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Author Topic: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?  (Read 2207 times)

Offline Mike Alimov

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Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« on: March 03, 2020, 02:42:04 PM »
I have some experience Monokot-ing built up wings and structures, but never had to do a sheeted foam wing.  Questions:
1) Is it possible at all?  My concern being that the heat intended to shrink the film would melt the foam under the balsa skins.
2) If possible, what is the procedure? Specifically, how do you provide for hot air escape?  Normally I seal all the way around the edges before shrinking; however in a built-up structure there are plenty of openings for hot gas escape. 

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2020, 07:57:32 PM »
I have some experience Monokot-ing built up wings and structures, but never had to do a sheeted foam wing.  Questions:
1) Is it possible at all?  My concern being that the heat intended to shrink the film would melt the foam under the balsa skins.

Yes.


2) If possible, what is the procedure? Specifically, how do you provide for hot air escape?  Normally I seal all the way around the edges before shrinking; however in a built-up structure there are plenty of openings for hot gas escape.

Attach at LE and TE, pulling on the diagonal to put on as much tension as you can to stretch it, as you work your way from root to tip. Do not seal the flat surfaces at the root or tip, aside from maybe a tiny tack at about half chord at the root, just to give you something to pull against. When tacked at the LE and TE, go make solid, hot, bond to the LE and TE all the way, nice and solid, and on the bottom, "bury" the edge until the color comes out. There should be no wrinkles, it should already look very good.

   Then take a heat gun and shrink it everywhere. Let it cool all the way down - this removes almost all the trapped air that you can. Then, go back over it with a wadded-up T-shirt or some other cotton cloth that is *soft*, smooth,  and thick. Heat again with the heat gun, root to tip, and while it's still hot and the adhesive is still hot, lightly rub it down, working from root to tip in about 3" sections. This sticks it down to the wood, and also presses out as much of the air as you can possibly remove. Done correctly, you can see just a slight texture of wood grain, because it is stuck down everywhere. Then, seal the root and the top. NEVER, EVER touch it in the middle of the field with something hard like an iron, or your finger, when it is hot, because it will leave a very obvious mark. I have never managed to use a "sock" on an iron in the middle of the field, it *always* leaves marks where it is stuck down harder in some places than others

     Done like this with *fresh* stretchy monokote and kept out of a hot car, it will not wrinkle up later. It will be good enough to get 14-15-16 points at the NATs, if you do everything else right, too.

  I would also highly recommend "Tom's Techniques" which was one of the Harry Higley books. It may not agree with above for sheeted surfaces, but I recall not being able to use the "Tom's Techniques" exactly as described in this regard.

    Brett


Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2020, 06:47:17 PM »
What Brett said, Plus make sure you have removed any trace of dust (balsa or otherwise) removed from the surface.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2020, 07:07:31 PM »
Any special prep of the wood?  Sanding?  What grit?
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2020, 10:46:55 PM »
Any special prep of the wood?  Sanding?  What grit?

  Sand up to 400. Then vacuum the wood completely clean, and don't to anything that might knock dust on it, because it *will* show.

     Brett

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2020, 06:05:20 AM »
i have a slightly different method for monokoting. this F3a plane have wings and stab fully sheeted foam surfaces and all monokote covering.
sand everything with 500 grit sandpaper, then use high pressure air spray over the surface to clean up the balsa grain. this will raise some "hair" from the wood, i run my hand over the entire surface to get rid of the raised spots. do not sand again.
I seal the edges and let a small air escape unsealed like 1" segment and use the heat gun. when air is off, i end sealing and let the covering "floating" over the wood, never seal over the sheeted surface to void showing the grain or wood beneath. looks like a metal surface highly polished. Pros: looks like a perfect paint job. cons: may develop some slack but you always can stretch back with heat gun.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2020, 07:32:44 AM »
There was a time when this stuff first came out, it was suggested you make "thousands" of pin holes everywhere on the sheeted balsa.

Someone even produced a tool for this. Possibly Harry Higley.

Harry Higley had a series of "know all do all" books for the benefit of educating modelers with all kinds of building tasks.

I had a few but passed them on to others.
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Online jerry v

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2020, 09:30:41 AM »
Mike,
I covered non protected blue foam wing with Monocote using minimal heat. Work from center to tips and edges. Low heat did not make any air bubbles. I covered with Monocote the black foamboard wing (paper covered foam) in the same way. If seal TE and LE overlapping top and bottom covering as was mentioned earlier, then wing will look smoother. But covering will not strengthen the structure. Balsa sheeted foam wing preparation- sand with 400-600 grit, blow with compressed air, wipe with tackle cloth. Any glue joints, any saturations with superglue or reinforcement with fiberglass will be highlighted after Monocote or ultracote covering.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2020, 10:38:25 AM »
There was a time when this stuff first came out, it was suggested you make "thousands" of pin holes everywhere on the sheeted balsa.

