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Building Tips and technical articles. => Paint and finishing => Topic started by: Howard Rush on May 06, 2012, 08:03:51 PM
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Tip 1. Don't have cleaning solvent and thinner in the same size cans on your bench.
Tip 2. If you are wiping your plane with cleaning solvent and it feels unusually sticky, check to see what's really on the rag.
I was just reminded of these important finishing facts ten minutes ago.
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Only you, Howard. Only you.
Hope it wasn't the new one.
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#^ Sorta make a feller feel like a penny waitin' on change... y1
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Yea, but Howard is a master. When he messes up, it's always creative. Even more than me and that's saying something.
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No bats were harmed in the making of this airplane.
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YET
Now Howard, please make sure that people know I had no part in this portion of the finishing process, I have a reputation after all
well ok so not THAT reputation,,, the other one
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Hey, at least I had outside intervention. What are you blaming this on? ;D
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Um, Howard, what type of cleaning solvent did you think you were using?
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This thread needs pictures. VD~
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Clint,
you probably like to look at train wreck pictures too huh! LL~
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Clint,
you probably like to look at train wreck pictures too huh!
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Um, Howard, what type of cleaning solvent did you think you were using?
PPG Acryli-Clean. I have been using mostly Windex, and this is another argument for Windex.
Neither this nor the previous instance of using thinner by mistake on lacquer did much harm. This was on one side of an elevator. It sanded right out. It comingled the finish and base coats, so I'll have to give it an extra toot or two of white, which could cost me a gram.
In other news, I did an experiment to see if tack cloths do anything. They do. It was a blind experiment: I didn't realize I was doing an experiment until the first couple of parts were painted.
Also, I learned that reflexively grabbing a flap being dropped on the garage floor makes grabbing dents in addition to the impact damage. All was made well by the green putty that is eager to dry before it is put on the part, then sits there taking its sweet time drying.
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Also, I learned that reflexively grabbing a flap being dropped on the garage floor makes grabbing dents in addition to the impact damage. All was made well by the green putty that is eager to dry before it is put on the part, then sits there taking its sweet time drying.
This is my biggest problem.
The force of grabbing something before it hits the floor is greater than the impact itself...I feel your pain Howard. :'(
Derek
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Yeppers, grabbing things that are falling is a natural instinct... In the shop, we learn that when you drop sometime, most times its better to try to get out of the way instead of stopping it. Once in a while you get lucky and catch it without inflicting more damage, but often times you end up missing and deflecting the piece across the shop and making it worse,,
Howard,
sorry to hear you are suffering travails,, rest assured, as you create, invent, and suffer through each of these "issues", it reduces the number of possible problems from infinite ,, to less than infinite,,,, slightly,, ( assuming of course we learn from them which is not always a given LOL)
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I, of course, have developed mad skills so that if some unforeseen event happens, I can grab the part out of the air deftly without damage. I just have to train the bats...
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I have a cure for grabbing falling objects. Take up the game of darts. One of the first things you'll learn is NOT to try and catch one if it bounces off the board. You'll also be a little lighter on your feet for fear said dart lands on(in) your shoe.
Steve
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Dropped the other flap while painting it today. I was able to arrest it without squeezing hard because it was sticky from the wet paint.
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Howard, have you ever considered painting jigs to hold parts while you paint them,,
Just sayin buddy,, twice,, hmm
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I am strongly considering a different method for holding flaps.
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LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ You here all week Howard? :##
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I am beginning to think perhaps My earlier comments about pictures being in poor taste was hasty,, though video of this may be more entertaining,,
VD~
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Try this Howard.
Derek
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That's the professional way of doing it. I like paint all over my hands and clothes. LL~ LL~ LL~
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I had a couple of minor misadventures today. Flaps were all fixed and lovely, except for a tiny pinhole in one. I touched it with a toothpick with thinned DZ-3 on the toothpick. More than I intended went onto the flap. Curiously, it formed a crater. The pinhole must have been part of a sinkhole in the flap. It's filled in with green stuff now.
I'm doing some striping involving lots of colors and masking. I noticed that the green and blue looked a lot alike. Then I noticed that I hadn't masked the green when I tooted the blue. It's OK. It was just a practice stripe. Another thing I learned is that the fancy masking tape that Randy uses doesn't last forever, although I am counting on the stuff farther inside the roll still being good.
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Howard,
Pete Peterson converted me to the high end blue painter mask recently. It's cheaper than the 3M vinyl or the Finesse stuff and work very well. So that's what I'm using at this point.
