Glow Plug Cost

[David_Ruff]

Can someone explain why glo plugs are insanely expensive? 

[Jim Svitko]

Supply and demand.  With electric taking over, and the herd thinning out, not as much demand.  So, not much incentive to make any.

[Ty Marcucci]

The three components of the wire are exceedingly expensive.  Platinum for one. One of the others (Iridium?) goes for something like $1,290 a foot for the wire..Going electric is sounding better every day.

[Jim Svitko]

Rhodium and palladium might be needed to make glow plugs.  Expensive metals.  And, with the catalytic converter thieves, materials become more scarce and more expensive.

[Paul Smith]

Supply and demand.  With electric taking over, and the herd thinning out, not as much demand.  So, not much incentive to make any.

I agree.  The declining volume is the prime reason.
I do not believe that the commodity price of a minimal amount of material is the prime mover.
Also, I suspect that, back in the day, manufacturers were willing to sell plugs at cost to subsidize their engine & kit business.

Finally, I worked for a 75-cent minimum wage and paid 49 cents for a plug.
Now the effective minimum wage is $16 and plugs are still under half of that.

[Paul Wescott]

This is the link provided on the MECOA website to explain the increased pricing on glow plugs.  Looks like rhodium is going down, a bit.

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/rhodium

[Dan Berry]

Can someone explain why red potatoes are a dollar a pound?

[Dan McEntee]

   I don't think supply and demand has much to do with it. The stories I have read say that the same metals in the element are used in other forms of electronics, microchips and such, and other technology pushing the automotive and EV markets. That made the metals in short supply and drove the price through the roof. That would explain it better, I think
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Colin McRae]

I have tried and been using Fireball plugs from Brodak. $5 each. Because of the low cost I was skeptical, but they really have not been a problem and have worked well for me. I use the long-hot plug on Fox, McCoy, and older OS Max. Engines have run fine.

[944_Jim]

Brodak at $5/plug? I need to go check. Thanks!

The regular supply chain cost has me seriously considering diesel or electric. I have a local John Deere dealership...there is the ether. I can get farm kerosene at $6/gal. Oil is cheap and easy to get. Add to that easier fuel-proofing...hmmm.

Not only that, but my last trip to the local race engine shop cost me $7/gal for methanol only a couple of months ago. My source for high nitro low oil glow fuel isn't on my "latest beaten path" anymore (life style change).

What would push me harder would be to find diesel heads for my OS LA-S .15 engines. I know NVEngines used to market diesel heads for their .074s, and I think this would make it possible to use a wider selection of props. Now if I can get a hold of the Norvel seller...if he is still in business.

[frank mccune]

         Hello All:

         I have been using Diesel engines this Summer and have not missed glow engines.

         My flying mate has also brought his Diesel engines out of storage for use. His 1955 era diesels Diesels start very easily and provide perfect flights.  We both agreed that we are too old to start electric flight.l. Lol.

         Fight war, not wars

         Frank

[David_Ruff]

Guys...never did diesel.  However I would consider it.  Now to find engines and study on it.

[Dave Rigotti]

What is the fuel availability for diesel engines?  Can't imagine shipping an ether based product will be easy or cheap?

I think the cost of converting glow engines to diesel would buy more than a few glow plugs, let alone getting the glow fuel many times easier.

There is a reason so few fly diesels this side of the pond.

[944_Jim]

I fly small.

I'm not trying to convert anybody and mentioned it only for consideration. I will say I watched my "buying power" dwindle away over the last thirty months (haven't we all).

I watched Cox glow plugs start creeping up on eBay. Diesel started to drift into my thoughts when I saw MECOA listing three glowheads for $45! Then there is the cost of conversion heads for my little engines...vintage Charlie's and KamTechnik in an attempt to hedge for the day Cox heads are too expensive or hard to find.

I get so excited to fly that I get ahead of myself. You don't want to know how many plugs I've snuffed plugging the glow clip  into my starter panel's 12 volt feed.


