United States FAI F2B Team Selection Contest

[RandySmith]

Greeting Everyone

United States  FAI F2B Team Selection Contest, will be  help in Tulsa OK this  fall, On   Labor Day , Processing  friday, Qualifying Saturday, Finals Sunday  More info will be on the  tulsa website, or from me  or  Russell Honea, who is  the  E.D of the event
The  Tulsa  gang are a great group of  modelers  and  will  do a  FINE job  running  this  selection Contest

Thank you, any questions, RandyAero@msn.com  or  678 407 9376

Regards
Randy Smith

 AMA  FAI F2B Team Selection Committee  Chairman
Dist 5 FAI Rep.

[Dave_Trible]

Thx Randy. Reservations made.

Dave

[Bob Reeves]

Thanks Randy, looking forward to a fun weekend. If anyone has any questions about Tulsa or the flying site just post to this thread and me or one of the other Tulsa guys will get back to you.

[Paul Walker]

Thx Randy. Reservations made.

Dave

I didn,'t see a date stated yet. Did I miss something?

[Bob Reeves]

I didn,'t see a date stated yet. Did I miss something?

Not set in stone quite yet but probably labor day weekend so the last weekend of August running into the 1'st of September.

[Dave_Trible]

I didn,'t see a date stated yet. Did I miss something?

No Paul but it’s a holiday weekend.  The Microtel was filling fast yesterday and I can cancel up to a week or two ahead....... the Microtel is popular and cheap for those who go there regularly.  However there are many others around.  The Catoosa Inn is very nice.

Dave

[James Holford]

No Paul but it’s a holiday weekend.  The Microtel was filling fast yesterday and I can cancel up to a week or two ahead....... the Microtel is popular and cheap for those who go there regularly.  However there are many others around.  The Catoosa Inn is very nice.

Dave

The Microtel is nice. Stayed there last year for the Tulsa Contest.

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[dale gleason]

FYI-
The AMA has rules to insure that contests don't get sanctioned in a manner that they occur on the same date within proximity of one another.  According to the class of the contests, A, AA, AAA, etc, the minimum distances between contests vary.

Also, taken into account is the timeframe the contests have been previously held, a contest can be labeled a "Traditional" meet if it's been held many years, for example.

In addition, the timely manner in which the AMA sanction is granted gets into the mix.

As the CD for the "Labor Day" Dallas contest*,  I've noted the Stunt Team Trials being held in Tulsa (a GREAT venue, by the way) and have contacted AMA to see what happens if a conflict with Team Trials and a "Traditional" contest occurs. The Team Trials are AMA sanctioned. I've not heard back yet, but, I've pored over the rules and there is a sentence I don't fully understand concerning "FAI" contests. AMA is looking at that, too.

Situations such as these are the reason why CDs get the big bucks!

dale g

*FYI: The title for this meet isn't actually "Labor Day Contest", it is the "Charles Ash Memorial/Southwest Model Airplane Championships". It always will be the "Soutwesterns".   Try to get all that on a trophy!

[RandySmith]

I didn,'t see a date stated yet. Did I miss something?

Hi Paul

That is  being worked out NOW  I will post  very soon  when it is  firm

Regards
Randy

[Bob Reeves]

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place... Do we mess with our friends in Dallas or make it inconvenient for those attending the Team Trials. Glad it isn't my decision.

[BillLee]

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place... Do we mess with our friends in Dallas or make it inconvenient for those attending the Team Trials. Glad it isn't my decision.

Bob, this is where the problem lies! The dates being proposed for the team selection are part of the bid, not something "TBDL". Consider the "what if" that two or more bids are submitted: the dates for each bid are often the deciding factor when the bids are voted on for selection

The procedure for making an offer to host a team selection includes the date, location and who will be responsible. The folks making the offer work with the Team Selection Committee(TSC) chairman to work out the wrinkles before it goes public. This SHOULD have been done many months ago.

Regards,

Bill

[dale gleason]

Another FYI- The Dallas Parks Dept. requires the DMAA submit all the contest dates for the year to them each January. They then coordinate the Soccer League tournaments with the model airplane contests so that they don't occur on the same weekends. Once approved, the dates are permanent.