And tell me you aren't painting a plane green and blue. Where we fly that is tantamount to suicide. How will you see it? LL~
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Here are some colors. Looks rather Gialdiniesque, I think.
Changing the subject, in the back yard just behind my little finger in this picture, I saw a bear cub Friday. He ran back into the woods when he saw me. One can imagine for what.
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Pete Peterson converted me to the high end blue painter mask recently.
What kind is that?
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Tape
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I thought you made the flaps so stiff gravity had no effect.
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Howard,
ScotchBlue™ Painter's Tape Delicate Surface with Edge-Lock™ Paint Line Protector (2080EL)
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I thought you made the flaps so stiff gravity had no effect.
At which way to pull out
There may be a lapse,
But the Jive Combat Team
Has the stiffest of flaps.
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Howard,
ScotchBlue™ Painter's Tape Delicate Surface with Edge-Lock™ Paint Line Protector (2080EL)
Another very similar product is the Delicate Surface version (yellow) of Frog tape. It also has the Edge-Block, in fact I think they were first with it and the other manufacturers copied it. It was previously an exclusive item only available at Sherwin Williams, but recently saw it in Walmart. Try a roll, you will like it.
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Howard,
ScotchBlue™ Painter's Tape Delicate Surface with Edge-Lock™ Paint Line Protector (2080EL)
Yep, I agree, the Scotch Blue 2080EL is great stuff. Found mine at Home Depot and have been using it for a while now. A bit thinner and less tacky than their normal blue painters tape.
I've also gotten to like the yellow Frogtape, it's real handy in certain situations because you can sort of see through it.
I must have at least dozen or so different types and widths of the same types of tape that I use regularly anymore. Certain tapes just work better than others for different situations. Having them all handy at any given moment definitely helps things along with less headache. y1
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Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 3. When you decide you don't like a graphic and rip the paint mask off the wing, don't forget the hair dryer trick. Dope doesn't stick to Polyspan as well as you'd like it to.
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Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 3. When you decide you don't like a graphic and rip the paint mask off the wing, don't forget the hair dryer trick. Dope doesn't stick to Polyspan as well as you'd like it to.
I wish I could make fun of you but I do just as much dumb stuff as you do...
Derek
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Amen, Derek, amen.
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I wish I could make fun of you but I do just as much dumb stuff as you do...
That's no excuse for not making fun of me.
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Howard,, I disavow any knowledge of your painting process,
ok well, how about I just dont admit to any knowledge,,
ok well just dont blame me,, thats good enough,,
If you were using Urethane base clear like we talked about,, you would have it finished, without these problems,, ( well except for the whole dropping the flaps thing,, ) and you would be able to fly it in Eugene,, Just sayin
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yea, yea, you and urethane. Just marry the stuff and be done with it. LL~
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If I'd started with Nitrate like Pete told me to, I probably wouldn't have pulled the paint off with the mask.
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Howard,
Here's a tip. If you put a 20 point finish on the plane, don't hit the pavement with it. It really messes up the finish.
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When I paint, everything gets painted.
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Hey Howard, leave no stone un-turned --- and paint it.
On the other hand, you might consider nitrile gloves. I hear they are all the rage.
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Yeah but Randy, then how would he show us the colors,, ( cause we know he wont show his plane!) and then he would have missed the whole "bear going in the woods" line too
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Just a thought, man. Hey, do what you want. Try not to point the gun at your glasses, though. Ask me how I know this.
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Yeah but Randy, then how would he show us the colors,, ( cause we know he wont show his plane!) and then he would have missed the whole "bear going in the woods" line too
Here's a black and white picture of the dog. I think it looks really cool. I might leave it this way.
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Howard,,
thanks,
I was just teasing,,
It looks sharp,, though I think that your appearance points may suffer slightly without some form of color,, maybe some artistic dribblings ala Mikey Tuttles style of artwork?
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Howard - as a respected stunt pilot - and someone who's of the forefront of stunt design - I need you to explain the benifits of this new incarnation of design.
How do you find pitch and stability of that model with the new design elements of no flaps and Stab?
What are the improvements - and is this going to be a trend for other electrics ?
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Active stabilization and control are done with control moment gyros. Igor's already doing it.
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That's a big canopy. Wow.
You could go with a sort of Jackson Pollack thing. Use the same white, add just a few drops of black to darken the tone a step and paint on the trim. Do it again for then next trim color. I've thought of doing that sort of really subtle finish before, but then decided that I just wasn't a subtle sort of guy.
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That's a big canopy. Wow.
