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Author Topic: Need advise please.  (Read 2414 times)

Offline Jim Morris

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Need advise please.
« on: October 05, 2021, 05:23:02 PM »
I know this has been brought up time and time, sorry bout that, but Im looking for another alternative to finishing this new build. The past was iron on monokote or aultracoat on wings with silkspan covered fuselage and solid tail surfaces, then painted with Lustrekote. Now that Lustrekote is no longer available I am going with this. Please let me know if this will be good. I want simple as possible. Covering foam sheeted wings with carbon fiber veil, put on with nitrate dope. All other parts covered with carbon fiber veil (solid pieces) and nitrate dope. Primed then painted with Duplicolor rattle can. Then clear coated with whatever would work. I dont own a spray gun but can get one. I HATE cleaning up after spraying with a gun but... I already got the veil.

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2021, 07:16:10 PM »
Jim,
I assume you are using IC for this model. For this since you are in primer you could use SIG or Brodak dope and then top coat of KBS Spray Max 2K High Gloss Finish Clear Coat (death paint). This is one option, that would be one of the lightest. To spray you could us the Preval Sprayer from Home Depot (ACE, Lowe's etc.), they are about $8. They are good for large area spraying and work like a rattle can. When done - throw out.

Second option is base coat waterbase acrylic like Montana Color ( https://www.montanacolors.com/en/spray/graffiti-water-based/) in rattle can, then clear coat with the KBS 2K. It is usually available in art supply stores as it comes in arts pallet colors, lots to chose from (Liquitex is the same type of waterbased acrylic use either).

Third option is Duplicolor rattle can paint then clearcoat with KBS 2K. This one is likely the heaviest.

Best,     DennisT
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 06:52:53 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Jim Morris

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2021, 03:53:51 PM »
Jim,
I assume you are using IC for this model. For this since you are in primer you could use SIG or Brodak dope and then top coat of KBS Spray Max 2K High Gloss Finish Clear Coat (death paint). This is one option, that would be one of the lightest. To spray you could us the Preval Sprayer from Home Depot (ACE, Lowe's etc.), they are about $8. They are good for large area spraying and work like a rattle can. When done - throw out.

Second option is base coat waterbase acrylic like Montana Color ( https://www.montanacolors.com/en/spray/graffiti-water-based/) in rattle can, then clear coat with the KBS 2K.

Third option is Duplicolor rattle can paint then clearcoat with KBS 2K. This one is likely the heaviest.

Best,     DennisT
Thank you! I am not in primer yet or even started covering. Couple questions, why called (death paint)? and what primer?

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2021, 04:53:20 PM »
Death paint as they say is any two part epoxy paint and is carcinogenic to the lungs.

   "Death Paint" was originally coined by Windy to refer to Imron urethane clear, but any 2-part urethane with isocyanates  is more-or-less the same thing - most if not all 2-part urethanes. It is one of the few things we use that I take extensive precautions about.

    Epoxy does not contain isocyanates and is far less dangerous, although it is still a bad idea to breath it. Dope is no safer.

      Brett

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2021, 07:40:50 PM »
The primer I have recently used is Harbor Freight "Iron Armor Sandable Primer" gray, $5.99 in store in rattle can. Worked very good over silkspan/dope covered fuse and planked areas.

Best,  DennisT

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2021, 06:15:18 AM »
   "Death Paint" was originally coined by Windy to refer to Imron urethane clear, but any 2-part urethane with isocyanates  is more-or-less the same thing - most if not all 2-part urethanes. It is one of the few things we use that I take extensive precautions about.

    Epoxy does not contain isocyanates and is far less dangerous, although it is still a bad idea to breath it. Dope is no safer.

      Brett

It is "Death Paint" and it should never be sprayed without a proper 3M Respirator Mask.

Never spray without a 3M Respirator Mask and there's many to choose from.

I don't remember which mask I've used, but this information it out there. Modelers can provide recommendations.

Charles
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2021, 02:08:57 PM »
It is "Death Paint" and it should never be sprayed without a proper 3M Respirator Mask.

    None of these things should be sprayed without a proper mask, "death paint" or otherwise. "Death Paint" was coined to refer to paints containing isocyanates, which are two-part urethanes -  not epoxy or not dope. The "cyan" part being related to/containing cyanide, a powerful poison.

    That doesn't mean epoxy or dope are "safe". In fact, lots of people think, somehow, that dope is "safe" compared to epoxy, it is arguably just about as dangerous, it's just that dope was common in the years before product safety was a significant concern. If it were legal to spray lacquer-based products in an industrial setting, you would be required to use exactly the same precautions with that as with an epoxy. The *effects* and type of danger are different, but not better or worse.

