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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Scott Richlen on February 04, 2017, 05:57:03 AM
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Got this E-mail yesterday. Based on this, I am hereby nominating Frank D for Hero of the Reich Award (with Oak Leaf Clusters):
NVCL members,
Ever since hobby websites have run out of silkspan, I have been on a quest to find a substitute for it since I am a paper and dope kind of guy.
During a check-up at the local military hospital a few months ago I noticed that the exam table paper sure looked a lot like the silkspan I’d been using on all my model aircraft. The doctor thought I was nuts when I asked him if I could take home the 6 foot section I was sitting on. After all, it looked and felt just like silkspan……….the question was, would it act like silkspan? The short answer is, YES IT DOES!!!! I tried out my test piece on a built up stabilizer for my next stunt beast and it went right on damp, took the nitrate dope and shrunk right up when I hit it with a blow dryer. I tried it on bare wood to cover the grain and it works great and leaves a smooth surface.
Now I was ready to find out from the hospital what it was called and where to get more. One of the medics offered to give me a roll but I told him “Son, if I take that we’re both gonna be in a lot of trouble”. I asked him to tell me what it says on the box it comes in and he said, “they only give us the roles”.
I went to the hospital supply office and they tried to help, but all they could tell me was the brand, Medline, and I could get it at Staples. To make a long story short I had to order various types and send them back before I finally found the match. It comes from the Tidi company and it is their top of the line crepe exam table paper, 21 inches wide on a roll 125 feet long…..enough paper to cover the Spruce Goose, and it comes in a carton of 12 rolls.
The paper looks just like the silkspan we get from K&B. It is strong when wet (it’s wet tensile strength is not quite as good as silkspan) but it has good strength none the less (hell, we sit on it on the exam table) and is strong and pliable when laying it on the aircraft. It sticks down with nitrate dope on a doped wood structure no problem. It is thin enough to be worked on compound curves too. When it dries, it comes out tight and smooth, ready for more coats of dope. It has a rough and a smooth side, and has a grain. To give you an example of how it works, a 6 inch strip expands to 6 ½ inches when wetted. Lay that down and it tries to shrink back to size and that makes it tighten up.
I’ll bring some rolls over to Scott’s tomorrow so you can see for yourselves. The rolls are either 60 ft or 125 ft long (I haven’t rolled one out) and are $4 to cover the cost. What a deal. You’ll never have to buy paper for the rest of your life.
Fly Stunt, Frank
So, we'll see this stuff at my shop session this morning. Now, I don't want to get too many of you too excited (considering our age and living on a fixed income, we can't afford to be changing those Depends too often...), but we'll be testing this stuff for durability and etc. over the next few months and report back as the findings come in.
Scott
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Interesting find.
Any idea about actual unfinished vs. finished weight of the stuff?
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I am inclined to believe that all exam room sanitary coverings are not created equal. This would mean that you now get to determine what version, brand, etc is being used.
Seeing that these are pretty reasonably priced per case of 12 (about $50 to $100 depending on type) getting a group together should be easy. Buying one off the physician's office may be more challenging than it sounds though. At 125 or 225 ft per roll it is effectively a lifetime supply.
So more information is needed.
Phil
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Got this E-mail yesterday. Based on this, I am hereby nominating Frank D for Hero of the Reich Award (with Oak Leaf Clusters):
So, we'll see this stuff at my shop session this morning. Now, I don't want to get too many of you too excited (considering our age and living on a fixed income, we can't afford to be changing those Depends too often...), but we'll be testing this stuff for durability and etc. over the next few months and report back as the findings come in.
Scott
So did Frank D buy a case and has some available for sale ?? Sounding like it should be cheap enough for experimentation. I have 6 or 7 different wings I built over the winter that are ready for covering..