This system has worked well to avoid the traffic jam/gridlock that past soccer tournament/model contest participants endured in years gone by.

Respectfully,

dale g

[frank williams]

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place... Do we mess with our friends in Dallas or make it inconvenient for those attending the Team Trials. Glad it isn't my decision.

Bob it is your decision!
This is the same dilemma that I faced in 2015 and 2017 ..... a Labor Day date for the TT would decimate the traditional Southwesterns in Dallas and severely cut into the field of TT helpers.  That's why I chose the Columbus Day weekend a month later.  It still gives a "three day weekend" and gets clear of the contest conflict.  I would not have held the TT in Houston on the Labor Day weekend.

[Bob Reeves]

Bob, this is where the problem lies! The dates being proposed for the team selection are part of the bid, not something "TBDL". Consider the "what if" that two or more bids are submitted: the dates for each bid are often the deciding factor when the bids are voted on for selection

The procedure for making an offer to host a team selection includes the date, location and who will be responsible. The folks making the offer work with the Team Selection Committee(TSC) chairman to work out the wrinkles before it goes public. This SHOULD have been done many months ago.

Regards,

Bill

Why I sent an email to Colleen at the AMA back in July 2018 asking what specifics we needed to have to put in a bid for the TT. She never answered the email so we have been flying blind. Still feel Tulsa is a perfect location for the TT mainly because it's about as close to the center of the country you can get with a field and crew large enough to handle a big contest.

[James Holford]

Or just have Team Trials the weekend after Dallas?

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[john e. holliday]

Do you guys really think the team trials will impact the Dallas contest?  I would think those that don't have a chance of making the team would attend the Dallas contest.

[Matt Colan]

Do you guys really think the team trials will impact the Dallas contest?  I would think those that don't have a chance of making the team would attend the Dallas contest.

I won’t be flying at the team trials but would like to possibly help depending on what weekend it is. I took off Labor Day weekend because of the Dallas contest when I bid for days off last year. If the contests are on the same weekend I would have to choose either the team trials or go compete at the Dallas contest.

[Ken Culbertson]

Do you guys really think the team trials will impact the Dallas contest?  I would think those that don't have a chance of making the team would attend the Dallas contest.

I think it would seriously impact it BUT, it is more important that we select a team.  It was right for Frank to select Columbus Day.  His only mistake was also scheduling a hurricane the same week.

TT needs a permanent home and time.  It would be nice to have at least one F2B event annually.  Let it select the team every other year. 

[RandySmith]

Bob, this is where the problem lies! The dates being proposed for the team selection are part of the bid, not something "TBDL". Consider the "what if" that two or more bids are submitted: the dates for each bid are often the deciding factor when the bids are voted on for selection

The procedure for making an offer to host a team selection includes the date, location and who will be responsible. The folks making the offer work with the Team Selection Committee(TSC) chairman to work out the wrinkles before it goes public. This SHOULD have been done many months ago.

Regards,

Bill

Bill

Bids go to AMA  , after months  of asking  I still  do not have a bid list from the  AMA, You are right it should be  already done, but I cannot  force  people to do anything
The  TTs  have alway been  labor day weekend  for  decades, Except when moved to TEXAS, and  decided  typical weather  was  TOO bad  to hold it then
I doubt the  TTs  would have any serious  effect on Dallas

Regards
Randy Smith

[RandySmith]

Or just have Team Trials the weekend after Dallas?

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Hi James

logical suggestion, however  I can see  complaints  that  People  stayed home and  did not attend, because  they would be  traveling the very next weekend !

Randy

[James Holford]

Hi James

logical suggestion, however  I can see  complaints  that  People  stayed home and  did not attend, because  they would be  traveling the very next weekend !

Randy

I can see that as well. I just figured people could make the week of if and attend both events. Altho it would be costly.

 If I was already planning on going to Tulsa at the end of September I would go to the TT. Not to fly of course .

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[Bob Reeves]

Do you guys really think the team trials will impact the Dallas contest?  I would think those that don't have a chance of making the team would attend the Dallas contest.