   So aside from being wrong on the facts, jumping to a conclusion, and missing the point, good post.

     Brett

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2021, 06:08:08 AM »
I have real good luck with Dupli-Color engine paints and the 2K Max clear. Epoxy clear will work just as well. Just be sure the clear and colors are compatible. Clear dope gives me fits with the humidity here.
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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2021, 06:29:45 AM »
What epoxy clear is water clear? Most have a slight orange ting to them so over white would change the appearance.

Best,  DennisT

Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2021, 03:30:04 PM »
Jim,
I’m sure you had lots of suggestions on this,  but here is another option for you to consider,  when the wings is ready for a final sanding, sand it lightly with 320 grit sand paper the switch to 400 wet or dry (use dry) and clean and vaccine the dust from the wing.  Apply one brushed coat of glass coat epoxy paint (1-1-1 equal parts) to each wing top & bottom, wipe off the excessive paint with paper towels.  By wiping off the epoxy paint, it forces the paint into the wood grain, then allow to cure for 24 hours, then repete the same procedure for the other wing.  Again, lightly sand the wing panels smooth and vacuumed off the dust.  Go easy on this step and don’t apply too much pressure with the sanding block, what you want to do is fill the wood grain with the epoxy paint.

Apply a coat of nitrate dope (thinned 50/50) and block sand removing the high spots.  Replete this step for a total five coats lightly sanded between each coat of Nitrate dope.  Now apply the CF Matt with nitrate dope thinned 30% dope 70% thinner, the dope and thinner will soften to dope under the CF Matt which can be rubbed in place with your finger.  Now give the CF Matt two coats of nitrate dope and allow to dry.  Only after the matt is fully dried, lightly sand the matt with 320 grit sandpaper.  At this time you can hold the wing next to a light and look for imperfections or un filled weave of the matt.  Apply another coat of 50/50 nitrate dope to the needed areas and sand off.

What you are trying to do is build up the surface to even out the high spots and fill in the low spots by making sure your sanding nothing but the nitrate dope.  Now when you satisfied, switch to your primer and colored paint.  In my opinion there is no such thing as an quick & easy finish, it takes at least as long as it did to build the model, depending on how good a finish you want requires work and careful application to get there.  Don’t rush the finish take your time, this will provide a well prepped surface to add your colors. & trim.  I’ve used this many times before using the same prep for Butyrate Dope, epoxy paints, car paints.

Good Luck,
Mikey


 

Online Dan Berry

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2021, 06:35:02 PM »
You can do what you propose and topcoat with KlassKote epoxy clear.  I am currently flying. Profile Vector40 done in DupliColor and KlassKote.  You can get a touch up gun from Harbor Freight. On sale they are about 12-15 bucks.  If you consider your time worth ten bucks an hour it is literally not worth your time to clean up that gun.

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2021, 07:15:01 PM »
I dont own a spray gun but can get one. I HATE cleaning up after spraying with a gun but... I already got the veil.

 Way back when, I screwed around with Lustrekote and many other similar products, always compromising the final finish. I did so for quite a while, I probably should have owned stock in Lustrekote, I bought a LOT of it.
 During this time I did all my build and prep work brushing butyrate dope but then would switch to Lustrekote etc. for the final colors and finish. This was mainly because like you say, I though it was easier and I didn't want to deal with cleaning spray guns etc. I knew I was capable of better finishes, it was the products I was using that was holding me back.
 
 Finally at some point I got tired of the marginal finish results with these products. Also, all the related rattle can headaches like clogged spray nozzles and random puking of globs of paint toward the end of the can etc, etc. Another thing was the very limited color choice options.

  One day I put on my big-boy pants, drove to Sears, and invested in a new Craftsman 33 gallon upright compressor. Next stop was Harbor Freight for a water trap, a couple hoses, and three $9.00 automotive detail guns that someone had described on the forum. You wouldn't need as big a compressor as I have, that's just what I chose so it wouldn't be running constantly during painting sessions.
 
 I use two of the spray guns for color work and the third gun for clear only, to never have to worry about color accidentally getting in the clear. I spray nothing but butyrate dope, preferring Randolph or Brodak. I also have another small diameter hose that's set up for using with my small model airbrush, works perfectly for smaller detail painting.
 
