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Author Topic: Klass Kote application technique  (Read 1797 times)

Offline Mike Alimov

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Klass Kote application technique
« on: April 10, 2021, 03:07:20 PM »
I decided to try Klass Kote this year. However, at this price point, there's not a whole lot of extra paint to experiment with. My only other enamel experience is with rattle can Rustoleum, which likes a light mist coat followed by a full coat about 15 minutes later, and it flows out to glossy.
What's the technique for Klass Kote? How many coats and re-coat times? HVLP or siphon gun? Air pressure? Thinner ratio? The website instructions are a little vague.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2021, 05:06:43 PM »
I decided to try Klass Kote this year. However, at this price point, there's not a whole lot of extra paint to experiment with. My only other enamel experience is with rattle can Rustoleum, which likes a light mist coat followed by a full coat about 15 minutes later, and it flows out to glossy.
What's the technique for Klass Kote? How many coats and re-coat times? HVLP or siphon gun? Air pressure? Thinner ratio? The website instructions are a little vague.

       Dust coat over everything, followed by a *minimal* flow-out coat. Thin until it sprays without orange peel on your thinner can (the universal test subject). This is usually *much more* thinner than the 10% recommended. 10% is  inconceivable to flow through any detail gun or airbrush. I would start with about 1:1:.9, and then go up from there. Put on *just enough* to cover, or just short of that (since it gets more opaque when it gasses off). The various colors are different.

   As far as I know, recoat time is from 0 to infinity, this is not hardware store stuff, this is glue mixed with pigment. If you wait more than about a week, I would suggest that you at least try to rough it up - but by that time it will be like sanding glass. It takes a good 12-24 hours to get really solid  - you can gently move it about 12 hours in normal conditions, less in hot conditions. The reaction rate appears to be nearly 0 below maybe 55 degrees.

     Please also read the previous posts on the same topic, they tell you more-or-less everything I know about it. Particularly pay attention to the gun cleaning part of it, unless you have a "buy one, get one free" card from Iwata.

     Brett

p.s. like this one:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/paint-and-finishing/klass-kote-airbrush-notes/msg586487/?topicseen#msg586487
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 10:11:31 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2021, 08:51:52 PM »
Has anyone tried mixing House of Kolor Kandy Koncentrate in Klass Kote clear?

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2021, 10:14:58 PM »
Has anyone tried mixing House of Kolor Kandy Koncentrate in Klass Kote clear?

    I don't know anyone who has done that. If you are going to do something like that, just use the regular base coat color n(House of Kolor or whatever) , and then use polyurethane over it.

     I am not an adventurer when it comes to mixing things, having had *endless* problems in the past with paint that never cured. Getting fuelproof paint was the bane of my early modeling career.

      Brett

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2021, 08:53:41 AM »
What's the current source for Klass Kote.  They didn't participate in Toledo this year.  Can they really send this stuff through the mail.

I just brush on Klass Kote as a fuel-proofer.  I don't dare spray epoxy.
Paul Smith

Offline George Truett

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2021, 09:39:34 AM »
Buy it directly from Klasskote:  https://www.klasskote.com/paint_store  It can ship with any of the regular shippers, just goes ground.  It sprays extremely well and there are a lot of threads out there describing how to do it.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2021, 05:31:19 PM »
Déjà vu.

And it never ends.  ;D

Why is this?
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2021, 07:05:29 PM »
Déjà vu.

And it never ends.  ;D

Why is this?


    I don't know - people keep begging you to leave, or at least shut up when you have nothing to contribute, but here you are again.

    Brett

Offline George Truett

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2021, 07:05:52 PM »
Personally, I always spray at least one and usually 2 coats of White Klasskote primer over my filled surface whether I used silkspan and dope or glass cloth and epoxy.  The question of if it is better than auto basecoat is a little harder to answer.  All Klasskote is fuelproof (all products are catalyzed).  If you apply your automotive basecoat without hardener, depending on your clearcoat for fuel protection, there is a chance of rubbing through the clear in places allowing fuel to seep into the unprotected color.  I have seen it happen on occasion and it can make a mess but it is fairly rare.  From most literature, Epoxy paint is safer from a health standpoint than most automotive paints.  I still recommend using the best mask and PPE you can get.  On the plus side, automotive paints are available in most any color you can imagine just about any place in the country.  If you can find a body shop like I did, they will give you excess color matched basecoat or sell it for a very low price.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2021, 07:09:34 PM »
That's a fine treatise on the idiosyncrasies of applying Klass Kote but, do you do anything  other than the usual dope and filler before the color coat?

