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Author Topic: A true full fuselage IMITATION KIT is on the way (Thank you Randy and Brett)  (Read 8199 times)

Online Mike Griffin

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After taking in the advice and input from some people that I respect very deeply when it comes to this hobby and especially the designs of PA Stunt Ships, Two of which have posted in this thread already, here is how the full fuselage Imitation will be designed.

We will use Ted's original design of the wing and tail components that have proved to be iconic over the decades.  All moments and numbers of the Imitation will remain the same.

The fuselage will be a complete full bodied built up fuselage shaped just like the profile version with a full nose and enclosed front turtle deck and designed for an inverted engine mount.  If you look at the side view of the Excitation, you will get a good idea of how the fuselage is going to look..  We will also design it with a pipe tunnel for a piped engine.  I you do not want to use a piped engine, that is OK, it will still work for you.  After talking with Eric tonight, we will also include the parts needed to convert it to electric if you so choose.   We will leave the radial mount exclusively to the profile version that was already released. 

Hopefully by next week, Eric will have something drawn up for me to post.

I am told that a full fuselage version of the Imitation has been a long time coming so we are excited about getting this project going and bring you something that many have been asking for a long time.   Just for clarification purposes I will be referring to this kit as the IMITATON PLUS.  My thanks to Randy Cuberly and Brett Buck for their input.

Now, Yall buy some kits...LOL...

Kindest reagards,

Mike 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 06:40:04 PM by Mike Griffin »

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: You asked for it, you got it
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2018, 10:54:01 PM »
Yes, IF it's set up to enclose a PIPE!

Randy Cuberly
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Tucson, AZ

Online Brett Buck

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Re: You asked for it, you got it
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2018, 03:24:08 PM »
Yes, IF it's set up to enclose a PIPE!

  +1 Doing this gives you a kit that can compete at ANY level, including the WC, because the design is still about as good as anyone has come up with. And it will work fine with anything from an OPS40 on up.

    I would also suggest consulting with Mr. Fancher himself, he might have some good ideas on this topic. 

    Brett

   

Online Mike Griffin

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Re: You asked for it, you got it
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2018, 03:55:46 PM »
  +1 Doing this gives you a kit that can compete at ANY level, including the WC, because the design is still about as good as anyone has come up with. And it will work fine with anything from an OPS40 on up.

    I would also suggest consulting with Mr. Fancher himself, he might have some good ideas on this topic. 

    Brett

   

Thank you for the input Brett.  Randy called today and we had a long talk about this.  Just waiting for Eric to call me back to confirm a few things. 

Thank you both for the feedback.

Mike

Online Mike Griffin

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Please refer to my first post in this thread.  I have revised it to reflect what the kit will be.

Thank you,

Mike

Offline Allan Perret

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Mike: Put me down for 2 kits.
And refresh my memory, who was it that encouraged you to kit the Imitation ?
Allan Perret
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Online Mike Griffin

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Mike: Put me down for 2 kits.
And refresh my memory, who was it that encouraged you to kit the Imitation ?
tia

OOOH I dunno...maybe a buddy of mine from Slidell, LA with the initials of AP.  I gotcha down for 2 kits.

Thank you Allan.

Mike

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Good things do indeed happen if you wait long enough!

I certainly agree that consulting with Mr. Fancher would be a good idea and perhaps even some input from the inimitable Mr. David Fitzgerald since he in fact did something very similar FIRST.

I am very pleased!    #^ #^ #^ #^ #^ #^ #^

Thanks Mike and Eric!

Randy Cuberly

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Online Brett Buck

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I would add that the original profile may have been the best ST46 airplane ever built, too, and is legal for Super 70's and Nostalgia 30, too. It would easily build in the upper 40 ounce range with Monokote and paint fuselage, small enough to give decent performance, and the relatively high aspect ratio makes it efficient with power. Slap on an OS46LA, jump in a time machine to 1975 and win every contest for the next 10 years.

