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Author Topic: SLC OVER Polyspan?  (Read 48898 times)

Offline Larry Renger

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SLC OVER Polyspan?
« on: July 18, 2013, 11:10:57 PM »
It seems as though one can apply SLC covering over undoped Polyspan, and get a slick, incredibly light base for painting.  I'm going to try it on a plane I am rebuilding. News as it happens.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2013, 08:21:51 AM »
In my experience that is backwards.   It is SLC first then the Poly-Span to get the silkspan look so many like.  Also doing the SLC first you have to remember to get the scouring pad out and buff it a little.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2013, 09:23:59 AM »
Yes, Doc, I know it is backwards. But I don't want a silkspan look finish, I want a super light high gloss paint finish.

By using the SLC instead of dope, it should bond everywhere to the Polyspan and make an extra strong and slick covering job.

My actual question was whether it has been tried!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2013, 07:11:35 PM »
OK, I am trying this type of finish!

See my Baby Clown thread in the 1/2A section for progress.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2013, 04:00:02 PM »
It works fantastic!  The weight, by an actual test sample, is 1.46 oz/sq.yard.  The structural rigidity it adds is amazing.  I have some technique to work on as far as flawless tips, but the ones I did aren't horrible.

Now I need to work on how to properly paint it.  I have a sample piece drying. It is Painters' Choice right on the steel wool buffed SLC.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 07:12:25 AM »
The point is to not have to fill the Polyspan weave with heavy coats of dope and filler. The SLC does all that, and by bonding to the Polyspan adds tremendous rigidity to the wing structure. The only dope used is enough to bond the Polyspan to the wing structure. No dope on the open bays at all!

I expect that the SLC underneath with Polyspan doped over it gets the same strength gain, and is reputed to save weight compared to filling the weave with dope alone. But SLC on top does it all, lighter.

If one used dyed covering such as silkspan, your finish would be done in one shot. Also, use of some of the ultralight films intended for parkflyers becomes practical for big models. More experimentationto be done!

See the Baby Clown thread in the 1/2A section for a photo of the wing.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 08:24:28 AM by Larry Renger »
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2013, 10:38:16 AM »
Hi.

It depends on what is your idea of a slick surface. The plastic film will propably mirror all imperfections from the base surface, it means that the paper has to be filled well anyway. Personally I would do it in the opposite way.
But for quick & dirty finish, why not!

Lauri

Ps. People should test the polyester fabric (ripstop) materials, like Icarex, in cl models too. They are extremely strong, stabile and easy to use. They have allready made the Polyspan allmost history in Many free flight categories.

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2013, 10:52:25 AM »
The imperfections can be filled with primer on the SLC after a quick wet sanding to kill the gloss. There is no reason to fill the paper!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2013, 11:01:24 AM »
Sorry, didn't notice that you are going to paint it, too. In that case, why not. Or just forget the Polyspan and cover with slightly thicker Mylar (I guess that's what SLC is, too). It can be painted, that's the standard practise in eastern Europe. L

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2013, 04:24:11 PM »
With out doing actual destructive impact tests, I believe the composite of fiber and film is way tougher and more rigid than either alone.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2013, 03:39:40 PM »
Hello Larry,
I don't have a clue what SLC is, but it sounds as though your system is similar to mine. I cover the airfame with very thin mylar that the FF boys use. Stick it on with balsaloc or thinned down impct adhesive. then cover with dyed silk and one coat of 50/50% thinned dope. Fuel proof to taste. It is incredibly strong and lighter than silk onits own as you don't need to seal the silk.

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2013, 11:15:34 PM »
Nope, sorry, you have completely missed the point! The Polyspan, silk, japanese tissue, or silkspan is attached only around the periphery, then the SLC (super light covering, a vey thin Mylar with adhesive coating) is applied OVER it and heat bonded to the fiber underlayer. The fiber layer, whatever it is, is NOT DOPED IN THE OPEN BAYS. The SLC provides both the function of filler, binding film and fuel proofing even if no other finish is applied.