Davis Diesel closed when Mr. Davis passed on. Mecoa sports two Cox conversions...cheap, and not so cheap. But the conversions are about the cost of two or three glowheads. Of course, this also incurs the cost of a heavyduty reedie crank. Cox International still offers them.

I've been studying here:
https://adriansmodelaeroengines.com/catalog/main.php?cat_id=72

Ether is said to be decanted from John Deere starter fluid. The rest is common commodity stuff...kerosene or lamp oil, and oil. I haven't found cetane, but I haven't looked yet. That's for my next "I have nothing more important to do" rabbit hole.

I will admit I will be stuffing golf-tees into my 12v feed before my next flying session!

[Steve Helmick]

Jeez, how often do you burn out a glowplug? It's been years since I replaced one because it failed me. I sometimes put in a new one in the Spring, before the first contest, but it's not because it'd burned out.  Steve

[944_Jim]

Six last summer. Two in my Norvel .074s, two in my Babe Bees,. One Medallion (HC head at that). One on my Fox .35.
Two earlier this last spring...one on a Torpedo .19, and once more on the Fox.

Like I mentioned...all "ID-10-T"  errors, not equipment failures.  This will be prevented once I find my vacuum plugs, er, golf tees. They are somewhere in one of the tool chests.

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hello Not only are glow plugs expensive here in New Zealand we can no longer get idle bar plugs the old baffle piston engines like and plug heat choice is limited too. My son Max loves his diesel engines and we burn similar amounts of glow and diesel fuel . With both my sons flying electric is not an option as 3 lots battery packs would cost too much. Gas or petrol usually involves a power loss and batteries but have tried the G5 OS Gas plug but lost 20% power.
Regards Gerald

[Dennis Toth]

Interesting takes on this. Seems we have alternatives but we continue to stick with the old ways. Electric is great but you paid for a few years worth of fuel upfront. If you can settle on a particular size ship and can use the battery packs in several ships it works great. If you build small ships, then a classic, then a full blown PA you can run up a sizable battery tab. The other thing with electric is you need to plan your flying days because you can't just keep the battery packs on continuous charge or they can puff an their done. It kinda takes away just being able go flying when you can just sneak in a few flights. But that's manageable.

The other option is diesel. Now diesel did start to catch on with the Drone Diesel when the other option was ignition. But just as it started to get going the glow plug came out and people could just take their old sparkers and stick a glow plug in it, put in glow fuel (which was not cheap compared to gasoline) but it saved weight and was much more reliable than ignition and not as stinky as the diesel. Also, the glow setups allowed faster speed which back in the day they flew stunt 60 - 70 mph. Most of the popular European diesels were pretty much topped out a 2.5cc (15 cu in) range and out ships were bigger and needed larger power plants. Also, as the variable compression head diesels started to dominate, fuel mix included kerosine which has a lingering aroma that glow fuel didn't have, this also made the US flyers to shy away from the diesel option.

Today PAW makes some larger diesel and they have been used in the British Nats and won. When Tony E won the British Nats he ran the PAW 40 but ran a wide blade 11x7 prop and used the power of the diesel and constant rpm which is similar to electric. To get diesel to be used commercially available that doesn't smell up your cloths or car is one thing that would be needed. Also, you would also need to have a top flyer using them and win a few major events and keep using them for general competitors or sport flyer's to switch.

Best,    DennisT

[bob whitney]

after reading this sort of got tired of looking for a plug everytime i needed one .so rounded up all my glo plugs and should never need to buy another plu. i figure between ,K&B 1Ls,fire balls OS hot ,rossi turbo`s cox .049 and 15`s, and Nelson`s i have over $500 worth of new plugs. who would have thought .RAD

[Dave_Trible]

Interesting takes on this. Seems we have alternatives but we continue to stick with the old ways. Electric is great but you paid for a few years worth of fuel upfront. If you can settle on a particular size ship and can use the battery packs in several ships it works great. If you build small ships, then a classic, then a full blown PA you can run up a sizable battery tab. The other thing with electric is you need to plan your flying days because you can't just keep the battery packs on continuous charge or they can puff an their done. It kinda takes away just being able go flying when you can just sneak in a few flights. But that's manageable.

