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Author Topic: And now for something completely different...  (Read 1748 times)

Online Ken Culbertson

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And now for something completely different...
« on: April 11, 2019, 12:28:38 AM »
Attached is something I did not expect.  ~^    This is Rustoleum over Z-Poxy I let cure nearly one month.  It has 2 coats of primer over the Z-Poxy  The Rustoleum is Painters Choice with Primer.  This popped up in 4 places on the nose and cowl.

Obviously I am going to sand it off but what do I do to stop it from just doing it again?  mw~

This sucks - Ken
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 07:57:23 AM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2019, 09:25:01 AM »
incompatible PRIMER with the Rustoleum....some Rustoleum be Enamel, some be Lacquer...same same with primers....not enough info to diagnose completely.....the Z poxy first layer is NOT the problem and it will take ANY primer formula IMO
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2019, 09:48:04 AM »
incompatible PRIMER with the Rustoleum....some Rustoleum be Enamel, some be Lacquer...same same with primers....not enough info to diagnose completely.....the Z poxy first layer is NOT the problem and it will take ANY primer formula IMO
Both Primer and Color were the same Rustoleum line.  Painters Choice 2x.  Is it possible that they are not compatible within the same line?
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 09:54:26 AM »
Gee,

Who's advice did you follow?

Couldn't have been mine because I never have issues like that with the products I use and recommend.



Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 10:24:50 AM »
Funny this came up. I have also in the past used the same clear with exactly the same results and this was also used over top of other Rustoleum products and non-Rustoleum products. I also let the original paint cure for a couple of weeks. The only time I used it with success before shelving it was to spray on a coupld of dry coats, 3 I believe with each coat drying between. Once I had that done, I was able to spray it on with a nice coat. Also to be fair, this was not on an airplane, but a metal support bracket just in case that makes a difference. I thought when I saw it, it would be completely compatible with another product from the same manufacturer.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 10:37:26 AM »
Funny this came up. I have also in the past used the same clear with exactly the same results and this was also used over top of other Rustoleum products and non-Rustoleum products. I also let the original paint cure for a couple of weeks. The only time I used it with success before shelving it was to spray on a coupld of dry coats, 3 I believe with each coat drying between. Once I had that done, I was able to spray it on with a nice coat. Also to be fair, this was not on an airplane, but a metal support bracket just in case that makes a difference. I thought when I saw it, it would be completely compatible with another product from the same manufacturer.
I have heard that the Clear is not the same formula as the color.  I have tested it on some scrap and what I have seems to be OK.  This happened between the primer and the color.  Can't rule out "Sh** Happens" and just sand it off and try again.  One thing is clear, the next time I finish a PA ship the "dope" will go on the plane instead or being the one holding the spray can. y1
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Offline Jim Mynes

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2019, 03:38:29 PM »
Gee,

Who's advice did you follow?

Couldn't have been mine because I never have issues like that with the products I use and recommend.

Not helpful.
I have seen the light, and it’s powered by a lipo.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2019, 01:20:00 PM »
Not helpful.

Not helpful again?

My reply was meant to inspire curiosity. Possibly like, "What do you do and use?"

What I do and use works and works well. I had two models out in the hot Florida sun for a few hours as a test for gas out. No issues.

Everything is in my builds, photos and text.

Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Trostle

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2019, 02:13:11 PM »
Gee,

Who's advice did you follow?

Couldn't have been mine because I never have issues like that with the products I use and recommend.

Oh Master,

I am so disappointed.  I have come to realize that you just flat do not get it or understand.

Keith

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2019, 03:29:41 PM »
Oh Master,

I am so disappointed.  I have come to realize that you just flat do not get it or understand.

Keith

Keith,

Are you the guy that built a NATS winning Warbird at 42" and the model weighed 82 ounces?
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2019, 04:58:46 PM »
Keith,

Are you the guy that built a NATS winning Warbird at 42" and the model weighed 82 ounces?


   Reread the first part of your question v e r y  s l o w l y!  Yes, he is  a NATS winning model designer and pilot. That is far, far so out of reach for you, that you just might as well NOT go there with a really poor attempt at being a smart ass, You have the ass part down pat but need to work on the smart part.  You are not qualified to even clean his paint brushes.

     Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee


    Edit to add:           Keith Trostle       
                        1970 : First Place Open Precision Aerobatics, Winner of Walker Cup
                        2000:  Firsr Place Open Control Line Precision Scale

               The only person to win both stunt and precision scale at the US Nationals.  Not to mention a whole lotta stuff in between.! y1 y1 y1
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 08:11:50 PM by Dan McEntee »
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2019, 08:59:47 PM »
Gee,

Who's advice did you follow?