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I searched for the tidi brand.. and found some at Quill
http://www.quill.com/tidi-crepe-paper-exam-table-covers-18x125-roll-white/cbs/086888.html?effort_code=901&promoCode=&find_number=32162 (http://www.quill.com/tidi-crepe-paper-exam-table-covers-18x125-roll-white/cbs/086888.html?effort_code=901&promoCode=&find_number=32162)
If this is the same stuff... great prices... and I think they have free shipping too. They list 18" x 125' and 21" x 125' for $33.99 and $39.99.. This one says crepe... they have others that do not mention crepe.. slightly higher...
all of these are for case of 12...
I would love to know if this is the same product
steve
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amazon has it....
https://www.amazon.com/Exam-Table-Paper-Creped-case/dp/B0020MC8EW/?ie=UTF8&qid=1486233024&sr=8-5&keywords=exam+table+paper (https://www.amazon.com/Exam-Table-Paper-Creped-case/dp/B0020MC8EW/?ie=UTF8&qid=1486233024&sr=8-5&keywords=exam+table+paper)
who is going to be first.
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Frank sent me the following on the paper:
Carl,
TIDI company choice crepe exam table paper. Item 541653, model number 916212. Staples has it $45.99 for a carton of 12 rolls (one roll is 21inches by 125 ft).
Frank
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Carl:
Where were you today? Frank left a roll with me to parcel out to the club.
Of course, since you didn't show I had to use yours on my examination table....
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Scott
been without wheels for 2 days. Blazer in the shop for upper and lowerball joints and the drivers side motor mount.
$810.00 later,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I got it back at about 5:30 this afternoon.
Carl C
You going to be home tomorrow at all? Might be able to swing by and pick up teh Cox motor.
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Great find.Please let us know how it works out.
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blank
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Me neither. My doctors always seem to have some kind of parchment-like paper. I thought Frank was nuts when he first mentioned this. Turns out there are a lot of different papers. The stuff he brought over looks like silkspan and he covered his stab (built-up structure) with it and looking at it you'd never know the difference.
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Frank sent me the following on the paper:
Carl,
TIDI company choice crepe exam table paper. Item 541653, model number 916212. Staples has it $45.99 for a carton of 12 rolls (one roll is 21inches by 125 ft).
Frank
On Staples site I see 541653 / 916213 last digit off by 1. Is that it ?
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Is there a grain direction, as with silkspan? ??? Steve
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On Staples site I see 541653 / 916213 last digit off by 1. Is that it ?
I see the 916213 number on the Tidi web site also. I've emailed them about vendors in the St. Louis area. we don't have any Staples stores here. I see their trucks running around and a warehouse near the airport with their trucks, but no retail stores. I don't want to order any on line until I see a sample, or get good confirmation from you guys on it. Ii stopped by the local Office Max and had them check on it, and the stuff they had in their computer system was $177 bucks a 12 roll case! A definite difference!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I may try it when I run out of silkspan. That won't be for a bit.
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You just got me all moist and excited! Please let us know how it pans out. I am a dinosaur and cannot see myself using anything but Tissue over Balsa and Dope. This truly is great news.
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Amazon lists several brands of "standard crepe", so may be similar.
