Author Topic: Monokote versus silk finishing (Read 25029 times)

Christian Patrickson · « **on:** November 16, 2023, 02:45:44 PM »

Hi,

I am Chilean and been away from control line for many, many years..... In fact, I have been (and still am) an rc glider guy. Now, I would like to try (aerobatic) control line flying.... as soon as I have some time. I have been buying some kits (electro P40 and electro Tercel from RSM Distribution, Jetco Shark (ebay)) and am a little doubtful about the finishing method. On one side, I would really like to try the traditional dope and paint finish..... on the other side, I think I should go for the more economical Monokote finish.... particularly considering that most likely (or "surely") I will crash the model regardless of my very best efforts.

Question: Is the traditional silkspan + paint finish covering stronger and more resilient (ie. to punctures) than Monokote? Certainly Monokote is much more practical and probably "the way to go" at the beginning. However, at some point I do want to try the traditional silk and dope finish. I do have top-notch painting equipment and I do want to use it. Besides, I have the impression that painting the model allows for a much nicer finish than Monokote.

Sorry if this topic has already been raised by the other forum members….. If so, please just point me to the right thread.

Thanks!!

PS: Does anybody knows when RSM Distribution will come back? I am considering building a Thunder Gazer or Trivial Pursuit model (electro). Eric used to sell these kits and I do not know if he will coming back….. As a glider guy, I would prefer a take apart model like the Thunder Gazer.

Rgds.,

Christian Patrickson

fred cesquim · « **Reply #1 on:** November 17, 2023, 02:58:58 AM »

Hello my south american friend Christian!
you should give monokote a try for more reasons than the "economical and practical" ones.
I have been developing a f2b finish with monokote for about 10 + years and advocating the use. Most of brazilians modellers cringe when heard about using monokote until they see the results in person.
You can monokote wings and tail, paint the fuselage and trim over the monokote base and have a great looking model, as seems you have the facilities and knowleadge to do so.
The silk method although puncture resistance have a lot of drawbacks: weight a lot more, takes a lot more time to finish, it´s prone to twist wings and tends to develop cracks on the finish.
monokote it´s just a one step finish process, absolutely light, moderately puncture resistance (never happen to me) and easy to patch.
my finishing process is to apply carbon veyl with dope to the fuselage (or silkspan), color base monokote on wings and tail.
then sand the monokote with 1200 grit wet paper, 2 part primer on fuselage. Follow painting the same color base on the fuselage overlapping 1/2" over the monokote edge. Trim color applyed on the fuse and over monokote. Ink lines and 2 part clear coat.
some of my planes done that way have about 12-15 years of active flying and still look the same!
give a try, you won´t regret.
saludos desde Brazil

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #2 on:** November 17, 2023, 07:10:23 AM »

Christian,
I agree with Fred. Start with the MonoKote at least on the wing and tail. Build the wing with some extra stiffening gussets similar to your glider wings. I like to apply one coat of Balsarite for Film to the smoothly sanded wood to get solid adhesion. I also use an iron and covering glove (https://brodak.com/covering-glove.html ) to smooth and press the covering to the wood as I go. There are lots of YouTube videos on tips for film covering. One thing, once you sand the wood surface smooth and clean off the dust then go over it with a tac rag before applying the Balsarite for Film. After that dries give the whole thing another wipe down with the tac rag and apply the film.

If you want to do silk and dope there is a section in the pinned section about doing silk. I have done this also and one thing is not to do a clear finish on silk as the clear finish does not give the silk UV protection and after a few years the UV causes the silk to loose strength and rip easily. If you look on YouTube for the Using Brodak Dope series, Windy goes through all the steps. The silver block coat protests the silk from UV and also allows a smooth base for color.

Best, DennisT

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #3 on:** November 17, 2023, 09:00:48 AM »

Cannot agree more. MonoKote on the flying surfaces is no different than a built up dope finish base. Sand it lightly with 1000 and it will take any paint just like dope. Solid trim is a snap using Windex to apply it and most automotive paint stores can match the monokote colors perfectly. Seams can be blended by light sanding and clear coat.

