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Author Topic: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear  (Read 4256 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« on: October 10, 2012, 02:05:05 PM »
Guys,
I was looking at the available clear coats that I have on the shelf and noticed a PPG acrylic base coat clear that I had used several years ago. This is a simple air dry clear that reduces with normal dope reducer. As I recall it holds up to fuel and oil better than regular Sig clear. I know you need to rub it out but it is much less toxic than the two parts.

Has anyone else used acrylic clear and compared it to two part clear?

Best,            DennisT

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 02:50:51 PM »
Guys,
I was looking at the available clear coats that I have on the shelf and noticed a PPG acrylic base coat clear that I had used several years ago. This is a simple air dry clear that reduces with normal dope reducer. As I recall it holds up to fuel and oil better than regular Sig clear. I know you need to rub it out but it is much less toxic than the two parts.

Has anyone else used acrylic clear and compared it to two part clear?

Best,            DennisT

Hi Dennis,

I used to use the Acrylic Lacquer Clear and still use some colors I have.

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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2012, 10:59:08 AM »
Does the acrylic lacquer clear have much shrinkage?

Best,         DennisT

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2012, 12:31:09 PM »
Does the acrylic lacquer clear have much shrinkage?

Best,         DennisT

Not too much but if you wish to buff it, give it a week or two to cure all the way. I have buffed planes the next day but it will not hold the shine as well.

Derek

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2012, 12:32:31 PM »
I use Dupont 480S, it is a pre mixed acrylic lacquer. Pour it out of the can and spray. I also comes in an aerosol can now...

Derek

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2012, 10:43:20 AM »
Derek,
In your experience does the acrylic hold up to say raw 15% nitro fuel or do you need to top coat with "death" paint?

Best,    DennisT

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2012, 11:05:50 AM »
Derek,
In your experience does the acrylic hold up to say raw 15% nitro fuel or do you need to top coat with "death" paint?

Best,    DennisT

Yes and no. If you get some on the paint and QUICKLY remove it, no problem. If you let it sit on the paint (usually when you are unaware of it) it will eat through the clear. It can be buffed back out and waxing your plane will help protect it. It is not like the death paint where you can give the plane a bath in 20% nitro...

Derek

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2012, 11:34:41 AM »
I like Death Paint!
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2012, 11:41:10 AM »
I like Death Paint!

What exactly is the death paint? What did you use on yours?

Derek

Eric Viglione

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2012, 12:08:59 PM »
I believe the true death paint is DuPont’s Imron polyurethane enamel that Windy used to shoot in his back yard. I'm sure the EPA/OSHA type people would have all kinds of fun watching him paint his fingertips in the vid's with the stuff, but at least he had his back to the wind (Eeek!)

Some have jokingly called all the 2 part catalyzed or acrylic urethane paints death paint also, because they are not good fer ya neither, but no where near as deadly as the Imron polyurethane enamel. Imron is the most dangerous paint of any to spray, what he did was super risky. The paint/catalyst will absorb into the human body through skin and eyes, and once it's in your body, it doesn't leave- it builds up in your blood, bones, liver, lungs, etc.


EricV

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2012, 01:28:12 PM »
I have used PPG DCA 468 clear acrylic lacquer.  It is air-dry stuff, easy to buff out.  It is not at all fuel proof.  It's even soluble in isopropyl alcohol.  If you are careful, you can get it to last for years.  The biggest problem is other people dripping fuel on it or blowing fuel on it when they burp their airplanes in the pits.
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Offline billbyles

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2012, 06:29:26 PM »
I believe the true death paint is DuPont’s Imron polyurethane enamel that Windy used to shoot in his back yard. I'm sure the EPA/OSHA type people would have all kinds of fun watching him paint his fingertips in the vid's with the stuff, but at least he had his back to the wind (Eeek!)

Some have jokingly called all the 2 part catalyzed or acrylic urethane paints death paint also, because they are not good fer ya neither, but no where near as deadly as the Imron polyurethane enamel. Imron is the most dangerous paint of any to spray, what he did was super risky. The paint/catalyst will absorb into the human body through skin and eyes, and once it's in your body, it doesn't leave- it builds up in your blood, bones, liver, lungs, etc.