Is there any advantage over automotive base coat?

    I use nitrate dope to apply the carbon mat, sand it smooth, and use the primer as the filler. I do not use conventional fillercoat.

     I am not sure it is a lot better than automotive base coat colors. I have a really bad set of experiences using non-fuel-proof materials, since I couldn't get any for a long time, so I prefer to use something that will not curdle up on me when I get fuel on it, or, in the case of automotive base coat, when it gets a chip in the clear and fuel gets in.

      Brett

   

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2021, 08:39:24 AM »
    I use nitrate dope to apply the carbon mat, sand it smooth, and use the primer as the filler. I do not use conventional fillercoat.

     I am not sure it is a lot better than automotive base coat colors. I have a really bad set of experiences using non-fuel-proof materials, since I couldn't get any for a long time, so I prefer to use something that will not curdle up on me when I get fuel on it, or, in the case of automotive base coat, when it gets a chip in the clear and fuel gets in.

      Brett

This is where you and I are extremely different.

I really do have an extensive background using paint and finishing products over my lifetime.

I ACTUALLY DID IT FOR A LIVING
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2021, 09:43:43 AM »
        This is where your lack reading comprehension skills comes to the fore front. You obviously have not read everything as usual. The question by the OP was about Klass Kote and it's application. I would wager that you have never heard of or even seen this product, so you really don't have anything to offer on it's application and use. So please BUG OUT!! Some of us would like to enjoy this and maybe learn a thing or two.

   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
 

I really wish you knew more about finishing and building. You do have little hands on experience in these areas.

Funny you mention a thread going into a different direction? You're a master at this.

It just so happens I've sprayed a good deal of Epoxy paints over the years. Many many years.

Managers of boat marinas paid me quit well for the work I did using many mediums to repair, fix, detail and paint all kinds of boats made of resins.

I prefer to stay away from Epoxy paint for a good number of reasons. However, as many did, well, we know you didn't, we all used the K&B Epoxy paint on our models, which did get the job done. You know I've mentioned my experience using K&B products many times.

I believe this one was painted in the late 70's or early 80's. Interesting thing, is the finish is still as good as gold. Epoxies do hold up. It's on ebay even after all these years.

No one likes someone who goes against the grain of the "experts."

Next troll please or next condescending remarks.





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Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2021, 10:37:07 AM »
Mike,
Having just finished 2 plane with klasskote and painting a 3rd with it. This stuff is user friendly, shots very good. Both in a HVLP gun and air brush. It seems a little expensive, however you really do not use much, a little goes a long way.
To answer your question based on my experience with the product
For coverage, a little color dependent, for example 3 coats for white and 2 coats for blue. I shot red over white and 2 coats covered which I was a little surprised at.
Re coat time – seems to be what Brett said. I had it sitting a few days before I put the clear on after the colors and even a few days between color and seems to have no issues.
Equipment- HVLP gun @ 20 to 25 psi
Air brush 20 psi
What Brett said about cleaning equipment! I did donate one gun (harbor Freight 10 dollar gun)
Ratio – followed klasskote which is 1 to 1 to 1

Only downside is time to dry!
Hope that helps
Joe

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2021, 11:44:29 AM »
Thought this might be of interest to anyone deciding on which paint to use on their model airplane. There's many more.

The WWW, "World Wide Web" is there, and loaded with information, research is a great thing.

https://www.myperfectcolor.com/Epoxy-Paint-or-Urethane-Paint-Which-is-Better/34194.htm
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Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2021, 12:14:27 PM »
Gentlemen, before this thread further evolves into an exchange of pleasantries as is becoming customary here, I would like to thank everyone for their replies, both on the thread and via PM, and the valuable info with links and pictures.  It seems at this point I know enough to try a small amount and see how it goes.  I should have specified that my case is a little different: the enamel (base color) will be sprayed in the negative/female mold over a PVA release coat, followed 24 hrs (?) later by a fiberglass+foam layup and vacuum.  Color trim will be applied once the parts come out of the mold.  I was under the impression that the color enamel (with gloss hardener) will flow out well enough that clear should not be needed.  The planes will be electric, so fuel resistance is not needed. Instead, the valuable attribute was cure time - 24 hours (compared to Rustoleum at .. weeks? months?).  No primer will be used.  The surface quality will be determined by the PVA layer; any dust, drips, etc do not matter as the paint layer is "inside out".
At this point, there is one way to find out, and that is to try.  Pictures and full report will follow when the planes are built and flying.