The result is a composite covering that is incredibly light, tough and rigid, but fuel proof or paint ready without multiple layers of dope and filler.

This way of covering is exactly reversed from your standard practice of covering with SLC then applying one of the fiber coverings doped over it. Yes that works, but you still have to then apply dope to fill the fiber and fuelproof it. Putting the SLC on top of the raw fiber gives you the same strength with a LOT less work, time and weight. Also, IMHO a better finish than I have the patience to achieve otherwise.

As mentioned elsewhere, with Polyspan, the result weighs. only 1.4 ounces per sq.yard.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Bill Little

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2013, 01:31:35 PM »
With out doing actual destructive impact tests, I believe the composite of fiber and film is way tougher and more rigid than either alone.

Hi Larry,

I agree 100% on your supposition that the two, together, are stronger than either alone.

BIG Bear
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2013, 09:32:58 PM »
One day of flying, and so far, no separation.  I will keep everyone posted on how this technique works out on the long term.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2013, 09:47:50 PM »
Two weeks later, all is still staying stuck where it is  supposed to.  So far, so good. Give it a try! No dope on the Polyspan, the SLC bonds to it and stabilizes the structure like you wouldn't believe, and then provides a totally smooth surface for painting (after you rough up the outer surface with wet sanded 600 grit) I don't think you even need primer! Maybe for a 20 point finish, a primer coat and blocking coat might be needed, but not for us normal mortals.

Think about it, 1 sq yard will cover just about any model you can imagine, and it only weight 1.5 ounces ready for paint.  What does a dope over tissue or Polyspan surface weigh for that area? or even a Polyspan OVER SLC?  You are totally eliminating the filler coats of dope to achieve a smooth surface, not counting the time and effort required. The bond between the SLC and fiber is really strong. Dope would just get in the way.

My next trick is to try some of the ultra-light park flyer coverings over the Polyspan to get color without paint at all!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2013, 08:30:01 PM »
Anyone else tried this yet?  H^^
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2013, 09:04:49 AM »
My next plane.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2013, 10:44:37 PM »
So, what brave soul will be the first to try this? It REALLY works.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2013, 07:11:54 PM »
I'm curious as to whether we even need the polyspan.  After all, the SLC on my speed limit combat ships took a horrible beating and held up.  Can we just use SLC for our covering and save the labor/weight?
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2013, 06:57:56 AM »
I dunno, try it and you tell us!  

I think that technique is called Monokoating. except for the painting part. VD~

The point to the laminating technique is that the resulting composite covering seems to be incredibly rigid and tough. It should also not allow spreading tears if punctured. Mind you, I'm not going to crash into a tree or something to prove that!

Time will tell whether it is resistant to wrinkling with temperature changes as film-only coverings do.

People have been using SLC/Polyspan composite covering for years, but in my opinion, backwards, resulting in excess work, extra expense and mostly weight penalty. With the SLC over the Polyspan you automatically have a filled, smooth surface ready for final finish. 

Since the film bonds fully to the fibers, the result is way stronger and more stable than either alone.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2013, 08:28:45 AM »
I have several planes with just SLC covering.  A couple I darkened with magic marker before covering the plane.  One I painted the SLC after using scouring pad.   I want to try Larry's method on the next plane.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline phil c

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2013, 06:24:06 PM »
Thanks for the interesting experiment Larry.  It's a good idea.  I don't like to build wings with wood, cause they really break in a crash.  So I've ended up with a foam wing, filled with lightweight filler(1 oz), covered with SLC (1.5 oz) on a 700 sq.in. wing plus fuse and tail feathers, one coat of primer sanded off(20 gr), one coat of white enamel(2 oz) and some trim coloring(1 oz).   About 6 oz. from the bare structure.
phil Cartier

Jim Roselle

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2013, 07:01:22 AM »
Does the poly/slc loosen when exposed to heat and intense sunlight like ultracoat and monokote do?