The other option is diesel. Now diesel did start to catch on with the Drone Diesel when the other option was ignition. But just as it started to get going the glow plug came out and people could just take their old sparkers and stick a glow plug in it, put in glow fuel (which was not cheap compared to gasoline) but it saved weight and was much more reliable than ignition and not as stinky as the diesel. Also, the glow setups allowed faster speed which back in the day they flew stunt 60 - 70 mph. Most of the popular European diesels were pretty much topped out a 2.5cc (15 cu in) range and out ships were bigger and needed larger power plants. Also, as the variable compression head diesels started to dominate, fuel mix included kerosine which has a lingering aroma that glow fuel didn't have, this also made the US flyers to shy away from the diesel option.

Today PAW makes some larger diesel and they have been used in the British Nats and won. When Tony E won the British Nats he ran the PAW 40 but ran a wide blade 11x7 prop and used the power of the diesel and constant rpm which is similar to electric. To get diesel to be used commercially available that doesn't smell up your cloths or car is one thing that would be needed. Also, you would also need to have a top flyer using them and win a few major events and keep using them for general competitors or sport flyer's to switch.

Best,    DennisT

  My son in law likes to play with diesels some.  He has to keep separate clothes in the garage to wear when he does and needs a serious shower too when done.  I grew up in the hobby around them-  Jim Dunkin and Bill Wright were world class team racers.  We all flew on the same circle then in the 60s-early 70s.  They mixed fuel at the field just before flying each time.  They ran in continuous monotone when not bleep, bleep, bleeping.  Sure could pull a lot of weight on very little fuel but I couldn't really imagine them in a high end stunt ship as we use these days-in part because they are creatures that will run at ONE speed only with no vertical power boost.  If glow were really a problem to you I'd think ignition engines with modern electronic components would be a better answer.   If you think they can't,  wonder over to where they are competing in old time and listen to an Anderson Spitfire,  Orwick or Super Champ going through the paces...'white gas', or Coleman fuel and some oil is all you need.   


Dave

[Andre Ming]

The other thing with electric is you need to plan your flying days because you can't just keep the battery packs on continuous charge or they can puff an their done. It kinda takes away just being able go flying when you can just sneak in a few flights. But that's manageable.

And that reared its head as soon as I started flying my first electric R/C airplane. I quickly grew to hate this about electric R/C, as well as the need for several battery packs so you can fly longer before out of juice while at the field. Even trying to charge a pack at the field was a 45+ minute ordeal with a so-called "fast charge" system.

Electrics: Sounded like a great concept, but they have a whole lot more baggage than I initially realized.

Andre

[Dennis Toth]

Dave,
I agree that modern ignition would be very reliable and could reduce flight fuel cost considerably. Some of the OTS ignition ships are impressive but when you look at the year over year numbers of ignition flights at VSC you see some years where they were good but some were they only had a few that actually got in full flights, so the old systems can be problematic another reason glow was so popular you didn't have to work and fiddle with systems to get it to work.

Diesel on the other hand was reliable and with the Drone if you ran it as the factory instructed on Drone fuel were very reliable. People that tried to use fuel with kero had trouble because the fixed compression diesels need lots of ether. The Drone mix was 75/25 ether/ 25 SAE Mineral Oil (you need to use the mineral oil as it calms down the ether to run smooth, castor don't do this). This blend also runs much cooler than kero blends which allowed the Drone to have less cooling fin area which reduced weight. This was also a problem when running the Drones on kero fuels, they would run but would get hot. They were able to trim the compression by adding or removing head gaskets and to a small degree adjust the amount of oil going up to 30% to increase the compression in cooler temps.