Tidi:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0020MC8EW/ref=ox_sc_mini_detail?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1ECJT9FQ4WMHJ
Avalon:
https://www.amazon.com/Avalon-Papers-617-Table-Standard/dp/B005EK68PC/ref=pd_sim_328_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B005EK68PC&pd_rd_r=D8F9RVP6DNRE94HXTBJM&pd_rd_w=pJocW&pd_rd_wg=CABdv&psc=1&refRID=D8F9RVP6DNRE94HXTBJM
Medline:
https://www.amazon.com/Medline-NON23325-Standard-Crepe-Table/dp/B004GC6KB6/ref=pd_sim_328_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B004GC6KB6&pd_rd_r=D8F9RVP6DNRE94HXTBJM&pd_rd_w=pJocW&pd_rd_wg=CABdv&refRID=D8F9RVP6DNRE94HXTBJM&th=1
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I suppose cuz I dun know--- there needs to be some way to determine OLD silkspan, new formulation, and any or all other commercial products with similar qualities
Weight per sq yard.... dry as bought and after full fill doping
Shrinkage in length and width
Comparative strength wet/dry
Minimum amount of dope to fill the weave
I only ever used the stuff in the kits of old so never need to pester the LHS but was aware of the three weight grads we had access too...hell I can't remember now but thinking something like O--OO- and OOO...I do know I am wrong with this weight description but you get the idea
I suspect the subject (high quality) medical barrier paper may be very similar to the old silk span but what weight may be hard to determine without comparative testing
Academic for me as I tend to like the Tom Morris Polyspan and some of the Kote' iron on plastics, Esaki tissues, and Dharma silks I have be re-learning with
But... I am curious enough to see if this ends up being good stuff to add to the kit of on hand options
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I am inclined to believe that all exam room sanitary coverings are not created equal. This would mean that you now get to determine what version, brand, etc is being used.
Seeing that these are pretty reasonably priced per case of 12 (about $50 to $100 depending on type) getting a group together should be easy. Buying one off the physician's office may be more challenging than it sounds though. At 125 or 225 ft per roll it is effectively a lifetime supply.
So more information is needed.
Phil
I would agree. I have been in a lot of hospitals and doctor's offices over the last year, unfortunately, and I never noticed anything that looked like silkspan. All the pull-down paper covers looked like regular old butcher paper. Which would be fine for drawings but not so good for covering your wing.
Brett
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At $26 for a multi-lifetime (for me, anyhoo) supply, I ordered a case.
Delivery is a week or so and I'll report some specs and speculation.
TIDI Products 981004 Everyday Exam Table Barrier, Crepe Roll, 21" x 125' Size, White (Pack of 12)
Brand Name Tidi
Color WHITE
Item Weight 17.1 pounds
Number of Items 12
Part Number 981004
Style Name roll
UNSPSC Code 60121116
Whaaa? Just looked again and it's gone up $1.50ish since I ordered!
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Go to the Tidi web site and you'll see there there is ALL kinds of this stuff. The product in question is called "choice" and one of three grades of this particular paper. Some are called crepe, some not. Comes in 250 foot rolls also, and can come printed with all sorts of stuff. I have a good supply of the "good stuff" and can wait to see how this shakes out. I have an email into the Tidi company to see if there are any vendors for the specific paper in question in my area so I can maybe check it out in person.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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All the pull-down paper covers looked like regular old butcher paper. Which would be fine for drawings but not so good for covering your wing.
Brett
From my experience, I think that must be the stuff Brodak sells. D>K
Watching this thread with interest, please keep us posted guys.
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Some years ago, one of our seasoned modellers told me that teabag tissue is very much the same stuff as medium weight silkspan. I was looking for a replacement for Polyspan and also some decent tissue to cover the balsa surfaces and I remembered this story. I started searching locally and came up with an import agent for teabag tissue from Germany. Once I found the one with a spec close to medium weight silkspan, I asked nicely for a sample, but I was told that they only have sealed full rolls of about 3 kilometres long. A very nice lady said that she would call me back to see if they could find me a short piece to try. She came back to me and said that their warehouse had a damaged roll and that if I wanted it I could get it for free if I collected it myself. I was there the next day! Only the first few layers had a bump in them so this was an absolute gift!
It has a weight of 16.5 grams per square metre and it works well. I have since given a lot to various modellers if they pop around to get some. That roll weighed about 100 lb. when I got it. I've attached the spec sheet for those that are interested. I'm now using it over thin laminating film like SLC and it paints nicely.
Keith R
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I will be watching this thread closely......please update when it is confirmed.......I have TIDI crepe paper in my cart at Amazon ready to click the order.....This is exciting!!!!