Been wondering the same thing. Mainly see a couple Tulsa guys that might go to the Dallas contest would probably stay in Tulsa to help with the TT. Middle October weather in Tulsa can be a crap shoot.

[Bob Reeves]

Not to get a controversy started...

In 2007 Dallas held the F2C team trials the same weekend as Tulsa's stunt contest, last full weekend in September. This probably resulted in a couple guys staying in Dallas to help with the TT rather than coming to Tulsa to fly stunt. I was very active at that time, may have even been the CD of the Tulsa contest and do not remember anyone in Tulsa raising a big stink over loosing a couple entrants to the Dallas TT.

In my opinion, which is about worthless, the TT should be held in Tulsa on labor day weekend. I can think of a whole bunch of positives to this location and date but only one negative.

[dale gleason]

 It's a rules question, that is all. Contests having the same events are required to be separated by a distance as pointed out in the AMA sanctioning rules. For example, a contest that that had just one event, ie, Racing, would not interfere with a contest that didn't have Racing.

There would be no infraction in that case and both contests would be granted a sanction on the same date.

AMA is the sanctioning body, and I'm confident it will clear this up.

Respectfully,
dale g
l
Addendum: Any dyed-in-the-wool stunt flyer at any level would do well to attend a TT given the opportunity. One doesn't have to compete to observe the best flyers in the Nation coming together to compete at their highest level to determine a US Team to represent US.   dg

[john e. holliday]

The Team Trials Have been held on Labor Day weekend before in different parts of the country with no worry about interfering with other contests.   Those that will or want to be on the team will go/enter.  If I remember right the entry for TT's is a bit more money and I think pre-entry.   Labor Day weekend gives the guys an extra day for travel where weekends means days off from work.  But, let the AMA powers to be decide as to me this is two completely different stunt events.

[frank williams]

I think having an extra day of travel applies more to the local contest attendees.  The TT contestants are generally coming longer distances and are arriving several days, if not a week, in advance.  Controlline contests are not attended like in the past.  Contests now days are really stunt contests with maybe a sport racer or two.  Take out stunt flyers and you lose most of your contest attendance.  Weekend before or after would work.

[peabody]

It baffles me why the TT isn't held immediately after a major contest....the fliers are already there and practiced and some of the judges are qualified to judge both AMA and FAI.

[bob whitney]

I have always apposed attaching a team trials to another contest,  at the nats my partner and I used to fly two to 6 racing and speed events a day for 5 days .by sat I am whipped . then I an expected to give my best for another two days to try and make the F2C team.
 
 now in stunt.over the week  I fly O/T . classic  expert, and PAMPA,then  again  I am supposed to settle down and again give my best for two days at the F2B trials

so then u say don't fly all those events but I go to a contest to fly ,not sit around B/Sing all week

[Ken Culbertson]

I have always apposed attaching a team trials to another contest,  at the nats my partner and I used to fly two to 6 racing and speed events a day for 5 days .by sat I am whipped . then I an expected to give my best for another two days to try and make the F2C team.
 
 now in stunt.over the week  I fly O/T . classic  expert, and PAMPA,then  again  I am supposed to settle down and again give my best for two days at the F2B trials

so then u say don't fly all those events but I go to a contest to fly ,not sit around B/Sing all week

I agree with you 100% on the extra flying.  What I would like to see s a selection process that uses the AMA contest results in some way so that the amount of flying is the same.  I know that there are scores of reasons this wouldn't work at first blush but with some creative thinking most of them could be overcome.  Doug Moon suggested one way to get around the different scoring methods and I am sure that all of the problems could be overcome if we were more inclined to say "what if" then "why not"   IMHO the differences in the pattern are not enough to warrant a separate contest and whomever makes the team has a year to learn how to whip a plane for a lap and keep it level. 

Our biggest problem is that, for whatever reason, is our unwillingness to adopt the F2B format.


