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Author Topic: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks  (Read 3889 times)

Offline Mike Alimov

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Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« on: May 03, 2019, 09:30:23 AM »
I am helping my 13-yr old finish his airplane.  It's been a long time since I've worked with Monokote.  I know how to prep surface, and cover the wing, curves, etc. 
The question is about applying color trim (especially large pieces, that cover 15-25% of the wing, like starburst).

I've consulted a couple of books written by former Toledo show winners in Monokote categories - Tom Ingram and Faye Stilley.  They both advocate splicing the entire color scheme on glass (with a small overlap, like 3/16") and then applying the resulting "skin" to the wing or fuselage.  I'm hesitant to go this route for three reasons: (1) fear that the seams will pull apart when shrinking the skin; (2) not sure if the spliced skin will give the same structural strength to the built-up wing as a one-piece covering; (3) this is a pretty advanced technique for a kid who is doing his first big Monokote job.

Then there was a discussion a few years ago where "Dirty" Dan was advocating applying the trim using a Windex spray and squeegeeing out the excess.  I've tried something like that, and the trim lays down nicely when everything is wet, but then there is little to no adhesion once the Windex evaporated. 

The Tom's Technique book mentions a method of applying trim "dry", but says you  need to make a bunch of little pin holes in the underlying covering before ironing the trim in place to prevent gas bubbles from being trapped.  I've looked at the covering on a Brodak SV-11 ARF, and sure enough there are lots of little bubbles visible on the trim.

Last but not least, there is the Monokote solvent.  It says to brush it on the underlying Monokote (say, wing), apply trim, and squeegee out the excess.  I've never used it, but it seems like the easiest way to go.

Question to all the Monokote experts out there - how do you apply trim?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 10:58:27 AM by Mike Alimov »

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2019, 10:06:50 AM »
Well, it's "Dirty" Dan Rutherford and he has done some nice work.  You may have missed the part about applying Trim Seal around the edge of the trim pieces after applying.  Yes, the Windex evaporates and the trim may or may not stay put. Easy does it with the solvent, apply sparingly on the edges only with a cotton swab.   Seal them and forget about it. 
Mike

Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2019, 11:02:08 AM »
Thank you for the clarification, Mike.  Do the edges need to be lifted to apply the Monokote solvent, or do you rely on some capillary action?

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2019, 12:06:32 PM »
I use a lot of MonoKote on practice ships.  I use most of these methods except the Windex.  It may be that the Windex has changed formula but it didn't stay stuck after about a week.  Since then I have used a heat gun and cotton gloves to "push" the bubbles to the edges.  If you put it on over a finished surface you will get a lot of bubbles.  Unfinished balsa with at most some balsarite on it will absorb the gas and you can get it really smooth and it will stay that way.  Over a finish it will constantly be bubbling up.  No matter how hard you try, there will be some bubbles over finished surfaces.  A pin hole and a shot from a heat gun will eliminate them.  If I have several in an area, I will put a hole in the largest one then push the others over to it under heat.  If they are close to an edge (1/2" or so) I just push them to the edge. 

By all means use a single layer wherever you can but keep in mind that when you apply the 2nd part you will soften and maybe shrink the edge of the 1st part.  I try and only do it if there is underlying structure.  Trying to get a Monokote edge to attach to another monokote edge is an artform I have never mastered.  Too cool, it doesn't stay stuck.  Too Hot had the 1st part shrinks.

I have had really good luck applying lettering and numbers by tacking them in the center then using a sealing iron just hot enough to melt the glue but not hot enough to shrink the monokote to stick them down working from the inside out. 

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Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2019, 01:40:28 PM »
Thank you for the clarification, Mike.  Do the edges need to be lifted to apply the Monokote solvent, or do you rely on some capillary action?

No, just make sure they are flat, any bubbles are there for good unless you prick them with a pin.  It will wick and be permanent.
Mike

Offline Target

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2019, 05:33:50 PM »
Ken-
The claim is that monokote has two temps, one for adhesive sticking it down, and a higher one to shrink it.
Of course, for doing what we are talking about, the further the temp gap for this, the better for adding trim safely.