You could go with a sort of Jackson Pollack thing. Use the same white, add just a few drops of black to darken the tone a step and paint on the trim. Do it again for then next trim color. I've thought of doing that sort of really subtle finish before, but then decided that I just wasn't a subtle sort of guy.
really,, your not? and here all this time I thought you were a quiet, shy retiring,, subtle kinda guy,,
oh wait,, never mind
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That's a big canopy. Wow.
The molded top shell seen from the top changes at the flap TE from a constant width to a taper. To minimize the strain on the wood, I had the front of the shell rise up. This makes it look kinda like a 747. It's unnecessary. Wet balsa is more pliable than I thought.
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How do you find pitch and stability of that model with the new design elements of no flaps and Stab?
Maybe tilt the motor? Landings would be an issue, though.
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You could go with a sort of Jackson Pollack thing. Use the same white, add just a few drops of black to darken the tone a step and paint on the trim. Do it again for then next trim color. I've thought of doing that sort of really subtle finish before, but then decided that I just wasn't a subtle sort of guy.
You mean "Mr. Drip Painting"?
I was trying to think of how to do that on a plane without weighing it down or taking forever -- I couldn't get there from here.
Getting a "random splashes of paint" look without the weight of -- well -- random splashes of paint, would be a cool thing.
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You mean "Mr. Drip Painting"?
I was trying to think of how to do that on a plane without weighing it down or taking forever -- I couldn't get there from here.
Getting a "random splashes of paint" look without the weight of -- well -- random splashes of paint, would be a cool thing.
for the record,, Urethane auto base coat colors are very opaque,, and the coverage to weight ratio is actually very good compared to other pigment systems,, IOW,, it would not weigh that much,, certainly less than any other pigment system for the same coverage,, speaking of coverage,, you would be covering very little of the surface relative to painted trim systems,, the kicker would be in getting the clear on thick enough to level out without adding extra weight,,
but then Howard is a checks and blocks guy,, dont think we will see him with a "drip" style paint scheme,,
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I seem to remember Jerry Eichten's "Picasso" plane. Using a paint soaked T-shirt as a brush. It was, ah, interesting.
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Actually the true Jackson Pollock paintings pretty much cover the whole canvas with multiple layers of dripped-on paint. And to my (obviously incompetent* eye) they look ugly.
I had thought that his paintings were something like a mostly white canvas with a drip or two here and there -- they're not, not by a long shot.
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes
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Tim,
You really have to see it in person. Makes a bit difference.
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Good one, Charles! Easily your best post to date!!! LL~ Steve
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Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 4. Don't drop your 1/16" high-zoot Randy Powell Finesse tape on the garage floor. The cat hair and overspray dust do not* allow a crisp trim line.
Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 5. When you get your fancy paint masks and go to cut out the individual graphics with an X-Acto knife, do not put the other mask under the one you are cutting.
*edited to correct sign
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GST (Georgia Stunt Team) Tip #1: Try to finish the plane before the second week in July.
Derek
P.S. Glad to hear that you are making progress even if it is now 3 steps forward and 2 steps back. ;)
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The following JCT and GST Camps should follow my tips...
PJ Stunt finishing tip # 2 Try to finish the plane within 12 months of starting it.......
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Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 6. If you live in the Northwest US, do not paint your airplane on Memorial Day weekend. For one thing, you will miss the excellent Northwest Regionals. For another, the air is full of cottonwood tree fuzz. The ground looks like it has been snowing.
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Northwest Finishing Tip # 5
Don't paint the plane when the humidity is over 95%. It's just a bad idea.
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Northwest Ohio finishing tip #1 - just send the thing to Roger Wildman and then lie about the BOM quals. HB~> HB~>
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I am in the process of removing the bandages and seeing what I painted. This has elicited more tips:
Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 3A. Don't get complacent about the hair dryer. Even the most innocuous looking piece of tape can pull the paint off down to bare wood.
Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 7. Before you remove the masks from a part you think you have sprayed, check to see if the color was changed as intended. There's a corollary:
Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 8. If you are painting a blue stripe, for example, on a white wing, put masking tape or something on the parts you want to remain white.
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Hey Howard, are you having fun yet?
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Georgia Stunt Camp - Front Row Finishing tip # 4 : When painting your spinner make sure and count that the cut out slots and number of blades are the same.
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Northwest Finishing Tip #11
When covering a plane, make sure you actually have enough paint before you wet the silkspan. (that was fun today)
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As someone who is in the process of finishing as we speak non of these tips are filling me with confidence it will be front row......