I do my fuselages too but that is for a different reason, and they do not rise to the beauty of a painted finish up close by a wide margin. Concave curves like fillets are difficult. The trick is to do them separately with strips. The seams disappear under the clear.

Ken

I have had my best results using Balsarite of ModPodge under the monokote on fuselages and bare wood on the wings.
It must be totally dust free and sanded smooth before applying. I use an air gun with a glove and sealing iron to do my work. I don't do well with the big iron.

Christian Patrickson · « **Reply #4 on:** November 17, 2023, 11:00:09 AM »

Hi,

Thank you all very much for your comments and advices. I think I will do as you suggest... I do like aerobatics very much..... but I am aware that flying an advanced U Control stunter after more than 30 years of not flying U Control (I never surpassed the most basic profile Midwest 049 glow powered models I flew with my dad when I was a kid....) will most likely imply several crashes..... But... anyway... I always admired the looks of U Control stunters. They just look so dam cool.... And some people who build them are just artists..... That is why at some point, I would like to build at least one of these models...

Talking about models, does anyone know if RSM will come back in business.... I would like to buy a Thunder Gazer kit or a Trivial Pursuit kit with the corresponding high end electric power plant. I already contacted Rogerio from Brazil. He gave me the following advice: "The ideal power train is a BadAss 3515-710kV engine - ESC Castle Talon 60 - 3-blade 12x5 propeller (Igor or Pavlo) 5 or 6S Thunder Power 2800mA battery and active timer." Does anyone know where to buy these items??? I mean, in case there is someone who can sell the complete package.... I know I can probably google, find and buy these items one by one.....

Thanks again!!!

Rgds.

Christian A. Patrickson

fred cesquim · « **Reply #5 on:** November 17, 2023, 12:36:22 PM »

Quote from: Christian Patrickson on November 17, 2023, 11:00:09 AM

Hi,

Thank you all very much for your comments and advices. I think I will do as you suggest... I do like aerobatics very much..... but I am aware that flying an advanced U Control stunter after more than 30 years of not flying U Control (I never surpassed the most basic profile Midwest 049 glow powered models I flew with my dad when I was a kid....) will most likely imply several crashes..... But... anyway... I always admired the looks of U Control stunters. They just look so dam cool.... And some people who build them are just artists..... That is why at some point, I would like to build at least one of these models...

Talking about models, does anyone know if RSM will come back in business.... I would like to buy a Thunder Gazer kit or a Trivial Pursuit kit with the corresponding high end electric power plant. I already contacted Rogerio from Brazil. He gave me the following advice: "The ideal power train is a BadAss 3515-710kV engine - ESC Castle Talon 60 - 3-blade 12x5 propeller (Igor or Pavlo) 5 or 6S Thunder Power 2800mA battery and active timer." Does anyone know where to buy these items??? I mean, in case there is someone who can sell the complete package.... I know I can probably google, find and buy these items one by one.....

Thanks again!!!

Rgds.

Christian A. Patrickson

]
you got the right person to inform about the Tgazer set up! in fact i was the one who built Rogerio´s Tgazer, it was my first e-power control line plane. Last time i´ve heard of RSM the owner was ill....sounds worrying

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #6 on:** November 17, 2023, 02:30:16 PM »

Quote from: Christian Patrickson on November 17, 2023, 11:00:09 AM

..... but I am aware that flying an advanced U Control stunter after more than 30 years of not flying U Control (I never surpassed the most basic profile Midwest 049 glow powered models I flew with my dad when I was a kid....) will most likely imply several crashes.....

Most of us are capable of crashing just about anything but, having flown just about every type and size of CL planes in my time I think the easiest to fly is the full size PA. Granted, they will jump when you tell them to but for the most part they are stable and very easy to control. I will guarantee that they are easier than the Ringmaster type. One of the things I have always been against is flying a plane that is not capable of doing what you ask of it. If your goal is to fly F2B then your choice of the type of plane that you stated earlier is where I would start. I would however build a profile practice plane like a Banshee or Skyray, maybe a Twister if you can find any of them, to try new things. They are fully F2B capable and rebuild easily. As you progress in skill you don't want the plane holding you back.