      My strong recommendation is to NOT do this. Every single hole will show, if the covering is otherwise properly applied.

     As above - do NOT try to work from the middle out, do NOT try to put pinholes, do NOT try to seal the surface with something. Do as suggested above, use *fresh* covering, and work the air out with soft cloth and a heat gun.

   The Harry Higley book you want for iron-on covering would probably be "Tom's Techniques", by Tom Ingram, but I can't say I had much luck with any of it, about the only thing I learned was how much effort it was to get it right, and how unforgiving heat-shrink covering is, compared to paint. You are combining all the finishing steps in one move, which could be faster, but also means even a slight mistake can be irreparable.

    Brett
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 11:10:27 AM by Brett Buck »

Online jerry v

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2020, 11:57:14 AM »
If use ultracote it can be scuffed with scotchbrite and steel wool and be painted over. Hangar 9 ARF Blue nose P-51 is covered with ultracote. Covering is painted in matte silver, added panel lines, rivets, hatches. Than the ready sheet is applied on the airframe. They even sold rolls of prepared this way ultracote separately.

Jerry
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2020, 02:45:01 PM »
I seal the edges and let a small air escape unsealed like 1" segment and use the heat gun. when air is off, i end sealing and let the covering "floating" over the wood, never seal over the sheeted surface to void showing the grain or wood beneath. looks like a metal surface highly polished. Pros: looks like a perfect paint job. cons: may develop some slack but you always can stretch back with heat gun.

   That is much like I do, except, I go back and do a second round of air-removing by very gently heating and pressing it with super-soft cloth. It looks about the same as if you do it without that step, but it's much less prone to wrinkling later.

    The flat surfaces with no Monokote edges or overlaps can look as good as the best paint jobs (and I have seen the best of both). Where they usually fall down is where the details intrude, or on fuselages. It takes *extreme care* to avoid even the slightest mistake and painting is generally much more forgiving - if you screw up paint, you can always go back and fix it.
   
    Brett

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2020, 03:55:56 PM »
It takes *extreme care* to avoid even the slightest mistake and painting is generally much more forgiving - if you screw up paint, you can always go back and fix it.
   
    Brett

Especially if you don't apply the film taught in the first place, and end up pushing a wrinkle into the film as you push with the cloth. If you pinch a little wrinkle together, it's permanent!

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2020, 05:27:02 PM »
Especially if you don't apply the film taught in the first place, and end up pushing a wrinkle into the film as you push with the cloth. If you pinch a little wrinkle together, it's permanent!

  For sure that, but even a slight touch of finger  in the middle of the wing while it is hot will stick it down differently from the rest of it, and stick out like a sore thumb forever.

    Brett

Online jerry v

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2020, 09:56:43 AM »
Mike,
Ultracote has one good feature. It’s resealable. If you don’t like result of covering with it, you just heat up the area with heat gun , peel the material, reposition it, and seal with iron again. Or peel all of the “cheap“ mono/ultracote covering and cover the wing with silkspan. 
Last year I started Monocote covering my Ringmaser parts on Oct. 4, 2019 at 4 PM. And I finished Covering, gluing tail, soldering control rod, and final assembly and settings electronics on Oct.5, 2019 at 7 AM. All it took 15 hours. With silkspan and dope it will never be that fast.
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2020, 10:10:13 AM »
Jerry, my favorite all monokote ringmaster took a few days....

Online jerry v

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2020, 10:12:45 AM »
Ringmaster’s solid balsa fuselage I covered in Monocote using low heat. Working from center to outside, no air bubbles . After all fuse was covered, I used heat gun to melt/ adhere adhesive. While area was hot ( reasonable) I used folded bounty paper towel wet with isopropyl alcohol to gently rub Monocote down to adhere to balsa and cool it in the same time. Heat can be regulated by distancing from surface.

Jerry
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Online jerry v

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2020, 10:21:40 AM »
Dane,
I was in rush to participate to fly in Syracuse Ringmaster event on Oct.5, 2019)) On the fifth flight I crashed it because I did not have enough sleep. Z@@ZZZ
Mike posted my video from pilot’s handle on Flyboys .

Jerry
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Mono/Ultracote over sheeted foam wings?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2020, 10:55:00 AM »
Dane,
I was in rush to participate to fly in Syracuse Ringmaster event on Oct.5, 2019)) On the fifth flight I crashed it because I did not have enough sleep. Z@@ZZZ

Jerry

I've done one of those every year also. Lol


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