    Brett

Offline Ron Varnas

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Hi Mike,

Thanks for the PM re future kit.

Forgot to ask was this the same design which had something like a 3/4" thick stab ? .... or am I on the wrong "Tation train"

RV
RJV Melb. Australia

Online Mike Griffin

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Hi Mike,

Thanks for the PM re future kit.

Forgot to ask was this the same design which had something like a 3/4" thick stab ? .... or am I on the wrong "Tation train"

RV

Hi Ron

The original profile version of the Imitation had a very thick stab shown on the plan but that was modified later on.  When we were consulting with Ted during the period of getting the profile Imitation kit done, It was decided to reduce the thickness to make the stab 3/8" thick and that will carry over with the full fuselage version we will be coming out with.

Mike

Online Mike Griffin

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This is pretty much what the shape of the Imitation Plus full fuselage will look like.


Online Mike Griffin

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Thank you TY.  I have you down for one kit.

Mike

Offline Ron Varnas

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Mike,

Thanks for the update re the 'Stab'.


Put me down for one kit please.

Ron
RJV Melb. Australia

Online Mike Griffin

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Mike,

Thanks for the update re the 'Stab'.


Put me down for one kit please.

Ron

Thank you Ron.  I have you down for a kit.

Mike

Offline TDM

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I love the shape of the fuselage. That racy sleek look is awesome.
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Online Mike Griffin

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I have posted pricing for the IMITATION PLUS full fuselage kit in my GRIFFIN's MODEL SERVICE in the Vendors Corner section. 

Mike

Online Mike Griffin

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The internal structure of the profile Imitation

Offline Ted Fancher

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Hi Ron

The original profile version of the Imitation had a very thick stab shown on the plan but that was modified later on.  When we were consulting with Ted during the period of getting the profile Imitation kit done, It was decided to reduce the thickness to make the stab 3/8" thick and that will carry over with the full fuselage version we will be coming out with.

Mike

FYI,

The original Imitation did, in fact, have a very thick completely airfoiled stab/elevator...likely somewhere in the 15% thickness range.  Over several years I experimented with various "sections" for tails triggered by Bob Gialdini's comment in a constructions article that stated (appox) "...Remember, the tail is a lifting surface, too and, like the wing, must be thick enough to do it's job...".

The 1986 Nats winning Intimidation was the first of my very thick tails and the Imitation and Excitation were similar but slightly thinner sections.  these were followed up by test ships with tails as thin as 1/8" on a variety of competitive stunters that "may" have nudged the VSC rule book as they showed up on airplanes flown at that event.  The test on such thin sections was driven in part by the very successful box stock Veco Chief I flew at two back to back VSCs which came stock with such a thin section.

The bottom line was that, although I continue to believe the original Imitation was the best design I've ever done in terms of ease of reproducing competitive patterns, I didn't feet its excellence could be attributed to any measureable degree to the thick section (The Intimidation mentioned above, for instance, was "not" my favorite airplane despite its respectable competitive record).  In discussions with Mike re his kit I suggested and he agreed that the difficulty for less than expert modelers to reproduce the thick airfoiled stab accurately any benefit that might have resulted was, in our opinions, not worth the risk of poorly contoured tails in those modelers' aircraft.  I did suggest, however, that the thickness of the stab/elev be increased to 3/8" and retain a "semi" airfoiled section via tapered elevators and a leading edge preferably shaped in "airfoil" fashion with a sharp entry (don't recall for sure whether that last was implemented in the kit).

Further FWIW comments.  I believe the primary design enhancements that resulted in a successful (and still entirely competitive) design were the longer tail moment arm, larger tail area relative to the wing, the capability to utilize further aft CGs for enhanced maneuverability with less effort and greater stability and the smaller chord flaps (to reduce hinge loading and negative pitching moments from their deflection and, thus reducing, input effort on the part of the pilot).  Only the latter, narrow chord flaps, do I remotely deem to be hatched in my own noggin.  Pretty hard to declare oneself an innovative designer when you can pick up my old Veco Chief and fly competitive patterns 65 or so years later!