EricV

Imron polyurethane is no more toxic than any of the other two-part polyurethanes using the polyisocyanate catalyst hardeners.  Imron was just the most popular & high-profile of the then-popular polys.  Imron was easy to apply & get pretty good results without being a painting "expert".  If you knew the process Imron could be polished to a high gloss. 

Because Imron was easy to use & readily available and well-known many hobbyists used it for everything from auto restorations to model airplanes, and many of these hobby guys either didn't read the precautionary instructions or considered themselves indestructible, and had health problems that resulted in Imron being labeled "Death Paint". 

Not to fret, however, our "friendly" EPA over the past few years has been helping us to protect us from ourselves resulting in paints that are just as problematic with respect to our health, are much more difficult to apply, and are way more expensive (BUT, have lower VOCs).  Luckily, outside of California, the earlier polys and solvents are generally still available.
Bill Byles
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Eric Viglione

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2012, 02:18:40 PM »
Hi Bill,

Thanks for setting me straight on that... but I still am a little confused. Most of my body shop bud's I talk to make a clear distinction between what they call Imron "a true polyurethane enamel" and what they use today "acrylic urethanes".

I'm no chemist, so forgive my butchering the details, but I thought it had something to do with how the individual chemicals linked to each other in solution that made Imron " a little more dangerous" than the acrylic stuff. I know they still paint industrial stuff like heavy machinery with Imron in some places for its durability.  I don't argue that current acrylics also use isocyanate's and can harm your health too, just that the cocktail is supposedly different and not quite as deadly. (just kills ya slower?) I know it is also contained in open cell foam insulation they spray in new homes (and I just did in my shop attic...) that they claim is safe after a period to clear the air...

I have to say, reading the MDS on Imron (or most ANY urethane paint) is scary when they claim the particles are small enough to get through most organic vapor cartridge type mask and the ONLY really safe way to spray is in a positive pressure outside air type headset. Eeeek!

Thanks in advance for any additional info you can share,

EricV

Offline billbyles

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2012, 10:41:54 PM »
Hi Bill,

Thanks for setting me straight on that... but I still am a little confused. Most of my body shop bud's I talk to make a clear distinction between what they call Imron "a true polyurethane enamel" and what they use today "acrylic urethanes".

I'm no chemist, so forgive my butchering the details, but I thought it had something to do with how the individual chemicals linked to each other in solution that made Imron " a little more dangerous" than the acrylic stuff. I know they still paint industrial stuff like heavy machinery with Imron in some places for its durability.  I don't argue that current acrylics also use isocyanate's and can harm your health too, just that the cocktail is supposedly different and not quite as deadly. (just kills ya slower?) I know it is also contained in open cell foam insulation they spray in new homes (and I just did in my shop attic...) that they claim is safe after a period to clear the air...

I have to say, reading the MDS on Imron (or most ANY urethane paint) is scary when they claim the particles are small enough to get through most organic vapor cartridge type mask and the ONLY really safe way to spray is in a positive pressure outside air type headset. Eeeek!

Thanks in advance for any additional info you can share,

EricV

Acrylic urethanes were my personal favorite (I used the Akzo Nobel "Sikkens Autocryl" system and attended all of their then current schools re: mixing, color matching, application, etc.) as they were the easiest to apply and the results were beautiful as sprayed.  The acrylic urethanes used the polyisocyanate ester catalysts but with a different blend of base resins.  These acrylics were not only easy to apply but were not terribly temperature or humidity sensitive during application.  They were very chemical resistant when cured; curing took about 45 minutes at 140 degrees F or a couple of days at 75 degrees.  At that point you could take a rag dripping wet with MEK and wipe the paint down with no adverse results.  This paint was super fuel-proof on a model.  Acrylic urethanes are no longer allowed in California thanks to the EPA.  The current polys are supposed to be applied with no thinner mixed in the paint (the thinner enhances the flow-out of the finish.)  However, thinners are still being used at times because the results are just too difficult to get without thinner (I didn't say that; pure speculation on my part.)