Ken

[RandySmith]

I think having an extra day of travel applies more to the local contest attendees.  The TT contestants are generally coming longer distances and are arriving several days, if not a week, in advance.  Controlline contests are not attended like in the past.  Contests now days are really stunt contests with maybe a sport racer or two.  Take out stunt flyers and you lose most of your contest attendance.  Weekend before or after would work.

It is not  just an extra travel day.  The  important part is it is  an extra  RAIN. or Bad weather day, So it helps greatly if rain occurs, This is a very important contest  and  it must be  flown to get on the Team. AMA will NOT allow  appointing  pilots  to the  TeaM,
They  also will  NOT allow  the pilots  to be picked from how they perform at the  NATs  or  any other contest.
This is  not  a   stunt contest, it is a  FAI  PA contest  using  FAI rules, FAI scoring system, and  ALL FAI  rules and procedures that we can . The  AMA has a  book dedicated  to  HOW  to run this type contest, and the feel the closest we can come to running  the contest as they do in the  World Champs,  The better  prepared the pilot;s  will be

Having the  Team Trials  after  the NATs  is also a  NO GO, there is  not  time that could be allotted  to us  for running a  Team Trials  after

Randy

[Bob Reeves]

It is not  just an extra travel day.  The  important part is it is  an extra  RAIN. or Bad weather day, So it helps greatly if rain occurs, This is a very important contest  and  it must be  flown to get on the Team. AMA will NOT allow  appointing  pilots  to the  TeaM,
They  also will  NOT allow  the pilots  to be picked from how they perform at the  NATs  or  any other contest.
This is  not  a   stunt contest, it is a  FAI  PA contest  using  FAI rules, FAI scoring system, and  ALL FAI  rules and procedures that we can . The  AMA has a  book dedicated  to  HOW  to run this type contest, and the feel the closest we can come to running  the contest as they do in the  World Champs,  The better  prepared the pilot;s  will be

Having the  Team Trials  after  the NATs  is also a  NO GO, there is  not  time that could be allotted  to us  for running a  Team Trials  after

Randy

Well said and why I'm not so sure it actually interferes with an AMA stunt contest regardless of the location.

[Ken Culbertson]

If it is going to be like building the Wall to get things changed then maybe we should just focus on things like getting the sanction before all of the Tulsa hotel rooms and airline seats are booked for the holiday.  If this thing is so set in stone then why is there still no sanction?

Just out of curiosity, is it the AMA or the FAI that dictates our selection process?  If it is the AMA then WE are the AMA and we can change it.  If we don't want to then we must be overall happy with the way it is.  But, with only one bid I doubt that is the case.  What if that bid cannot be accepted without breaking some of the rules which is what I suspect is going on.  What then?

Ken

[Howard Rush]

Just out of curiosity, is it the AMA or the FAI that dictates our selection process?  If it is the AMA then WE are the AMA and we can change it.  If we don't want to then we must be overall happy with the way it is. 

It's the AMA.  We could change it, but it works well, so we don't.

But, with only one bid I doubt that is the case.  What if that bid cannot be accepted without breaking some of the rules which is what I suspect is going on.  What then?

If you don't know anything about the selection process, how do you justify suspecting rules are being broken?

[Howard Rush]

I agree with you 100% on the extra flying.  What I would like to see s a selection process that uses the AMA contest results in some way so that the amount of flying is the same.  I know that there are scores of reasons this wouldn't work at first blush but with some creative thinking most of them could be overcome.  Doug Moon suggested one way to get around the different scoring methods and I am sure that all of the problems could be overcome if we were more inclined to say "what if" then "why not"   IMHO the differences in the pattern are not enough to warrant a separate contest and whomever makes the team has a year to learn how to whip a plane for a lap and keep it level. 

At the highest level, people don't even use the same airplanes for AMA and FAI.  There is no advantage in FAI to use an airplane you've built yourself, for example.    Another example: I asked a former team member why he was not using Igor's nonlinear flap mechanism in his new airplane.  "Because I no longer fly FAI," was his answer.  He didn't want to optimize his airplane for square eights and triangles.  Lots of folks take their best-flying planes to the team trials, rather than the pretty ones they take to the Nats.  In my case, I don't have many airplanes, so I just use different TUT software for the two events.