I have been playing with the diesels and trying to develop a simple fuel that does not leave the lingering aroma. It seems that using straight starter fluid mixed with 25% mineral oil will work for a sport fuel, others have done it and I think you could do a little mod to the starter fluid cap to allow just hooking on a tube and have it fill a mixing container then be ready to fill the tank and fly.

Best,   DennisT

[Jim Kraft]

  It seems like a step backwards, but ignition with the modern electronic switching is a viable option in my opinion. I run pump gas or stove fuel which is white gas, Crown brand is the cheapest I have found. I also run Walmart Super Tech non synthetic 2 stroke oil.

  Run time is a problem as it only takes half the amount for the same time. A small clock work or electronic timer would take care of that. As far as power and consistent running, they do very well flying a steady 2 stroke, 4 stroke, or a 2-4 break. The spark keeps the engines from running away from over heating.

My Taurus, with an Orwick with 850 sq" and 68' span on 65' lines, and a 13x6 prop needs the timer retarded some from full to keep the plane flying at over 5 second laps. Still has plenty of power for all the maneuvers. In fact on a fairly calm day it will do all of the old time pattern with ease at 6 second laps with the timer just before tdc. It fly's about the same with an Anderson Spitfire.

Fuel is available most everywhere, and it only takes half as much. And the cost is way way less. It would be interesting to take an engine like a Ro Jet and convert it to spark ignition to experment.

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hello I wonder if this could be a viable low cost 'gas" engine for stunt?


"GF-9 (9cc/.55c.i.)

Glow Ignition Gasoline Engine


NO OnBoard Ignition Required. Runs like a glow engine, but uses gasoline."

SH GF9 9cc Side Exhaust RC Remote Control Airplane Gasoline 2-Stroke Gas Engine:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/394021188388?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=fNXvRiTaRNC&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=TdElgXLITva&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Regards Gerald

[Dave_Trible]

  It seems like a step backwards, but ignition with the modern electronic switching is a viable option in my opinion. I run pump gas or stove fuel which is white gas, Crown brand is the cheapest I have found. I also run Walmart Super Tech non synthetic 2 stroke oil.

  Run time is a problem as it only takes half the amount for the same time. A small clock work or electronic timer would take care of that. As far as power and consistent running, they do very well flying a steady 2 stroke, 4 stroke, or a 2-4 break. The spark keeps the engines from running away from over heating.

My Taurus, with an Orwick with 850 sq" and 68' span on 65' lines, and a 13x6 prop needs the timer retarded some from full to keep the plane flying at over 5 second laps. Still has plenty of power for all the maneuvers. In fact on a fairly calm day it will do all of the old time pattern with ease at 6 second laps with the timer just before tdc. It fly's about the same with an Anderson Spitfire.

Fuel is available most everywhere, and it only takes half as much. And the cost is way way less. It would be interesting to take an engine like a Ro Jet and convert it to spark ignition to experment.

Hi Jim!  +1.  Hall affect sensors?  I eyeballed something on a modern ignition engine from Canada I think.  Their gadget was too large and I couldn't see how it would adapt.

Dave

[Dave Harmon]

The Hall effect sensor could be built into the backplate like the YS CDI engines are.
These have been available for years and they work great!

[Jim Kraft]

 I agree Dave. But using a hall effect transistor and magnets instead of the points condenser would eliminate that part. Then a coil and 2 AA nicads with a switching transistor and a coil would amount to a few ounces. 3 AA's works better, but I have flow on 2 many times. At the size of most competition planes I would not think a few ounces would make that much difference. It is a trade off for sure.

I use to fly a lot. I have flown my ignition planes all after noon on a single charge of the batteries. Floyd uses Lipo batteries which also save more weight.

I do not think power would be a problem. An Orwick or Spitfire has more usable power than I can use. And the spark timing is adjustable but the ignition is constant from beginning to end.