Hmmmm.  As I look at that Chief hanging on the wall of my office right now I note that the flap chord has a lot more in common with the Imitation than it does with the chord on much more modern "big flaps for the lift needed for tight corners" designs.

Scratch the hatched in my own noggin comment above. n1 n1 mw~ mw~

Ted

Addendum: RE the change in the stab/elev thickness addressed above.  The increase to 3/8" overall thickness I suggested to Mike was solely due to concerns over a stab/elev of that much area having only modest resistance to flexing under load...especially if covered with monokote or similar.  The additional thickness of the ultimate stab was almost exclusively aimed at remedying that potential.  The thicker airfoil shape of the original wasn't of much concern to me due to the curved sections and warren trussing.  Also worth noting was my continued (then and now) preference for reduced elevator chord re the stab (55/45-60/40) to minimize control loading.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 12:07:47 PM by Ted Fancher »

Online Mike Griffin

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Thank you Ted for the clarification and explaining the dynamics behind the design.  I have had nothing but positive feedback about this project and I appreciate your support and the support of everyone on this forum.  Without all of this, the production of this kit would have never happened.

Mike

Offline Ron Varnas

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Mike,

Just my 2 cents worth, as the "Imitation Plus" will be a revised version of the original and as already stated the stab thickness on the future kits
will be reduced, any possibility of the vertical stab shape might also to be revised / modernised into a more contemporary outline or it'd be builders
choice ?

Example pictured has excellent business like lines , well suited to the fuse. profile.

Ron
RJV Melb. Australia

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Well, personally I will use David's configuration for the rudder because I personally want an adjustable rudder, but I don't really believe that's an issue for the kit.  It's a very easy modification to use the rudder shape of your choice.  I do however think that at least a close approximation of the fin and rudder area should be maintained to insure design integrity.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Ron Varnas

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I'm not an aerodynamicist on the effects of changing a vertical stabs outline (profile) &  how it would affect its design integrity,
but point well taken.
RJV Melb. Australia

Online Brent Williams

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    • Fancher Handles - Presented by Brent Williams

Example pictured has excellent business like lines , well suited to the fuse. profile.

Ron

If that ThunderGazer look is what you want, it's pretty easy to kit bash a vertical fin.  Or, purchase, as it is readily available as the RSM ThunderGazer kit, Part # TG:  https://www.rsmdistribution.com/kit-detail.php?pn=tg&src=kits-newest.php#

I would say keep the look of the Imitation Plus more in line with the look of original Imitation/Excitation. 
Paul Pomposo's Imitation V and Randy Powell's Deviation are great looking, full body planes that use that aggressive Imitation styling to very good affect.
 




Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Offline Ron Varnas

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Fairly radical approach purchasing a T-G kit for the sake of the vertical fin profile  :-\the more rational approach would be to kit bash the vertical fin (called builders choice),
just for the record the Imitation Plus kit already has changes from the original "design" incorporating a full nose fuze & reduced thickness stab, don't think a change in the profile of the vertical stab would be seriously deviating from the original concept on top of the changes already covered.
RJV Melb. Australia

Offline john e. holliday

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Any kit on the market can be kit bashed.  It s up to the person building the kit what he/she wants to do.  Just remember to not stray too far from the parameters.  Look at the poor Nobler how many variations and been made and called by another name. D>K
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Online Mike Griffin

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The Imitation Plus kit will be produced with the same shape vertical fin as the original Imitation that Ted designed.  The builder can modify the vertical fin to suit his own taste.  The whole point of doing the Imitation plus was to produce a full body version of the original Imitation keeping the numbers and moments as close to the original as humanly possible. 