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Georgia Stunt Camp - Front Row Finishing tip # 4 : When painting your spinner make sure and count that the cut out slots and number of blades are the same.
LL~
GST tip #5: When your wheel pants match your prop there is no need to add extra weight painting them...
Derek
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LOL great tip by GST :)
LOL ;D
You forgot to mention GST tip #3...
GST tip #3: When mistakes are made - cover them up with flat carbon matt parts
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LOL great tip by GST :)
LOL ;D
You forgot to mention GST tip #3...
GST tip #3: When mistakes are made - cover them up with flat carbon matt parts
Or more clear then buff it out! Maybe that is why it weighs so much...
Derek
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Why not simplify the whole mess and do it DOC's way. One solid color for the whole airplane. Graphics are cut from Monokote. Final coat is automotive clear. Let sit for a week and go fly. H^^
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Why not simplify the whole mess and do it DOC's way. One solid color for the whole airplane. Graphics are cut from Monokote.
That's what I'm striving for, but note the last dozen pictures here, https://plus.google.com/photos/117730697743699659802/albums/5747756662091454033?banner=pwa , to see what's expected of us on the West Coast.
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Howard,
Be innovative. Don't just follow the crowd.
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Wow, that's an inspiring collection of beautifully finished models.
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Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 9. If you buy a color laser printer just to print decals for your stunt plane, check to see if that particular model printer will actually print decals. For example, the HP CP1025nw printer's toner won't stick to decal paper.
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Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 9. If you buy a color laser printer just to print decals for your stunt plane, check to see if that particular model printer will actually print decals. For example, the HP CP1025nw printer's toner won't stick to decal paper.
Ouch!
Derek
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Howard,
Did you use LASER decal paper?
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Tom makes a good point. The Inkjet decal paper is different from the Laser decal paper.
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I have a Minolta 3100 color laser and it will print just fine on ink jet decal paper. Discovered this when I needed a couple decals and all I had left was ink jet paper. When I first read what Howard said above I was going to suggest he try ink jet paper in his laser, couldn't hurt and just might work.
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Howard,
Did you use LASER decal paper?
I, too, assumed I was dumb enough to use the wrong paper. I got the official JCT Bel decal paper. It says "laser" on the bag, but I suspected they might have sent me ink jet paper by mistake. I tried it in an ink jet printer. It really, really doesn't work in an ink jet printer.
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You have to print on the front, not the backing. ;)
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Howard,
I get mine from MicroMark and have little problem printing with an inkjet printer.
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PJ Stunt Finishing tip # 17 : When your working with wings and you hear a crack, find out what broke - its not always just the wood setteling........
''
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You have to print on the front, not the backing.
Maybe in the Southern Hemisphere.
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JCT trimming tip #1. Boogers make excellent nose weight.
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GST ( Georgia Stunt team ) engine setup tip # 2 : 3 Blade props dont fit on 4 Blade spinners.
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JCT trimming tip #1. Boogers make excellent nose weight.
LL~ LL~ LL~
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Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 10. Windex leaves a blue residue on a white base coat that shows up through the clear coat. It's still better for cleaning your airplane than lacquer thinner.
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It shouldnt...
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It shouldnt...
It doesn't if you wipe it all off. If you spray a wing and get the inevitable trickles to the other side, you really ought to wipe them off.
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Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 11. If you sand a cat hair in the clear coat and go through the white base coat into the gray blocking coat, then toot some white onto the gray to fix the problem, be sure to switch the airbrush back to clear before spraying your decal edges.
Disclaimer: I didn't actually spray white over the decals on the airplane, but I came really close. Other Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tips herein are based on actual recent experience.
In other news, I now have two sets of fancy artist colored pens, neither of which works to touch up little anomalies in colored acrylic lacquer. One really has to break down, remask the part, and toot it with the airbrush, with the aforementioned danger that that entails. The art supply store is, however, close to the all-you-can-eat Indian lunch buffet.
I'll have you know that I now have the requisite hexagons on my airplane.
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Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 12. Be careful when opening the garage door a little to let fumes out after spraying your airplane. A robin, Turdus migratorius (its actual scientific name), could come into the garage, become disoriented by fumes, and soil your freshly painted airplane (see illustration). I am considering having Spencer fitted with a respirator so he can stand guard. At least it wasn't a bat.
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yea, had it been a bat it would have flew into the plane and roll down the entire length of the wing. Get to cleaning.
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Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 13. When a bird has been flying wildly around your garage for awhile, feathers and other bird material drift down from the ceiling for hours thereafter and will fall into the next coat of clear.