The only real advantage is in the cost of fuel. The cost of ignition mix is nothing compared to the cost of glow fuel now days. The hobby shop in Salina use to order fuel for me so I did not have to pay shipping cost as he ordered in large lots and ordered what ever we wanted.

They closed down a few years ago. The owner sold the shop to another guy, and He never made it work and closed up. So, if I want fuel I have to order it and pay shipping cost. Before I quit flying altogether, I flew nothing but ignition. Mostly trouble free.

[Dave_Trible]

I'm good for a long while with my glow engines and supply of plugs.  Since the price of metals has come down some I hope someone will make more good plugs but who knows. Even if they do the price won't drop much.  I buy whatever-whenever.   Got the last of the Sig plugs Brodak had the other day.   They still use a lot of them in RC cars.  There are some that can be had pretty cheap from China etc., but my experience with those is very low quality-many bad right from the package.  It would be plugs I think that might drive the motivation for someone to develop the ignition engine system to fruition.  I know, I know,  electric, electric...just not the same to me-can't get excited about it plus it's not cheap to get entirely retro-fitted and I still don't want to live with the batteries.....

Dave

[Jim Svitko]

As I see it, there are multiple factors at work here regarding the price of glow plugs.  Inflation affects everything so the price of the necessary materials will show up in the cost of a glow plug.  How much of a factor is it?  I have no idea since I do not know how much of those metals are needed for a glow plug.

With battery technology improving, many are going that route.  I can see why.  Although nothing is without problems, the electrics have advantages.  At least, to some of us.  I have enough engines and glow plugs to last me (I hope) so I will continue using them.  Maybe one day I will be forced to go electric due to unavailability of fuel components and engine parts.

Glow engines are still available, if you get lucky in a web search or an estate sale.  I found a few that way.  If they are not being made anymore, better get them while you can.

The one factor that, in my opinion, is driving this is that our hobby is soon to be on the endangered species list, if not already.  There are not as many of us in this hobby, and I am not seeing enough newbies to replace those who have left us.

Who is making glow engines these days?  Dub Jett can do it, if you want one.  Stalker?  I do not think they are able to produce any, along with those who made the Brodak 40.  OS, Enya, etc?  If nobody is producing engines, and with the shift to electric, I do not see any profit in making and selling glow plugs for model aircraft engines.

[Reptoid]

As I see it, there are multiple factors at work here regarding the price of glow plugs.  Inflation affects everything so the price of the necessary materials will show up in the cost of a glow plug.  How much of a factor is it?  I have no idea since I do not know how much of those metals are needed for a glow plug.

With battery technology improving, many are going that route.  I can see why.  Although nothing is without problems, the electrics have advantages.  At least, to some of us.  I have enough engines and glow plugs to last me (I hope) so I will continue using them.  Maybe one day I will be forced to go electric due to unavailability of fuel components and engine parts.

Glow engines are still available, if you get lucky in a web search or an estate sale.  I found a few that way.  If they are not being made anymore, better get them while you can.

The one factor that, in my opinion, is driving this is that our hobby is soon to be on the endangered species list, if not already.  There are not as many of us in this hobby, and I am not seeing enough newbies to replace those who have left us.

Who is making glow engines these days?  Dub Jett can do it, if you want one.  Stalker?  I do not think they are able to produce any, along with those who made the Brodak 40.  OS, Enya, etc?  If nobody is producing engines, and with the shift to electric, I do not see any profit in making and selling glow plugs for model aircraft engines.

     Glow plugs are not going away anytime soon. Glow engine competition is a world wide thing. You can still get any plug you need from Here: https://www.tcaracing.com/en/product-category/glow-plugs/
The #3 std works great for all around stunt engines and they make hotter and colder versions if needed. They also have "turbo" types and "Nelson" types. Prices start around 5 Euros ($5.43). You can also get them from Bill Maywald in the US. You can contact Bill on facebook or in person at most F2D meets in the US

[redout]

Brodak at $5/plug? I need to go check. Thanks!