This reminds me of a story.  During WW2, an American pilot escaped capture by the Germans and was hidden by the French underground.  One night the disguised American went to dinner with his French pals in the back of a smoky, dimly lit cafe.  The Germans burst into the cafe and immediately identified the lone American.  "How could you tell he was American," someone asked.  "Simple," said the German officer.  "He put in an extra lap before his overhead eights." 

[Dave_Trible]

You know, they could have the World Cup and the Super Bowl at the same time.  It would save a lot of time and effort.  It's all football isn't it?

Dave

[Ken Culbertson]

It's the AMA.  We could change it, but it works well, so we don't.

If you don't know anything about the selection process, how do you justify suspecting rules are being broken?

I was referring to the rules governing the granting of sanctions.  The Dallas contest meets all three requirements (maybe more but it has been 30+ years since I applied for a sanction) to preclude granting a sanction to Tulsa and I think that is what is holding up the process - the date.   

I am not, and I repeat not, arguing that Tulsa should not host the trials, even if it is on Labor Day.  What I am arguing is that we wouldn't even be having this discussion if the system worked as intended.  You now have two clubs who are traditionally very supportive of each other not knowing for sure what is going to happen.  I don't call that working well.

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

At the highest level, people don't even use the same airplanes for AMA and FAI.  There is no advantage in FAI to use an airplane you've built yourself, for example. .....

These are all valid reasons that I fully recognize.  Part of why this has evolved from a discussion to an argument is that my central argument has been missed.  How we select a team needs to be looked at in total.  There are only a select few fliers that have both the ability and the skill necessary to be on the world team.  We currently look at the skill and hope for the ability instead of selecting from among those that have the ability.  By ability I mean the resources and commitment.   If we do that first then let that group shape the selection process then many of the problems we have go away.    If the intent of the selection process is to produce the best we have to offer then we need to look at it from the top down, not the bottom up.  Is this impossible - yes.  Will I stop hoping for it - no.

[Howard Rush]

These are all valid reasons that I fully recognize.  Part of why this has evolved from a discussion to an argument is that my central argument has been missed.  How we select a team needs to be looked at in total.  There are only a select few fliers that have both the ability and the skill necessary to be on the world team.  We currently look at the skill and hope for the ability instead of selecting from among those that have the ability.  By ability I mean the resources and commitment.   If we do that first then let that group shape the selection process then many of the problems we have go away.    If the intent of the selection process is to produce the best we have to offer then we need to look at it from the top down, not the bottom up.  Is this impossible - yes.  Will I stop hoping for it - no.

That’s an interesting thought.  I’m on the combat team selection committee. I once proposed that team selection contests be held offshore—Hawaii, maybe. That way you’d test guys’ ability to pack and ship their stuff, too.

[frank williams]

Help me remember here ..... Bob, didn't specify a date when the bid was submitted, is that correct?

[Bob Reeves]

Help me remember here ..... Bob, didn't specify a date when the bid was submitted, is that correct?

No because what I thought I was doing was asking the AMA for what info I needed to submit a formal bid proposal. The problem (if there is a problem) is because the AMA never got back to me and because we were the only submission, my info request turned into a bid.

As of today, the sanction has been submitted to the AMA for labor day weekend.

[frank williams]

All
As I have said previously, part of my view of letting the TT move around the country, more than has been done in recent years, is to open up some visibility of really great PA flying to people who maybe never have the opportunity to see it.  When the TT were in Houston, you didn't notice, but I know the people, there were numerous cl flyers there who had never seen the likes of what they saw.  When we got moved to Dallas last cycle, the wind kept the level of flying down, but there were people present who wouldn't have been there if the contest were in Muncie. 

If the TT conflicts with the Dallas Southwesterns,  it hurts both.  The effort that goes into putting on a large contest is significant, and shouldn't have the wind sucked out of it by overlapping sanctions.  I would propose that the F2B trials be held one week after LaborDay weekend and allow the Dallas contest to have a full contestant draw and also allow those who want to attend the TT in Tulsa as spectator or contestant to do so.
Frank