Ken

Christian Patrickson · « **Reply #7 on:** November 18, 2023, 06:18:58 AM »

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on November 17, 2023, 02:30:16 PM

Most of us are capable of crashing just about anything but, having flown just about every type and size of CL planes in my time I think the easiest to fly is the full size PA. Granted, they will jump when you tell them to but for the most part they are stable and very easy to control. I will guarantee that they are easier than the Ringmaster type. One of the things I have always been against is flying a plane that is not capable of doing what you ask of it. If your goal is to fly F2B then your choice of the type of plane that you stated earlier is where I would start. I would however build a profile practice plane like a Banshee or Skyray, maybe a Twister if you can find any of them, to try new things. They are fully F2B capable and rebuild easily. As you progress in skill you don't want the plane holding you back.

Ken

Totally agree. The same logic applies to aerobatic glider flying.... Which should not be much of a surprise since the same laws of physics apply in either case.....

I do have a P40 (electro) kit I purchased from RSM some years ago. It is a profile model... not the largest, but big enough... I think I will start by building and flying this model first in order to remember and revamp my "C/L aerobatic skills". Nevertheless, at some point, I do want to build and fly a fully competitive top of the line aerobatic C/L plane. A well-designed and built plane is such a pleasure to fly..... As you say, the model does exactly what you command it to do.... For that reason (in my case at least), the finishing method should not jeopardize the flying performance of the model. Again, that is just my own personal preference.

Thanks for your comments!!

Rgds.,

Christian A. Patrickson

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #8 on:** November 18, 2023, 12:24:08 PM »

Christian,
Since your going electric remember that Thunder Power has a Black Friday sale ( https://www.thunderpowerrc.com/ ) going on that will save you 35% on your packs and a good charger. Another good source for battery packs is HobbyStar at RC Juice (https://www.rcjuice.com/lipo-batteries.html), don't know if they have any sales but worth checking out.

Best, DennisT

Christian Patrickson · « **Reply #9 on:** November 18, 2023, 12:36:53 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Toth on November 18, 2023, 12:24:08 PM

Christian,
Since your going electric remember that Thunder Power has a Black Friday sale ( https://www.thunderpowerrc.com/ ) going on that will save you 35% on your packs and a good charger. Another good source for battery packs is HobbyStar at RC Juice (https://www.rcjuice.com/lipo-batteries.html), don't know if they have any sales but worth checking out.

Best, DennisT

Thank you very much for the tip. For now, I am just buying the bits little by little. I intend to start with the electric motor, the speed controller, timer, prop&spinner and obvously, the kit. I just sent an email to RSM Distribution asking them when they will (probably) be selling CL kits again. I do not plan to start building soon, since I need to fix my house (and workplace) first. So, it will be a while....

If you can, please let me know of other places (other than RSM Distribution) where I could buy a high-performance aerobatic CL model kit. Preferable, a take apart model. Yes, I do know that many "seasoned" CL flyers build their models from scratch (just using the plan)..... I guess I could do so.... but my time is very limited and I do prefer to start from a good kit rather than from scratch.

Thanks again!

Rgds.,

Christian A. Patrickson

Dave Moritz · « **Reply #10 on:** November 27, 2023, 09:57:42 AM »

Ken:

Regarding your comment above about using Balsarite or Modgepodge. Do you thin the Modgepodge or use it full strength?

Much obliged.

Dave Mo…

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #11 on:** November 27, 2023, 01:50:58 PM »

Christian,
There are many great flying airplane kits at Brodak.com. They have an excellent line of Vector's from a straight kit, ARC kit version. ARF kit version, an electric ARF kit version and a small Flying Clown ARF. They also have complete electric packages or single components. If you are looking for single components you could look at both the BadAss and Cobra line of motors from Inov8tive (https://innov8tivedesigns.com/products/brushlessmotors.html) I have used the BadAss motors on my latest ships and they have a lot of power;Castle Creations for ESC that have a control line mode to allow active braking at motor shut down (https://www.castlecreations.com/en/fixed-wing) I have used the Talon 35 for 35-40 size ships and the ICE 50 for full 60 size ships; Lipo packs at reasonable cost and weight - RC Juice ( https://www.rcjuice.com/lipo-batteries.html) they have several packs that are short ~75mm and fit profile ships right where the IC tank would go (https://www.rcjuice.com/lipo-batteries.html), Thunder Power Pro lites are also good packs but ~25% more expensive. Timers - Brodak has Hubin timers that are good to start with (https://brodak.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=timer) but you will need to also purchase the program box (one time). This gives you a snapshot of what you need to get started.