Mike

Online Mike Griffin

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Eric Rule should have a CAD representation of the fuselage done by next week sometime of the built up Imitation fuselage and I will post it just as soon as it comes out.  He is working on it as we speak.  By the way, just FYI, it was not a simple matter of overlaying the Thundergazer or Trivial Pursuit fuselage over the Imitation and just adjusting the position of the wing saddle.  We took a look at that and they are NOT the same.  Again, as we transition the profile Imitation over to full fuselage, we are being very meticulous to make sure we do not change the critical design factors that makes this model fly so well. 

Mike

Online Mike Griffin

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All pricing information and details for the Imitation Plus built up fuselage kit is now in my Vendors Corner section, GRIFFIN'S MODEL SERVICE.

Thank you

Mike

Offline Ted Fancher

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Deleted by the author,  Ted, who couldn't find a way to erase the posts without infringing on previous posts by others. Sorry for the inconvenience to all.  Seemed like a good idea at the time, but.......

Ted
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 04:38:21 PM by Ted Fancher »

Offline M Spencer

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Is this Desperation , or Conbobulation !

 VD~    S?P   H^^

Exhaltation . I looked up the later above . It actually exists and is an appropriation .  :-\



I think we all find Ted's posts intresting & informative , the Built up fuse previous must be one of the sleekest looking around ,
and coherant .

Offline M Spencer

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Theres even a Twinitation .



file:///C:/Users/Patrons/Downloads/SN_Magazine_Jan_Feb_2013.pdf

« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 07:42:12 PM by Air Ministry . »

Online Brett Buck

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  I have flown both of those airplanes. The original still exists and may still be flyable, it was *vastly better* and as Ted says, was dead easy to fly well with nearly no practice. It completely reset our standards for how stunt planes could fly and for the most part, we have spent the last 40 +years trying to replicate similar performance with other airplanes. With varying degrees of success.

    I note it was also rather heavy by the standards of the day - 56-57 ounces with the ST46, while most people would have screamed "52 ounces MAX"! Not a problem, it could not be out-turned by any competitive airplane at the time. Ted used to fly entire patterns about half-sized.

    The twin pulls much harder than the original with the ST46 or 40VF, but otherwise, even a bit out of trim, flew very nicely. 2 25LA ABC. The finish on this airplane has to be seen in person to be believed - extraordinary even by the exceptionally high local standards. The builder (and pilot in this picture) is Bob Duncan.

    Brett

Offline Dennis Toth

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I know this is an old thread but Brett brings up some points that sparked a question. We've had discussions on this forum about the "numbers" and for the most part agree that current day standard design flows from Ted's Initation design. Since as Brett said it was on the high side for wing load, profile fuse, RC nylon motor mount, etc... And with all that it had superior performance that has been sought after since. So what is the difference? You can easily duplicate the numbers, Ted's article gives a chart that lays them out, you can improve the engine mount with a full fuse, you can improve the weight as Brett pointed out and several have done this.

But what is the difference? One thing that doesn't get much discussion is the round bellcrank. This is one of those ideas that makes a lot of sense but since the standard old simple bellcrank works particularly the current 4" approach it seems the round approach was just to much work and got lost is stunt history. Is this the thing that makes the ship so comfortable, repeatable and  steady? Maybe Ted, Brett and others can comment on its design, development and who produced it and where it might have been improved.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dan McEntee

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    Type at you later,
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Online Brett Buck

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We've had discussions on this forum about the "numbers" and for the most part agree that current day standard design flows from Ted's Initation design.

    I would hasten to clarify that when I refer to "our", I mean the locals - Ted, David, and I, and other like-minded individuals. Not *Everybody*, and I am sure that those with other design traditions would object greatly to expanding it to,  or dismissing, their separate efforts. Obviously, we think Ted got it right and are trying to expand on what he did and learn along the same lines. But there are other groups doing the same with their design traditions, and they are just as happy with theirs as we are with ours.