So, I would say using the lowest temp that sticks it down is the right thing to do.
It might even be a good idea, the use a different film that has a lower temp rating for trims, such as "econocote" or some other lower temp film.

Too much trim solvent will make colors bleed and make a mess of things, from my experience. So be careful and sparing with it.

Hope this helps.

R,
Target 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 10:46:32 AM by Target »
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2019, 06:17:16 PM »
No, just make sure they are flat, any bubbles are there for good unless you prick them with a pin.  It will wick and be permanent.
He is right.  If you don't get them out right away you can drain them (of air) and make them flat but you will never get rid of the ring.

Ken
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2019, 09:13:40 PM »
You got that Dan used Windex to move the piece to the right position? The Windex acts as an adhesive.

Just sayin'
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2019, 02:04:49 AM »
Another old chestnut....

Windex will certainly float a piece of Super MonoKote used as trim on top of the base covering so that you can accurately position it, but Windex is not an adhesive, nor is it a solvent for the adhesive on MonoKote.

Go ahead, try it. Lay a piece of dark colored Super MonoKote down on a piece of glass or a countertop. Completely soak it for 30 minutes. Flood it. Then try to wipe off some of the pigmented adhesive with a white paper towel. You'll get nothing. Nada.

What is happening is that as you squeegee out the Windex, and as it slowly dries, you end up with atmospheric pressure holding the trim down, because there is no air left between the two layers. Like wringing a pair of Jo blocks together. Which is also why you can be pretty successful with just wiping the edge of the trim with a cloth or swab that is only very slightly dampened with the MonoKote solvent. If you can keep the edge from lifting, the rest will stay "vacuumed" down.

If you want to convince yourself, turn the trim upside down. Adhesive side out. Windex it down to your piece of glass. It will stick exactly as good as if the adhesive side was down.

If you decide to try to active the trim adhesive with heat....it takes a lot of finesse to avoid acres of bubbles. You can get pretty good at it using several different techniques, but don't count of the first job coming out smooth. At least in my experience....

I pretty much gave up using MonoKote Trim sheets because the surfaces I wanted to embellish always had a bit of compound curvature. Guaranteed pucker or wrinkle for me there. I managed a little better using the Super MonoKote as trim....

Divot McSlow

(edited to clarify the description applied to the use of Super MonoKote as trim.)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 05:31:15 PM by Dave Hull »

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2019, 04:58:43 PM »
I think people are confusing multiple techniques. The one I use(d) is Super Monokote for the base, and Trim Monokote for the trim. Trim is the same as original "not super" Monokote, and is self-adhesive. You use Windex (or better, something like Sprayway, or a dedicated "non-ammonia" window trim solution for cars) on the base, then apply the Trim Monokote over the top of it. This allows extensive repositioning. Then working from one corner to the others, you squeege out the Windex with a plastic or hard rubber card of some sort - again, automotive window trim applicators work fine, they are some short of pretty hard urethane. This displaces the Windex and allows the sticky adheive to stick permanently. DO NOT apply any heat! All this will do is boil the residual windex and make very ugly bubbles.

    I have never had *any* problem with the edges lifting on Trim Monokote, even back in the days of unmuffled Foxes with Superfuel. But you can seal the edges with clear dope or something with a TINY paint brush right along the edge. Its absurdly easy to get too much, but you can always clean it off and try again.

    I have never had any real success using either trim solvent and super monokote, or trying to use heat. The trim solvent barely touches the adhesive, and it is very weakly adhered. If you even touch it with heat, it bubbles up. Attempting to create multi-coloroed patterns on a piece of glass using lap joints is insane, I know that people do it for "show" planes, but I bet you can never get it adhered enough or get the edges "buried" sufficiently without causing a slip of the joint.

     Brett

Offline big ron

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 11:15:38 AM »
Monokote


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
John Blanchard
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Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 09:07:11 PM »
Monokote

Can you share how you accomplished that?

Offline big ron

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Re: Monokote trim over monokote - methods, tips and tricks
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2019, 04:52:41 PM »
Not my work but very impressive. The handy work of Mr Tipton
John Blanchard
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