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PJ Front Row Finishing Tip : Dont clear where bats ,cats ,mice or geese may enter.
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Howard,, are you having better luck this time getting the paint to stick to your trousers?
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But Howard, you live in Bellevue. How would varmint dare enter your garage? May upscale animals but not common birds ... or bats.
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It was indeed a downmarket bird, probably on its way back to Kent and mistook discarded fuel tubing for worms. A good cat wouldn't let this happen, but birds have little respect for Spencer.
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Howard,, are you having better luck this time getting the paint to stick to your trousers?
I haven't messed with the trousers lately. I'll try them on if time and weight permit.
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You haven't messed in your trousers lately? Well, that's good, I guess.
Are there pictures of the plane? I don't to see trousers that have been messed in.
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There are no pictures of the plane, and it's not photogenic. I am trying to install the electrickery while the plane and I are gassing off prior to my tooting the Isocyanate Death Paint.
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Wear a mask. I understand the fumes are toxic. Well, maybe not to you, but to most of us.
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There are no pictures of the plane, and it's not photogenic. I am trying to install the electrickery while the plane and I are gassing off prior to my tooting the Isocyanate Death Paint.
electrickery....yuck!
Derek
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Jive Combat Team Front Row Finish Tip 14. When you forget to use the tack cloth, do it when you spray something soft like dope, not harder-than-diamond Isocyanate Death Paint.
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Another thing I noticed was that either the Isocyanate Death Paint got into the mechanism of my official CF Slattery paint stand and caused extra friction, or the extra friction came from the ponderous weight of the IDP. I blew it on thick.
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Howard,, ONE coat right?
and how did it turn out,, aside from dust,,
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It looks good. If it dries, I'll sand out the cat hair and polish it up using the Granderson Machine Buffing System.
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It looks good. If it dries, I'll sand out the cat hair
Just tell them its your version of Turbulator strips on the wing, calculated precisly to match the boundry layer thickness and flow in those areas due to some obscure mathmatics,,
( of course then you would have to scribble some convincing mumbo jumbo formulas to support it,, )
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The boundary layer thickness at the thickest part of the wing is about that of the bump in the clearcoat from a cat hair. I posted a plot from XFoil somewhere here.
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See http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=25877.0, post 29. That's for an Impact with flaps at 30 degrees and an angle of attack of 10 degrees. Boundary layer thickness is about .001 chord.
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well then the work is already done,, lol
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I know some scientists that work that way. They screw up then come up with math to justify it. Seems to work for them ... more or less.
I look forward to seeing it eventually.
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I know some scientists that work that way. They screw up then come up with math to justify it. Seems to work for them ... more or less.
We learned about inertial navigation systems-- then a new thing-- in school. They seemed hopelessly complicated. I wondered how anybody ever figured it out. Years later I met one of the guys who built one of the first systems. They started with something basic and added patches until it worked. Then they wrote it up as if it was all planned from the get-go, and that's what I read in school.
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Back to paint. I had the interesting experience of tooting the IDP (PPG Global D893 and friends), then going to the basement and tooting some rattle-can Rustoleum on a combat plane. I decided that, considering the cost of the spray equipment and everything, that the Rustoleum's finish quality per dollar was just as good as the IDP's.
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Howard., very astute observation,,
of course, appearance judging has no accommodation for the quality per dollar quotient,, perhaps you should suggest that?
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Howard had his custom, very stylist hat today at the Stunt-A-Thon. Kept the rain from draining down his neck anyway.
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Ya... you don't get what you don't pay for... but the real shocker here is that someone is actually PAINTING a combat plane... I thought all the new fangled ones had carbon booms, clear plastic baggie wings and an aluminum bolt on front-end?
EricV
Back to paint. I had the interesting experience of tooting the IDP (PPG Global D893 and friends), then going to the basement and tooting some rattle-can Rustoleum on a combat plane. I decided that, considering the cost of the spray equipment and everything, that the Rustoleum's finish quality per dollar was just as good as the IDP's.
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And here it is on the front row as advertised.
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The circle is now complete.
Front row as predicted - well done Howard.
Perhaps a selfish photo of just your model by itself? Front Row cant really call it dog anymore !
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Howard,, great to see it up front,, so I guess the judges are also cat hair fans then?
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Mark - Im fairly certain the cat hair was located in mass on the fin and back section - Spencer is Orange and white - so the colour choice was mostly dictated by where ,and what colour the hair was.
great slight of hand by JCT
S?P