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Hey Scott, that's great news. I am interested in a this. Sure hope the testing comes out positive.
Thanks for the info
Roger
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Some years ago, one of our seasoned modellers told me that teabag tissue is very much the same stuff as medium weight silkspan. Keith R
One of our "seasoned" modelers, Ty Marcucci, related at the club meeting last night that at one time, it was common knowledge that tea bags were the same material. If he had a minor repair to do, he'd get a tea gag and cut it up for the patch.
There's quite a few of us interested if this pans out.
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If it turns out to be good stuff I'll have plenty to spread amongst the club, Bill.
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Thanks, Terry. John brought it up at the club meeting that you were going to be trying some out. It would be nice to find it works out for those old time planes like the Barnstormer. It just doesn't seem right putting a synthetic covering on them.
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Fingers crossed! :)
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Seems to me that John Brodak bought something like 30,000 sheets of Medium last year.....is he out of it?
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I contacted the TIDI Company by email and they are sending me some samples of the part number in question. Should have it by the end of the week. The source for the their product that they sent me is a place in Oklahoma and they list the stuff for 55 bucks a case. I'm anxious to get a sample in my hands.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Delivered and looks right, McKesson 18-1004 Exam Paper Table, Crepe.
Thickness .00225", grain runs lengthwise of roll, *may* have shiny side out.
Super close wt/sq yd = 300 grains, .69 oz, 19.5 grams.
So about Sig GM silkspan weight.
Doping characteristics and filled weight hafta wait 'til I cover something.
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Delivered and looks right, McKesson 18-1004 Exam Paper Table, Crepe.
Thickness .00225", grain runs lengthwise of roll, no shiny side.
Super close wt/sq yd = 300 grains, .69 oz, 19.5 grams.
So between GM and SGM silkspan?
Doping characteristics and filled weight hafta wait 'til I cover something.
Send me some and I will accelerate the testing. I have 6 wings built over the winter ready to cover. Promise full reporting. If you bought a case I will buy roll and pay shipping.
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Email sent, Allen.
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Seems to me that John Brodak bought something like 30,000 sheets of Medium last year.....is he out of it?
Was that the same silkspan that everybody that tried it reported to be horrible and unusable? Just wondering, since you seem to know all about it. H^^ Steve
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Some reported it horrible.....it's the same stuff K&B sold for decades....
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Maybe you meant "K&S"...the folks that sell tubing and sheet metal at the LHS?
I always used SIG silkspan, because our LHS got SIG balsa, fuel, kits and...silkspan. H^^ Steve
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Some reported it horrible.....it's the same stuff K&B sold for decades....
K&S, and it is not the same at all.
Brett
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Who, besides Sig, Peck and Brodak, sell "silkspan" these days and are any of them good substitutes for the old stuff?
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Who, besides Sig, Peck and Brodak, sell "silkspan" these days and are any of them good substitutes for the old stuff?
That question is pretty much the reason and point of this thread. y1
Last I knew Sig was out of their inventory of (medium) silkspan and had no plans to replace the offering. The Brodak medium that I have tried a few times is total crap, to the point that I threw all I had in the garbage. No idea about Peck.
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Here's my playing with it findings from today
bought me an olfa cutter and wacked up 38 yds off the roll ( 25x36x 38 pcs)
dry mounted to an xcaliber wing and pulled fairly tight dry....doped down the edges.....le te and tip......
sprayed with spray bottle water and let shrink....
very little effort was taken to tighten dry and it shrank very tight upon air drying
almost good at tips with few wrinkles...on an xcalibur tip that's good....
one coat of dope and was all perfectly tight with few flaws at tips and overall very taught
second coat of dope and sounds like a drumb .Actually pretty shiny for two coats (full strength)
not thinned dope....the xcalibur has three external spars on the outside at rib hight top and bottom so is a pretty hard test for silkspan along the front of the airfoil...
looks like a duck
feels like a duck
shrinks like a duck
comparing to my K&s and Sig it looks like a GM duck if not a 00 duck....
more playing tomorrow when it warms up a bit....
jim
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Can we get some close-up photos Jim?