 From my very first session of painting with the new spray setup I was hooked. I wished I'd  not been so ignorant and would've made the change years earlier. Can't say enough about that, I immediately felt I'd wasted time with years of headache. Once you suss your mix/spray/cleanup routine, and it doesn't take long, it's actually a lot less hassle then fudging with all the other makeshift products. Cleanup is not half the issue I'd imagined, just takes a couple minutes, really. Finishes are no comparison, sooo much nicer.

 I say bite the bullet and step up your program, you won't regret it.  y1
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Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2021, 07:19:46 PM »
You can do what you propose and topcoat with KlassKote epoxy clear.  I am currently flying. Profile Vector40 done in DupliColor and KlassKote.  You can get a touch up gun from Harbor Freight. On sale they are about 12-15 bucks.  If you consider your time worth ten bucks an hour it is literally not worth your time to clean up that gun.

Dan,
Using the KlassKote Clear epoxy it won’t be crystal clear, it will have a very slight amber tint to it, if you want something that crystal clear you may want to try 2K Max clear paint, it comes in a sprat can, so just pitch it when you done.  Cleaning a spray gun is a piece of cake so I don’t know what people are talking about.  I’ve had the same touch up gun for 30 years and it’s painted many projects from models to full scale aircraft.  Never a problem and it worked perfectly every time.  Send us a photo when your finished.

Later,
Mikey 

Online Dan Berry

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2021, 09:08:25 PM »
Dan,
Using the KlassKote Clear epoxy it won’t be crystal clear, it will have a very slight amber tint to it, if you want something that crystal clear you may want to try 2K Max clear paint, it comes in a sprat can, so just pitch it when you done.  Cleaning a spray gun is a piece of cake so I don’t know what people are talking about.  I’ve had the same touch up gun for 30 years and it’s painted many projects from models to full scale aircraft.  Never a problem and it worked perfectly every time.  Send us a photo when your finished.

Later,
Mikey

Correct. The KK is amber tint. It won’t be wonderful over hospital white.  I used something called Wimbledon White and didn’t notice a color change.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2021, 10:31:53 PM »
You can do what you propose and topcoat with KlassKote epoxy clear.  I am currently flying. Profile Vector40 done in DupliColor and KlassKote.  You can get a touch up gun from Harbor Freight. On sale they are about 12-15 bucks.  If you consider your time worth ten bucks an hour it is literally not worth your time to clean up that gun.

    What we have used in the past is the 3-part automotive urethane that the inestimable PTG recommended. That's what Jim and I have been using. Klass-Kote also sells a clear urethane - I have some but haven't used it. It is intended to address the yellowing problem, it is not epoxy.

     The epoxy definitely yellows on exposure to light - there's a light spot on my paint where I removed some tail weight.

       Brett

Online doug coursey

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2021, 06:18:37 AM »
    What we have used in the past is the 3-part automotive urethane that the inestimable PTG recommended. That's what Jim and I have been using. Klass-Kote also sells a clear urethane - I have some but haven't used it. It is intended to address the yellowing problem, it is not epoxy.

     The epoxy definitely yellows on exposure to light - there's a light spot on my paint where I removed some tail weight.

       Brett
 

I am going with brodak dope for the whole finnish. i have the butarate clear for covering and filling...i bought some of the crystal clear for the final clear coats but i hear it turns yellow and doesnt stay clear when fuel gets on it. should i just use the regular clear for final coats.  Doug
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2021, 07:34:54 AM »
 

I am going with brodak dope for the whole finnish. i have the butarate clear for covering and filling...i bought some of the crystal clear for the final clear coats but i hear it turns yellow and doesnt stay clear when fuel gets on it. should i just use the regular clear for final coats.  Doug

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2021, 10:06:22 AM »
 

I am going with brodak dope for the whole finnish. i have the butarate clear for covering and filling...i bought some of the crystal clear for the final clear coats but i hear it turns yellow and doesnt stay clear when fuel gets on it. should i just use the regular clear for final coats.  Doug

    I am not sure what the difference is between the crystal clear and regular clear, but I would not count on any of it staying intact if expose to any significant amount of raw fuel. It just won't hold up, and some batches appear to be much worse about it than others. Exhaust it handles OK, raw fuel, not a chance. That's why most people switched away from it.

    If you go ahead, just be extremely careful and wipe it up as soon as you get the slightest drip. And polish out the bad spots right before appearance judging.

    Brett

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2021, 11:05:09 AM »
 

 ...i bought some of the crystal clear for the final clear coats but i hear it turns yellow and doesnt stay clear when fuel gets on it. should i just use the regular clear for final coats.  Doug

 A big Crystal Clear issue that people were having is that there were brand "new" cans of it that when initially opened were the found to be the color of Aunt Jemima syrup, or even darker. I had three cans in a row that way about 2-3 years ago. One was dark like molasses, and so thick it would barely pour into the trash. I haven't heard if the issue was ever resolved.
 