Quote
But what is the difference? One thing that doesn't get much discussion is the round bellcrank. This is one of those ideas that makes a lot of sense but since the standard old simple bellcrank works particularly the current 4" approach it seems the round approach was just to much work and got lost is stunt history. Is this the thing that makes the ship so comfortable, repeatable and  steady? Maybe Ted, Brett and others can comment on its design, development and who produced it and where it might have been improved.


   Later. I have to go get my car smogged. Ted's were made by John Shwickrath and the problem was that the bearing wore out and allowed the bellcrank to tilt. This wouldn't have been a problem with a traditional pushrod, but it also used ball links (the first time they appeared on stunt plane plans), it also caused what amounted to slop between the bellcrank and flap, and caused *severe* hunting.

     First time I flew one of Ted's airplanes was the 86 NATs winner, which looked pretty good from the outside. When I flew it, it was hunting so severely that it was not only hunting in level flight, it was doing it in any square maneuver, with maybe 3 swings per square loop leg. That's when I knew that Ted Fancher had flying skills far beyond the norm, because you could barely even detect a problem when he flew it.

    The solution was to cut it out, replace with a conventional bellcrank, which it still had the last time I saw it a few years ago, and it flies very well.

      Brett

Online Mike Griffin

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Eric Rule and I had preliminary conversations with Ted before I ever released the Imitation kit.  One of the things we discussed was the round bellcrank and Ted explained what the original intent of using it was but recommended that we just draw it with a conventional 4" bellcrank.  The full fuselage version never got much past the test build stage.  I honestly cannot remember if I ever released a full fuselage version of it. 

Mike

Online Larry Wong

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If that ThunderGazer look is what you want, it's pretty easy to kit bash a vertical fin.  Or, purchase, as it is readily available as the RSM ThunderGazer kit, Part # TG:  https://www.rsmdistribution.com/kit-detail.php?pn=tg&src=kits-newest.php#

I would say keep the look of the Imitation Plus more in line with the look of original Imitation/Excitation. 
Paul Pomposo's Imitation V and Randy Powell's Deviation are great looking, full body planes that use that aggressive Imitation styling to very good affect.
 




This was my version of the Imitation Plus in 1993 built 2 of them one had a P/A 61 and the other had a P/A UL 40
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 09:30:21 AM by Larry Wong »
Larry

Believing is the Beginning to greatness <><

Online Larry Wong

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This Was The Latest Imitation Plus that was Electric
Larry

Believing is the Beginning to greatness <><

Offline Ted Fancher

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OMG Larry!  What an old fashioned looking stunt ship!  I'm sure your next one will be a grand sartorial improvement...right????

AND ELECTRIC POWER!!!!OMG, WHAT'S COME OVER YOU?

JOKE! JOKE! JOKE!

LUV IT!  BRINGS BACK PLEASANT MEMORIES.

TED

OH...and best thing I can say about wall plug power is that it must save a lot on paper towels!  n1 n1 n1 <= <= <= <=

Online Larry Wong

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OMG Larry!  What an old fashioned looking stunt ship!  I'm sure your next one will be a grand sartorial improvement...right????

AND ELECTRIC POWER!!!!OMG, WHAT'S COME OVER YOU?

JOKE! JOKE! JOKE!

LUV IT!  BRINGS BACK PLEASANT MEMORIES.

TED

OH...and best thing I can say about wall plug power is that it must save a lot on paper towels!  n1 n1 n1 <= <= <= <=.                                                     Thanks Ted  in my opinion the Imitation was the best of  the best . till more power was used then the game was changed to appease the power, this is the best and flys great with any power used .
.                               

Thanks Ted I think this is the best of the best and can be power with any motor/ engine. from P/A 61  or P/A ultra 40 to electric .LA -46 can be great.
Larry

Believing is the Beginning to greatness <><

Offline Steve Helmick

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I'm shocked that nobody has asked if this kit is still available, and for how much dinero at the current rate of inflation.  DK^ Steve
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