Offline George Truett

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2021, 12:48:46 PM »
Mike,  I have painted quite a few planes in the mold.  You can spray over PVA (and many have) but I found it fragile and started using a couple of products that I found easier.  At first, all of my molds were treated with Frekote, I like 700 and 770 in the spray cans.  When you spray over Frekote, you have to start with a very light mist coat and then build up, otherwise paint just balls up.  Later on I found out about Dolphin Wax, sold by Harold Sattler of H&M Racing in Canada.  Dolphin wax is easier to spray over than Frekote but releases well.  Per Harold's advice, the best thing to spray over Dolphin wax was single stage automotive paint (not basecoat/clearcoat).  I never got into the high end multiple color in the mold finishes, just a single color usually being white, still a huge time saver when it comes to finishing.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2021, 01:49:37 PM »
Mike,

With this said, do you know who Traian is. He goes by TDM in the Forum.

He's a NATs contender with a model he built in the mold. I've seen his model and his work.

He's been at it a long long time.

He would be a great person to contact.

You may have seen his work.
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Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2021, 03:04:29 PM »
Charles - yes, I know Dorin personally, and he has helped me with advice (although I am not copying either his design or his process).

George - I don't have hands-on experience with Frekote 700/770, but Dorin's comment was "it releases well, don't expect to spray paint over it".  Haven't heard of Dolphin Wax.  Sounds like a good product, but at this point I'm running out of time to experiment with new release products.  Agreed, PVA is fragile, but that's what I've used so far and it works for us.

Offline George Truett

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2021, 04:36:40 PM »
Mike,  When we first started making kits I was using Partall wax coated with PVA.  A friend told me about Frekote and gave me a sample can, I was done with PVA after that.  At times I was making a fuse every evening after work, that's just not possible with the prep for wax and PVA.  You can spray paint over Frekote but like I said earlier, you have to spray a mist coat or 2 and let it dry, any initial heavy coats will just bead up.  It is also pretty much impossible to tape on Frekote treated molds.  I don't know where you are, we're down in South Georgia and I could let you try Dolphin Wax if you're anywhere near.  If you're just making low numbers for your own use, probably better to stick with what you're comfortable with.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2021, 05:55:40 PM »
Gentlemen, before this thread further evolves into an exchange of pleasantries as is becoming customary here, I would like to thank everyone for their replies, both on the thread and via PM, and the valuable info with links and pictures.  It seems at this point I know enough to try a small amount and see how it goes.  I should have specified that my case is a little different: the enamel (base color) will be sprayed in the negative/female mold over a PVA release coat, followed 24 hrs (?) later by a fiberglass+foam layup and vacuum.  Color trim will be applied once the parts come out of the mold.  I was under the impression that the color enamel (with gloss hardener) will flow out well enough that clear should not be needed.  The planes will be electric, so fuel resistance is not needed. Instead, the valuable attribute was cure time - 24 hours (compared to Rustoleum at .. weeks? months?).  No primer will be used.  The surface quality will be determined by the PVA layer; any dust, drips, etc do not matter as the paint layer is "inside out".
At this point, there is one way to find out, and that is to try.  Pictures and full report will follow when the planes are built and flying.

     It has been a while since I have read anything from their website, but the Klass Kote products can be sprayed and used as they are from the container, can't they? I think they call their catalyst a cross linker? Or am I confusing my products? And there are various levels to which you can add the cross linker?  Since the end result will be for an electric model, no real need for fuel proofing, you can adjust for the surface that you need for the next step? And relieves the issue of cleaning you spray equipment while still have a small lever of fuel resistance?

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Offline George Truett

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2021, 06:16:06 PM »
Dan, I think you have confused Klasskote with something else, possibly one of the newer waterborne systems.  Klasskote is a true Epoxy system, part A (color, clear, or Primer) to be mixed only with an equal amount of part B (catalyst).  To mix any other ratio will likely result in never hardening.  The only latitude is amount of reducer, like the others have stated, I always reduce with another equal part (1:1:1).

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2021, 04:28:33 PM »
I've used Frekote a bunch for molding epoxy composites.  One caution is not to finish a mold with dope, then put Frekote on the doped surface.  The mold will stick to the composite part.
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Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2021, 01:33:08 PM »
Okay, it seems these are refer to models with no open bays. What about a traditional build. How does this sound. Nitrate on bare wood. Silkspan, polyspan, docspan, silk, etc. Then, can I still use the zpoxy to prep the fabric, or use klasscote primer?  Then procede  as indicated?

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2021, 02:09:43 PM »
Okay, it seems these are refer to models with no open bays. What about a traditional build. How does this sound. Nitrate on bare wood. Silkspan, polyspan, docspan, silk, etc. Then, can I still use the zpoxy to prep the fabric, or use klasscote primer?  Then procede  as indicated?