As far as Imron goes, polyurethanes varied as to whether they were called "true polyurethanes".  A true polyurethane was one that used a catalyst to base ratio of 1:1 such as "Alumagrip".  These 1:1 polys had extremely high gloss, chemically resistant to just about anything short of paint stripper or hydroflouric acid, and had a very high health hazard with respect to the need for full suits with a pressurized hood using supplied air.  They also required more skill to apply.

Imron, on the other hand, was mixed using a 1:3 catalyst to base ratio & while it was considered a polyurethane it did not have quite as much chemical resistance or the "as-sprayed" gloss of the 1:1 paints.  There were also polyurethane paints that used 1:2 & 1:4 catalyst to base ratios.  Imron typically sprayed out with somewhat less (but still looked really nice) as-sprayed gloss than did the so-called "true-polyurethanes" due to the additional filler materials it contained.  The additional filler materials made the paint very easy to spray with little tendency to have "runs".  When Imron was still available I really liked using it.

All of the above paints used the polyisocyanate ester catalysts which were the source of the health hazard.     
Bill Byles
AMA 20913
So. Cal.

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 03:02:29 PM »
I believe the true death paint is DuPont’s Imron polyurethane enamel that Windy used to shoot in his back yard. I'm sure the EPA/OSHA type people would have all kinds of fun watching him paint his fingertips in the vid's with the stuff, but at least he had his back to the wind (Eeek!)

Some have jokingly called all the 2 part catalyzed or acrylic urethane paints death paint also, because they are not good fer ya neither, but no where near as deadly as the Imron polyurethane enamel. Imron is the most dangerous paint of any to spray, was super risky. The paint/catalyst will absorb into the human body through skin and eyes, and once it's in your body, it doesn't leave- it builds up in your blood, bones, liver, lungs, etc.


EricV
DAAAAA!!! THAT MUST BE THE REASON I FEEL SO DEAD RIGHT NOW..from all those years working with those exotic new paint formula's deep in the belleee-of-the WindTunnel model shops. Even worse is when folks would wear their taint'd clothing home with them...when later he or the family would throw those taint'd clothing in the washing machine...PUTTING  THE ENTIRE FAMILY AT RISK! ~^ :X

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« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 03:31:55 PM by Shultzie »
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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2012, 03:24:16 PM »
Imron polyurethane is no more toxic than any of the other two-part polyurethanes using the polyisocyanate catalyst hardeners.  Imron was just the most popular & high-profile of the then-popular polys.  Imron was easy to apply & get pretty good results without being a painting "expert".  If you knew the process Imron could be polished to a high gloss.  

Because Imron was easy to use & readily available and well-known many hobbyists used it for everything from auto restorations to model airplanes, and many of these hobby guys either didn't read the precautionary instructions or considered themselves indestructible, and had health problems that resulted in Imron being labeled "Death Paint".  

Not to fret, however, our "friendly" EPA over the past few years has been helping us to protect us from ourselves resulting in paints that are just as problematic with respect to our health, are much more difficult to apply, and are way more expensive (BUT, have lower VOCs).  Luckily, outside of California, the earlier polys and solvents are generally still available.
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Offline MarcusCordeiro

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2012, 02:01:03 PM »
I'm not a paint specialist, but I do have a friend who does car custom painting and stuff, and he's very good.
He told me to use the two part clear, he said it's the only one that will hold up to anything you might throw over it.
He could have told me that before I sprayed some other clear on one model that literaly had the paint "melt" 'cause of the nitro.
I've only used the 2-part ever since.
Don't forget to wear a mask when you spray...

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2012, 02:33:51 PM »
Marcus,

The days of my spraying of two part clears, I think they are over.  n~

I'm taking my models to the local body shop. I already have it set up!   ;D

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Offline MarcusCordeiro

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2012, 02:50:28 PM »
Marcus,

The days of my spraying of two part clears, I think they are over.  n~

I'm taking my models to the local body shop. I already have it set up!   ;D

Charles

That ain't a bad idea...

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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Acrylic base coat clear vs two part base coat clear
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 06:01:10 PM »
They will spray the primer and colors too. All I have to do is mask.

I'm more interested in the clear coat.

Charles

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