Couldn't have been mine because I never have issues like that with the products I use and recommend.
I purposely did not respond to this when it was first posted because I knew where it was headed and I was hoping to get an answer to my question before it did.  All I needed was advice as to how to fix the problem.  What I got was like taking your wrecked car to the garage for repairs and all the mechanics do is tell you how to avoid accidents.  I never got that answer before things deteriorated, but I did get some hints (mostly on the other thread) that led me to at least identify what I did wrong.  I am having to figure out on my own how to fix it.

We lost a subscriber early this week because of just this sort of madness.  These technical forums are supposed to be where we can get answers to questions.  If I had wanted to know how to start a finish I would have asked that.  I did the finish right, I simply made a mistake and was hoping that someone else had made the same mistake and fixed it successfully.

I don't ask questions If I have not already tried to find the answer and I don't hesitate to ask them either.  That is what this site is supposed to be..or at least it was when I joined.   It really bothers me when I start a thread and it turns into this.

Ken
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2019, 09:31:58 PM »
   Well, I'm, sorry that had to happen, but just proves a point that some of us have been trying to make.

   If there was one thing that would make me switch to electric, it is the fact that you do not need to worry about fuel proofing, so you can use one medium all the way through on the finish and keep it pretty light, and not worry about fatal reactions. The old Windy tapes taught that a dope finish adds about 10 ounces to the finished weight of a Cardinal sized airplane, if done correctly. With dope being a lacquer product. it is very easy to work with once you get some practice and learn a thing or two, and you can shave some weight from that ten ounce figure. You don't really need to use primer, which can add up some weight, if the colors are right and you plan it out. You can work so fast you can almost lay out and spray the final paint scheme on a model in a two day weekend and spend some extra time sanding.  The big thing is waiting for the clear to cure to rub out nicely. Acrylic lacquers can work the same way and are available a lot more places than dope, and you can use regular spray equipment or get it in rattle cans.. They can work well on dope build ups, and in the event of a crash, are easier to repair. You can put down some neat finishes and thumb your nose at the two part clear stuff and the extra work and weight that they bring. Like I mentioned, this to me is the biggest advantage of an electric model, but they just don't make the right kind of noise! And sticking a playing card in the prop arc just doesn't quite cut the mustard! So I'll have to stick with what I do, but even at that rate, an overall dope finish, and spot application of two part clear on the critical parts of the nose and wing roots is still quite manageable and if done right is invisible to see. Several guys on here have praised the Nason system for both their models and their luthier endeavors, so that is what I'll probably use next.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2019, 01:16:40 AM »
   Well, I'm, sorry that had to happen, but just proves a point that some of us have been trying to make.

   If there was one thing that would make me switch to electric, it is the fact that you do not need to worry about fuel proofing, so you can use one medium all the way through on the finish and keep it pretty light, and not worry about fatal reactions. The old Windy tapes taught that a dope finish adds about 10 ounces to the finished weight of a Cardinal sized airplane, if done correctly. With dope being a lacquer product. it is very easy to work with once you get some practice and learn a thing or two, and you can shave some weight from that ten ounce figure. You don't really need to use primer, which can add up some weight, if the colors are right and you plan it out. You can work so fast you can almost lay out and spray the final paint scheme on a model in a two day weekend and spend some extra time sanding.  The big thing is waiting for the clear to cure to rub out nicely. Acrylic lacquers can work the same way and are available a lot more places than dope, and you can use regular spray equipment or get it in rattle cans.. They can work well on dope build ups, and in the event of a crash, are easier to repair. You can put down some neat finishes and thumb your nose at the two part clear stuff and the extra work and weight that they bring. Like I mentioned, this to me is the biggest advantage of an electric model, but they just don't make the right kind of noise! And sticking a playing card in the prop arc just doesn't quite cut the mustard! So I'll have to stick with what I do, but even at that rate, an overall dope finish, and spot application of two part clear on the critical parts of the nose and wing roots is still quite manageable and if done right is invisible to see. Several guys on here have praised the Nason system for both their models and their luthier endeavors, so that is what I'll probably use next.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
Thanks Dan
I am out of the woods for now and it may be a while before I do this again.  It's FLYING TIME #^  I felt the same about electric till I tried it.  I don't think I will build another IC PA ship.  I do miss the sound but you get over it pretty quick.  I don't miss the mess and now that I am used to it I love the way they take off and I have probably added 10 points to my overhead 8 and clover by not having to concentrate on the engine sound since I knew it wasn't going to stop!

Ken
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Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2019, 09:03:47 PM »
Seems like a too heavy spray, Unfortunately hard to control if using brush or rattle can. To avoid this kind of thing light almost dry spray coats can avoid this type of thing. There was an issue between on the last coat and the layer underneath. Which can happen if the coat is too heavy, no matter how long the base drys. The solvents in the top coat work on the layer underneath if too heavy.
Words Spoken by the first human to set foot on Mars... "Now What?"