David,

IMHO, you don't need Nitrate for anything. Many modelers besides myself never use the stuff.

Silk, 11 grams more per sq. yd. but silk fills easier. Well, I find it does. Z Poxy?

I never search on line about paint products, but here goes...

Epoxy Paint or Urethane Paint? Which is Better?



https://www.myperfectcolor.com/Epoxy-Paint-or-Urethane-Paint-Which-is-Better/34194.htm



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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2021, 08:28:46 PM »
Okay, it seems these are refer to models with no open bays. What about a traditional build. How does this sound. Nitrate on bare wood. Silkspan, polyspan, docspan, silk, etc. Then, can I still use the zpoxy to prep the fabric, or use klasscote primer?  Then procede  as indicated?

    No, you need a sealer for the fabric, and epoxy (glue) is not appropriate. I prefer non-taughtening nitrate dope (SIG), because it gasses off much faster than butyrate, and doesn't have any plasticizer so the adhesion is excellent. Seal it up until it is nice and shiny, then primer over that.

   I would only consider polyspan at this point, it is very durable and requires far less sealing than silk. Silkspan is in-between as far as sealing goes but far more fragile, exam tissue is probably just not recommended for a variety of reasons.

   The problem with this is that the primer will require extensive sanding, and while it sands really well, there is always a risk of going through and getting fuzzies, or all the way through and leaving a hole, is pretty high. People do it, but you need to be very careful. Whether it is worse that typical dope fillercoat (corn starch or zinc stearate/clear dope) on silkspan, hard to say. If I was going to do it, I would probably have to consider dope colors with urethane clear.

  To be honest, I would, just myself, avoid open-bay construction, and at the end, the finished weight seems to be about the same as fully sheeted or sheeted foam - because while the structure might be lighter, it also requires much more sealing in the open bays. Sheeted (either way) also has much more reliable bending properties and is nearly unaffected by humidity or temperature.


    Brett

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2021, 09:04:53 PM »
Okay, thanks. This is an Ibeam biplane I've had lying around for a while--hopefully get to VSC again someday. Finally decided to work on my painting technique with it so I built it. I'll keep in mind the solid surfaces and epoxy paint for my next competition stunt project.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2021, 07:48:58 PM »
It's been decades since I sprayed epoxy paint...started with HobbyPoxy, then Woolsey boat paint, then K&B SuperPoxy...no Klass Kote (yet). My one tip is to mix the epoxy paint well ahead of time...1/2 hour to even 24 hours, then thin and spray. This makes it "dry" to the touch much faster, cutting down on dust problems.

There was a question about using HOK in epoxy, which is interesting to me. My only attempt at something similar was Rit dye in clear epoxy. Exactly like dying clear dope, I mixed the dye in the thinner, filtered out the crystals and then mixed the dyed thinner into the clear epoxy. I was shocked to find out that the dye leeched out of the epoxy and made a he!! of a mess when hands were covered with raw 65% nitro speed fuel.  HB~> Steve
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Offline Mike Quinn

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2021, 03:08:58 PM »
Hi

Does anyone have a position on nozzle sizes on HVLP guns re spraying KlassKote colours an clear.

My gun is 0.8mm but was wondering if anyone would recommmend a 1+mm nozzle size or if it makes any difference for our applications?

Sill learning!

Cheers


MIKE

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2021, 12:55:47 AM »
Steve,

I have also found that Sharpie marker will bleed thru epoxy adhesives. Not sure how the chemistry of that works....

Dave

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Klass Kote application technique
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2021, 08:57:48 AM »
Steve,

I have also found that Sharpie marker will bleed thru epoxy adhesives. Not sure how the chemistry of that works....

Dave

   
     Sharpie will bleed through other clear coat applications also. I has several notable signatures on the wing of my Primary Force ARF. It was decided to put a dusting light coat of Top Flite Crystal Clear over then to seal and protect them. Over time, like though the following winter, whenever I went into the garage I would smell a chemical odor, but I had not been doing any painting. The P-Force was hanging on a rack behind another model and I could not see it. The next time I grabbed the model to fly it, the area where the signatures were had turned black! I believe that my son Sen had a similar experience with spraying clear over the signatures of the Shell Aero Squadron Team on his Hutchinson T-6 that is finished in their colors. Knowing this, when I had Hazel Sig sign my P-Force (after it had a recover job) at her 95th birthday party, I just put some clear tape over the signature.
 
    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)


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