The regular supply chain cost has me seriously considering diesel or electric. I have a local John Deere dealership...there is the ether. I can get farm kerosene at $6/gal. Oil is cheap and easy to get. Add to that easier fuel-proofing...hmmm.

Not only that, but my last trip to the local race engine shop cost me $7/gal for methanol only a couple of months ago. My source for high nitro low oil glow fuel isn't on my "latest beaten path" anymore (life style change).

What would push me harder would be to find diesel heads for my OS LA-S .15 engines. I know NVEngines used to market diesel heads for their .074s, and I think this would make it possible to use a wider selection of props. Now if I can get a hold of the Norvel seller...if he is still in business.

Gavin in the U.K. now advertises that he makes diesel head conversions for glo engines.

https://gcpistonrings.com/

[944_Jim]

Thanks, Redout,

I'll check with them.

[Dave_Trible]

     Glow plugs are not going away anytime soon. Glow engine competition is a world wide thing. You can still get any plug you need from Here: https://www.tcaracing.com/en/product-category/glow-plugs/
The #3 std works great for all around stunt engines and they make hotter and colder versions if needed. They also have "turbo" types and "Nelson" types. Prices start around 5 Euros ($5.43). You can also get them from Bill Maywald in the US. You can contact Bill on facebook or in person at most F2D meets in the US

Thanks Don for this info.  They show so many options but no explanation (in English) of their coding system.  I sent an email to Italy to inquire.  I got a nice reply in english from a lady there.  She explained #1 is super hot and the larger number relates to cooler plugs.  I told her the plugs I have been using and my purpose and she suggested plugs 2,3 or 4.  I will order two or three of each and try them.

Dave

[Andre Ming]

I will order two or three of each and try them.

Dave

And I certainly appreciate the offer to share your experiences.

As for glow plugs, I think I'm "okay" for 2-3 years of flying (especially in view of how little I will be flying)... but I'm always interested in learning of options.

Andre

[Steve Helmick]

Hello I wonder if this could be a viable low cost 'gas" engine for stunt?


"GF-9 (9cc/.55c.i.)

Glow Ignition Gasoline Engine


NO OnBoard Ignition Required. Runs like a glow engine, but uses gasoline."

SH GF9 9cc Side Exhaust RC Remote Control Airplane Gasoline 2-Stroke Gas Engine:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/394021188388?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=fNXvRiTaRNC&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=TdElgXLITva&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Regards Gerald

I believe a few have tested other gas/glow engines, but they reportedly ran into complications, since they have a throttle and perhaps a fuel pump that complicates things significantly. Not all of the throttles are removeable, although the one pictured on the SH GF9 seems to be.

It would be interesting to hear results from anybody trying to use one for CL Stunt (or PA). The casting says "Hecho en Taiwan", which is a good thing, I think. I believe OS and Magnum/ASP also have gas/glow engines. However, there's a big gap between running well enough to fly a sport R/C and running well enough for even semi-serious CL Stunt competition.

I would wonder if a modern spark ignition engine could be coupled with a Igor-ish Gyro thingy that would advance or retard an electronic spark system? I think that would be a more viable competition deal, if compared to the glow/gas engines. Steve

[Dave_Trible]

That engine looks interesting,  but if the object is to get away from glow plugs........fuel isn't really the problem so much and especially if you start mixing your own.  I do think you could make an accelerometer device to advance spark but doubt that would be necessary.  The engines I mentioned cycle fine-just like a glow stunt engine.  I do still intend at some point to experiment with Igor's stuff using something similar to a throttle on glow.  I already have all the stuff, just need to get motivated.  There though I had a special intake venturi made to fit Ro Jetts and operate more like an RC throttle without idle functions. If I were to adapt this to ignition I think I would do that rather than messing with the spark advance.  We are only talking about an up-down range of maybe 500 rpm at most.  I AM considering trying one of my modern airplanes with an Anderson on board using standard ignition......after I get my regular fleet prepared.  Never run out of things to try..

Dave