 As far as fuel, yeah, it doesn't care much for raw fuel. I've never had the clear actually come off but have seen spots/stains from raw fuel spatter. In my case its been minor but it is definitely an issue. It also rubbed out pretty easily.

 The regular clear works great. It does have a very slight yellow tinge to it when compared directly to the Crystal Clear, mainly visible over bright white of course. It will also get a bit more yellow over time, like years. Putting it over other colors I would consider it a non-issue.

 If your not an elite front row contender you've really got no worries, build, paint, fly, have fun!
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2021, 01:45:12 PM »
 

I am going with brodak dope for the whole finnish. i have the butarate clear for covering and filling...i bought some of the crystal clear for the final clear coats but i hear it turns yellow and doesnt stay clear when fuel gets on it. should i just use the regular clear for final coats.  Doug

   If you have some experience working with dope, continue as you want to but heed the warnings about the Chrystal Clear, unless you do a pest panel first. Whenever you get satisfied and finish, put a good coat of wax on the nose area pf the model and be careful fueling. The best alternative is get some of the two part clears to spray on the nose area. No need to do the whole model, just do the nose and maybe the leading edges and root fillets of the wing. Then follow that up with some good waxing. There are several good spray ready two part automotive clears that a lot of guys on here use in just that manor. The old DuPont Nason system is available by another name, (Axalta  ??) and in small quantities like quarts  and a lot of guys like it because it's pretty used friendly. Check out a local auto paint supply store and tell them what you are doing and what has been recommended by people here THAT FLY THEIR MODELS and see what they have to offer.
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Online doug coursey

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2021, 06:37:08 PM »
i painted helicopter canopies with the base coat clear coat automotive paint (sikkens) because it with take 30% nitro. i painted an rc hydro with dope and used automotive  2 part clear on it and the clear peeled off...i have been watching Wendys videos on painting with all brodak dope and he doesnt have any problems,he doesnt say if he uses the crystal clear or the regular clear so thats why im asking...I just recieved mine and it looks real clear.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 07:02:31 PM by doug coursey »
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Online doug coursey

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2021, 07:06:14 PM »
    I am not sure what the difference is between the crystal clear and regular clear, but I would not count on any of it staying intact if expose to any significant amount of raw fuel. It just won't hold up, and some batches appear to be much worse about it than others. Exhaust it handles OK, raw fuel, not a chance. That's why most people switched away from it.

    If you go ahead, just be extremely careful and wipe it up as soon as you get the slightest drip. And polish out the bad spots right before appearance judging.

    Brett 




Brodak web site says it has no tint
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2021, 07:38:07 PM »
i painted helicopter canopies with the base coat clear coat automotive paint (sikkens) because it with take 30% nitro. i painted an rc hydro with dope and used automotive  2 part clear on it and the clear peeled off...i have been watching Wendys videos on painting with all brodak dope and he doesnt have any problems,he doesnt say if he uses the crystal clear or the regular clear so thats why im asking...I just recieved mine and it looks real clear.

     Well, it sounds like you are pretty well set for spraying experience. Keep in mind that the Windy videos are pretty old but the techniques still apply. Lots of product has gone through Brodak since then, and some testing may help. Maybe put your results here also. If you enjoy Windy's videos, Kevin King is working on uploading more all the time, and we have a treasure trove more to get converted yet. Stay tuned!

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Online doug coursey

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2021, 08:06:31 AM »
     Well, it sounds like you are pretty well set for spraying experience. Keep in mind that the Windy videos are pretty old but the techniques still apply. Lots of product has gone through Brodak since then, and some testing may help. Maybe put your results here also. If you enjoy Windy's videos, Kevin King is working on uploading more all the time, and we have a treasure trove more to get converted yet. Stay tuned!

    Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

dont know why they would tint the butyrate dope except to be able to see it better. im going to try the crystal clear on a ringmaster first. it shoildnt be a problem with 5 or 10% nitro..
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Need advise please.
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2021, 08:32:14 AM »
dont know why they would tint the butyrate dope except to be able to see it better. im going to try the crystal clear on a ringmaster first. it shoildnt be a problem with 5 or 10% nitro..

The Brodak Crystal Clear does not like 10% nitro.  10% will leave spots wherever it touches the Crystal Clear finish.

Keith


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