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2019, 06:42:24 AM »
Seems like a too heavy spray, Unfortunately hard to control if using brush or rattle can. To avoid this kind of thing light almost dry spray coats can avoid this type of thing. There was an issue between on the last coat and the layer underneath. Which can happen if the coat is too heavy, no matter how long the base drys. The solvents in the top coat work on the layer underneath if too heavy.
You are right.  It was a too thick coat on the nose.  I was able to duplicate it and stop it from happening by just controlling the spray.  Live and learn.

Thanks - Ken
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2019, 10:19:23 AM »
Keith,

Are you the guy that built a NATS winning Warbird at 42" and the model weighed 82 ounces?

  Yes, Colonel Keith Trostle, USAF (ret), did in fact build an airplane along those line - and he also won the CL Scale National Championship with it. Along with a different warbird, with which he won a CL Precision Aerobatics National Championship and the Jim Walker Trophy. In his spare time, he also managed to form PAMPA, be the chief financial administrator on one of the most critical and expensive Air Force satellite programs ever conceived (far more than an aircraft carrier or nuclear missile submarine) and become one of the most respected individuals involved with stunt throughout the world. He is a master modeler in every sense of the word, not to mention one of the finest gentlemen with which I have had the fortune to meet, and considered that way by nearly everyone.

    Avaiojet, on the other hand, is a ridiculous and obvious internet troll, possessing the charm and grace of a genital wart,  who builds crappy unflyable airplanes festooned with stickers until they look like a particularly vulgar Route 66 billboard, and then attempts to sell them on eBay. He also tries to insert himself into every discussion, not to help, but to draw attention to himself.

     How's that for an assessment of the relative merits of these two individuals?

     Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2019, 10:28:10 AM »
Attached is something I did not expect.  ~^    This is Rustoleum over Z-Poxy I let cure nearly one month.  It has 2 coats of primer over the Z-Poxy  The Rustoleum is Painters Choice with Primer.  This popped up in 4 places on the nose and cowl.

Obviously I am going to sand it off but what do I do to stop it from just doing it again?

    I understand the temptation to try to use locally-available materials and techniques. I tried that for a very long time, too,  and never found a satisfactory solution. My suggestion is to just bite the bullet, and buy/borrow a conventional spray outfit, and use known-workable paint systems rather than random assemblages of hardware-store stuff. The well-documented workable solutions are:

  dope from start to finish - very fragile and sensitive to application conditions
  dope colors/2-part urethane car clear - bulletproof unless you get a chip
automotive paint systems  (basecoat/clearcoat) - very durable and reliable (designed to be applied all day long by high school dropouts and have the car back to the owner that afternoon)
  Epoxy (KlassKote) and urethane clear - very durable and reliable

  All are "sticker shock" expensive, but how much of your life has been taken off by the problem you had here?

   To fix this issue along these lines, sand it all off, clean off all the old paint with solvent (lacquer thinner) and finish with epoxy instead of Rustoleum.

    Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2019, 10:36:54 AM »
    I understand the temptation to try to use locally-available materials and techniques. I tried that for a very long time, too,  and never found a satisfactory solution. My suggestion is to just bite the bullet, and buy/borrow a conventional spray outfit, and use known-workable paint systems rather than random assemblages of hardware-store stuff. The well-documented workable solutions are:

  dope from start to finish - very fragile and sensitive to application conditions
  dope colors/2-part urethane car clear - bulletproof unless you get a chip
automotive paint systems  (basecoat/clearcoat) - very durable and reliable (designed to be applied all day long by high school dropouts and have the car back to the owner that afternoon)
  Epoxy (KlassKote) and urethane clear - very durable and reliable

  All are "sticker shock" expensive, but how much of your life has been taken off by the problem you had here?

    Brett
Point taken and stored away for future use.  To answer your question, at my billing rate about $4,000 less the cost of the therapy that working on these toys gives even when it is a "do over".  However, it is flying season and shop time is to be avoided!

Ken
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2019, 10:42:27 AM »
Point taken and stored away for future use.  To answer your question, at my billing rate about $4,000 less the cost of the therapy that working on these toys gives even when it is a "do over".  However, it is flying season and shop time is to be avoided!

   Professional therapy is at least $200 an hour. Stunt can provide the same sort of effect, for only twice the price.

    Brett

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2019, 10:42:46 AM »
Ken, I don't seem to have these issues with monokote.....

Ha! Had to throw in a jab for good measure. I know you'll get it taken care of.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2019, 10:45:27 AM »
 
   Professional therapy is at least $200 an hour. Stunt can provide the same sort of effect, for only twice the price.

    Brett
LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: And now for something completely different...
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2019, 10:47:08 AM »
Ken, I don't seem to have these issues with monokote.....

Ha! Had to throw in a jab for good measure. I know you'll get it taken care of.
There is another issue that I don't have with MonoKote - MY Wife.  ~^

Ken
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If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC


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