Jim

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 08:59:55 AM »
Not so far. It has been hot here, but only been out with it about 4 days.

Update to 6 days with 90 deg temps experienced.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 09:06:13 PM by Larry Renger »
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Online Rick Huff

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2014, 06:45:19 AM »
Larry,
Any further reports?  Is there any paint peeling or covering delaminating?
Thanks,
Rick

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2014, 08:31:04 AM »
Lauri,
Icarex is used in kites. Is it heat shrinkable like polyspan?
AMA 7544

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2014, 06:47:07 AM »
I am not familiar with Icarex, so can't give you an answer.

Larry
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2014, 08:26:23 AM »
Yes it heat-shrinks. Icarex is OK and many people use it. But now there is a slightly better (lighter) japanese equivalent, made by Daichi Orimono.
Just to make it airtight it does not need dope (unlike Icarex) but I put 2 coats and then wet sand #2000 to make surface better.
You glue it on with thinned contact cement (UHU for soft plastics is best): 3 coats to framework and then iron it on.

L

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2014, 08:35:31 AM »
Where can you buy this material?
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2014, 08:57:47 AM »
You should ask local FF guys..? Not those who do the vintage crap, but real FAI free flight people.
I get mine via friends in Norway or Finland so don't really know about real distributors. L

Ps. I see you live in California. I'll be there in February to fly some FF, in Lost Hills.

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2014, 09:10:28 PM »
Wow, 1000 + views! And nobody has tried it?  HB~>
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Akihiro Danjo

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2014, 12:19:03 AM »
Yes it heat-shrinks. Icarex is OK and many people use it. But now there is a slightly better (lighter) japanese equivalent, made by Daichi Orimono.
Just to make it airtight it does not need dope (unlike Icarex) but I put 2 coats and then wet sand #2000 to make surface better.
You glue it on with thinned contact cement (UHU for soft plastics is best): 3 coats to framework and then iron it on.

L

Hi Lauri san,
Isn't it POWER RIP?
Power Rip is produced by Teijin and distributed by Daiichi Orimono.

I have never used the plastic films without heat-adhesive coating.
How do you overlap the films around wing tip? Brush on some glue over the first film before overlapping?
Is it easy to cover the tip? Heat, pull and heat-glue just like other plastic flims?

Aki

PS, I remember that the model of my profile photo is covered with SLC over Silkpan...sorry, not Polyspan

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2014, 10:12:36 AM »
Hi Aki!

It's very possible. But I am not sure, I will confirm it from my supplier.
I never cover tips or even D-box with it, only open construction. I cover each wing panel (F1A) with one piece, wrapping around t.e. Glue seam in perimeter is 3...5mm wide.
I cover carbon D-box and tips with lightest modellspan paper and then over seams with light Esaki tissue.
Paper-covered D-boxes are slightly lighter, better looking and easier to repair.

Lauri


Online Rick Huff

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2014, 12:44:09 PM »
Larry,

I have covered two planes with your concept of SLC over polyspan.  The first was my brother's RSM Mark 1 trainer.  He didn't want it painted and was very happy with the "look" of the SLC over polyspan.  It's also tough as nails.  The second plane I covered with SLC over polyspan is my new Joe Dill Chipmunk.  I painted the SLC (after scuffing with 2000 grit sandpaper) with auto 2-part acrylic urethane.   It came out beautifully.  Attached is a photo of it (without its canopy).  Of course, I'm hoping that it stays looking that way.  Only time will tell.

Rick

Online Tom Luciano

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2014, 04:26:57 PM »
Looks great Rick!!