Best, DennisT

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #12 on:** November 27, 2023, 04:18:32 PM »

Quote from: Dave Moritz on November 27, 2023, 09:57:42 AM

Ken:

Regarding your comment above about using Balsarite or Modgepodge. Do you thin the Modgepodge or use it full strength?

Much obliged.

Dave Mo…

Both. I either thin it just a little or rub it in. I prefer the rubbing it in since it is water based, getting it too thin can cause warps. Rubbing it in also makes it more uniform. It doesn't flow like dope.

Ken

Dave Moritz · « **Reply #13 on:** November 27, 2023, 07:47:40 PM »

Gotcha, Ken. Thanks.

D…

Dave Moritz · « **Reply #14 on:** November 28, 2023, 01:14:27 PM »

Ken:

I did a trial run with rubbing in the Mod Podge, and I'm a convert! Unless I'm doing it wrong, it seems a little goes a long way. Also, it puts me in intimate (!) contact with the model's surface for a final check for irregularities. Many thanks.

Dave Mo...

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #15 on:** November 28, 2023, 04:00:44 PM »

Why is the Mod Podge a better option than something like Balsarite for film applied to the wood? Seems using the Balsarite will bond with the adhesive already on the film (MonoKote or Ultra) and hold stronger. What am I missing?

Best, DennisT

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #16 on:** November 28, 2023, 05:11:47 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Toth on November 28, 2023, 04:00:44 PM

Why is the Mod Podge a better option than something like Balsarite for film applied to the wood? Seems using the Balsarite will bond with the adhesive already on the film (MonoKote or Ultra) and hold stronger. What am I missing?

Best, DennisT

I can't seem to find anyone selling Balsarite. It probably is better than Mod Podge if you can find it.

Ken

Christian Patrickson · « **Reply #17 on:** December 03, 2023, 06:37:19 AM »

Dennis,

Thanks for the info. I already got in touch with Russell from OKieair. I would like to buy some electric power plants for the Jetco Shark and the Top Flite Gieseke Nobler I just purchased in ebay. There is a new aerobatic model sold ARF and ARC, the Ellpgia F2B (https://okieair.com/coming-soon). It is a high performance aerobatic model.... but No flaps!!!! Russell told me the model does not need them due to the big size wing 66 inch wing span..... Nice to have something quick to fly.... so I am thinking of buying one. However, here I must confess I am a total ignorant.... So I will appreciate your thoughts about these models.

As I said before, I am inclined towards high-end models.... since they are easier to fly.... that is why some years ago I contacted Yatsenko models to find out about their aerobatic planes. They are very similar to high end composite gliders (carbon fiber moulded planes). I thought it was really cool... however I did not purchased one since I know from my personal experience with gliders that getting into a new discipline is way, way more complicated than just buying a high performance model.

I would still like to buy a Thunder Gazer and/or Trivial Pursuit (electro) from RSM. Unfortunately, they appear to be still out of business....

Thanks again for your comments and tips.

Rgds.,

Christian A. Patrickson

Quote from: Dennis Toth on November 27, 2023, 01:50:58 PM

Christian, There are many great flying airplane kits at Brodak.com. They have an excellent line of Vector's from a straight kit, ARC kit version. ARF kit version, an electric ARF kit version and a small Flying Clown ARF. They also have complete electric packages or single components. If you are looking for single components you could look at both the BadAss and Cobra line of motors from Inov8tive (https://innov8tivedesigns.com/products/brushlessmotors.html) I have used the BadAss motors on my latest ships and they have a lot of power;Castle Creations for ESC that have a control line mode to allow active braking at motor shut down (https://www.castlecreations.com/en/fixed-wing) I have used the Talon 35 for 35-40 size ships and the ICE 50 for full 60 size ships; Lipo packs at reasonable cost and weight - RC Juice ( https://www.rcjuice.com/lipo-batteries.html) they have several packs that are short ~75mm and fit profile ships right where the IC tank would go (https://www.rcjuice.com/lipo-batteries.html), Thunder Power Pro lites are also good packs but ~25% more expensive. Timers - Brodak has Hubin timers that are good to start with (https://brodak.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=timer) but you will need to also purchase the program box (one time). This gives you a snapshot of what you need to get started.

