. if that happens you will get solvent popping, which is impossible to polish out permanently. Clears need 3 coats, not including the dust coat, for depth and protection, and to allow for buffing. Nason is AXALTA, but not the latest technology, and not the higher price, but still somewhat expensive.

Offline Joseph Patterson

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2018, 08:33:49 AM »
       Will, that guitar is one beautiful instrument!!!
         Doug

Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2018, 05:06:42 PM »
Thank you Doug, I appreciate that.  I'm living the dream.

Randy, thanks for the info, I might just need to build an experimental instrument to see what the HOK can do for me in that field.  I especially like the no chipping aspect - these guys can really brutilize their stuff.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2018, 03:07:05 PM »
Yes, well, the HOK stuff is resistant to dings, not impervious. But pretty good.
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Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2018, 08:32:32 AM »
Oh boy, you ain't gonna believe what happened to me.  I had the instrument in question ready to buff, all places repaired and such, when a customer brought a piece in for a quick adjustment.  His TWO year old was with him and slipped away from him unnoticed.  We heard a huge bang and then a horrifying scraping noise and ran to find the two year iold dragging the guitar across the CEMENT floor!!!  I could have....well, not a nice thing to think.
So, I now had yet another repair to do on the edge of the unit.  I went about it the normal way until it was time to spray the tinted red, then I got hit with a rush of common sense.  Instead of fighting it the way I had before with the chance of screwing up the clear I mixed a small bit of finishing resin (Z-Poxy) and put a really fine coat over the area, shot it after it cured, then laid new clear over that and "presto", ready to buff again.  It looks good and I'm hurriedly mounting hardware before anything else can happen!!!
The Z-Pxy is so useful in so many places and (I shouldn't say this because I'll jinx it) pretty impervious to everything.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2018, 02:37:38 PM »
Yep. I love that stuff.
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Offline Vincent Judd

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2018, 12:47:43 PM »
This is the tiger wood back of the same instrument.

Just beautiful, nicely done.

Vince

Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2018, 06:05:00 PM »
Well, the problem child is finally done and ready for sale.  I'm calling it a second and will be happy just to break even on it.  Plays nice, sounds great, but, it was still a problem child and needs to go.
I plan do do another with lighted fretboard right away, I really like the concept!
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Online Will Hinton

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Re: Warning! Two part failure.
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2018, 06:06:15 PM »
The back.
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