Tom
AMA 13001

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2014, 08:28:17 AM »
Beautiful indeed! Any idea what the weight saving was?  H^^
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2014, 09:42:34 AM »
Will try to remember to try this on my next plane.   I didn't think of it or remember when I did the RSM Ringmaster and the Canard Ringmaster.   
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Online Rick Huff

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2014, 01:51:38 PM »
Larry,
I don't know for sure, but the entire finish including the weight of the Polyspan and SLC was 7 oz.  I'm pretty sure it would have been heavier with either silkspan or polyspan (by the time I filled the voids).  However, the SLC over Polyspan is so much tougher that I would use it even if there weren't any weight savings.  I guess I'm most concerned about the long term behavior of the SLC over Polyspan.  Will there be any paint delaminations, will there be any wrinkles?  After one month, there are absolutely no problems. 
Thank you for coming up with, and sharing this concept.
Rick

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2014, 08:55:52 PM »
Larry what heat setting are you using on your iron to iron down the SLC to the Polyspan?

Thank you
Mike

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2014, 03:24:14 PM »
I use just enough heat to activate the adhesive until I get to the tips, then enough to allow stretching the film.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2014, 04:23:16 PM »
Do you use your heat gun at all.  The reason I am asking is that I am going to try this.

Thanks

Mike

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2014, 06:06:18 AM »
I rarelyuse a heat gun as I tend to burn holes. HB~>
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Akihiro Danjo

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2014, 11:37:48 AM »
Do you use your heat gun at all.  The reason I am asking is that I am going to try this.

Thanks

Mike

Mike san,
Even a 500W hair dryer can burn holes, so you don't have to use a heat gun at all.
I cannot remember why I know about it....

Aki

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2014, 07:14:49 PM »
I just checked the date for when I did the first job, and it was early July. So far no problems except abrasions from inverted landings... :-[ Didn't go all the way through, though. That combo is TOUGH!  #^
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline billbyles

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2014, 04:01:41 PM »
Larry,
I don't know for sure, but the entire finish including the weight of the Polyspan and SLC was 7 oz. I'm pretty sure it would have been heavier with either silkspan or polyspan (by the time I filled the voids).  However, the SLC over Polyspan is so much tougher that I would use it even if there weren't any weight savings.  I guess I'm most concerned about the long term behavior of the SLC over Polyspan.  Will there be any paint delaminations, will there be any wrinkles?  After one month, there are absolutely no problems.  
Thank you for coming up with, and sharing this concept.
Rick

"...but the entire finish including the weight of the Polyspan and SLC was 7 oz."

The weight of the entire cover (silkspan) and dope finish on my Impact (700 in^2) is 8 oz.  Larry has seen the finish; I'd estimate from my last Impact (which had the same cover and finish) that it is an 18 to 19 point finish. My last Impact had over 2,200 flights on it with the same cover & finish and while I will grant that the SLC over Polyspan is a much tougher cover I never did get any holes/tears in the cover including trips to the Nats & many other contests.  The new process might be the way to go if you tend to get holes/tears in your cover, if you are in a situation where you are unable to use a dope finish, or just don't want to do that much work to get the finish.
Bill Byles
AMA 20913
So. Cal.

Online Rick Huff

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2014, 01:18:13 PM »
Bill,
Thanks for the encouragement to a beginner flier.
Rick

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2014, 01:36:31 PM »
Sounds like a great way to cover a model.

What I don't understand is how do you keep the overlap from showing when you paint?

Or do you do both top and bottom together?
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2014, 09:34:27 AM »
When you are several feet away the overlap does not show.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2014, 05:21:06 AM »
A light dusting of primer will hide the seam when sanding the film for painting. That is the only place you really need to prime if you are worried about it.
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Offline Doug Burright

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Re: SLC OVER Polyspan?
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2015, 11:06:12 PM »
Larry,

So, just what the heck IS SLC, and where do we get it?
 I know the process for silkspan and dope, etc., but what is the SLC?
I would be more than happy to put a lighter, stronger finish on the airplane, but have no idea what the SLC is.
Please explain.
Thanks,
Doug.
I will build it. It's gonna be really difficult to find me with an ARF. I know every bit of my airplane!


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