Best, DennisT

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #18 on:** December 17, 2023, 07:28:43 AM »

Christian,
I think for your first CL model to get flying quickly the Brodak Vector electric ARF (https://brodak.com/control-line-kits/brodak/electric-vector-40.html) or the P40 ARF is the way to go. They give a list of all the equipment needed to complete, you will need to order this by phone or email, get everything you need in one order to save time and shipping cost. This is a very good model designed by Randy Smith who has had many contest winning designs. Just set the handle line spacing narrow (about 4") to start. Brodak has many good handles ( https://brodak.com/c-5-handle-expert-series-w-o-fingergrips.html) but you want one that allows adjustable spacing. For the Vector 0.012" cable lines 60' are good to start. Their electric Super Clown ARF is also a good starter ship option just a little smaller. One consideration is if you already fly electric glider what motors and battery packs do you use, see if you can use in one of the CL ships.

The other models you mentioned are all fine but will take time to get flying. With the ARF's it is ready in hours. Once you get the hang of flying CL you can start building any of the others.

Best, DennisT

Christian Patrickson · « **Reply #19 on:** December 28, 2023, 12:34:50 PM »

Dennis,

Thanks!! I am already talking to Brodak. I am currently thinking of building a Strega or a Vector. ARFs are also an option as you said.... but I know myself and whenever I receive an ARF I start redoing things and making modifications.....At the end it is twice as much work than if I had built the thing from the very beginning.

I would like to go big right away, since bigger models are easier to fly. I am waiting for Brodak to provide some feedback on the electric gear for the Strega or the Vector. I would like to go for the carbon 3 bladed prop, the "pointy spinner", a good electric motor, speed controller and timer.

Thanks for all the advice. However, it seems to me that there are not many places to buy these things anymore..... It is a real pity that RSM is no longer in business. All my best wishes to Eric Rule.... I have not been very successful though with other vendors..... I contact them, but then nothing happens... Very strange....

Rgds.,

Christian A. Patrickson

Quote from: Dennis Toth on December 17, 2023, 07:28:43 AM

Christian,
I think for your first CL model to get flying quickly the Brodak Vector electric ARF (https://brodak.com/control-line-kits/brodak/electric-vector-40.html) or the P40 ARF is the way to go. They give a list of all the equipment needed to complete, you will need to order this by phone or email, get everything you need in one order to save time and shipping cost. This is a very good model designed by Randy Smith who has had many contest winning designs. Just set the handle line spacing narrow (about 4") to start. Brodak has many good handles ( https://brodak.com/c-5-handle-expert-series-w-o-fingergrips.html) but you want one that allows adjustable spacing. For the Vector 0.012" cable lines 60' are good to start. Their electric Super Clown ARF is also a good starter ship option just a little smaller. One consideration is if you already fly electric glider what motors and battery packs do you use, see if you can use in one of the CL ships.

The other models you mentioned are all fine but will take time to get flying. With the ARF's it is ready in hours. Once you get the hang of flying CL you can start building any of the others.

Best, DennisT

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #20 on:** December 29, 2023, 06:53:34 AM »

Chris,
The other option if you want to build is to buy a laser cut rib set for the Vector from Brodak (they have rib sets for all the kits they sell) and build from plans. This saves lots of time and their ribs are very accurate (https://brodak.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=Vector+rib+sets).

Best, DennisT

Larry Renger · « **Reply #21 on:** February 15, 2024, 09:28:56 PM »

For light weight, nice finish and remarkable strength, try film over tissue. See the slc over polyspan thread above. Park flyer film over light polyspan is lighter than Monokote and way more tough and rigid. Try it on a test model and see if you like it.

Been using it for years. I certainly would’t switch back.

🤠