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I don't know what you paid for the roll, but if it works you may have a gold mine selling to those that still use it. I know what shows up on the bay gets more than I would pay.
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Doc, I paid $26 & change for a 12 roll case, 21"x125', w/free shipping.
I'm spreading it around to club members.
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Now if you sell that at $1.00 a running foot you should make your money back in no time. I might even try silk span again, but I have 10 running yards of the poly material I'm now using. H^^
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Here's my playing with it findings from today
bought me an olfa cutter and wacked up 38 yds off the roll ( 25x36x 38 pcs)
dry mounted to an xcaliber wing and pulled fairly tight dry....doped down the edges.....le te and tip......
sprayed with spray bottle water and let shrink....
very little effort was taken to tighten dry and it shrank very tight upon air drying
almost good at tips with few wrinkles...on an xcalibur tip that's good....
one coat of dope and was all perfectly tight with few flaws at tips and overall very taught
second coat of dope and sounds like a drumb .Actually pretty shiny for two coats (full strength)
not thinned dope....the xcalibur has three external spars on the outside at rib hight top and bottom so is a pretty hard test for silkspan along the front of the airfoil...
looks like a duck
feels like a duck
shrinks like a duck
comparing to my K&s and Sig it looks like a GM duck if not a 00 duck....
more playing tomorrow when it warms up a bit....
jim
Not sure what you mean by Duck? what is GM duck and 00 duck
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I messed up the quote thing.....LOL.....
What does he mean by DUCK? and what is GM DUCK and 00 DUCK? What is GM silkspan? Is this the TIDI 916213? crepe paper right?
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I messed up the quote thing.....LOL.....
What does he mean by DUCK? and what is GM DUCK and 00 DUCK? What is GM silkspan? Is this the TIDI 916213? crepe paper right?
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
Brett
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If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
Brett
I don't get it......I'll just wait for Jim's report
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I don't get it......I'll just wait for Jim's report
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
If it looks like silkspan, and covers like silkspan, it's silkspan
00, GM and SGM were the designations for original light, medium and heavy silkspan.
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I don't get it......I'll just wait for Jim's report
It a well-known expression. If something shows all the characteristics of a particular thing, it's probably exactly what it seems like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test
Brett
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Sorry Tom just goofing around with words...I have SIG and K&S silkspan of all grades here to make a comparison of O OO OOO GM SGM all weight and thickness standards used for the product for years by all the suppliers.in this case the GM and OO seemed close to this stuff doped with 2 coats.This is the Amazon stuff described in this thread 171004-img 25 inch x 125 ft per roll...12 rolls per case crepe 29.00 delivered. Wayne I'll charge my camera tomorrow and post pictures.I got plenty if anyone wants to try it let me know.
jim
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Who, besides Sig, Peck and Brodak, sell "silkspan" these days and are any of them good substitutes for the old stuff?
Easy Built Models has silkspan. More expensive than the paper being discussed in this thread but from what I can see, it is silkspan, not some lousy substitute. I use it only to cover bare wood since I use other materials if covering open bays.
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Thanks, Jim.
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Easy Built Models has silkspan. More expensive than the paper being discussed in this thread but from what I can see, it is silkspan, not some lousy substitute. I use it only to cover bare wood since I use other materials if covering open bays.
I have some of the EBM silkspan and it is very light....just a little heavier than Jap tissue.
Good for 1/2A Snapper and covering sheeting.
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Sorry Tom just goofing around with words...I have SIG and K&S silkspan of all grades here to make a comparison of O OO OOO GM SGM all weight and thickness standards used for the product for years by all the suppliers.in this case the GM and OO seemed close to this stuff doped with 2 coats.This is the Amazon stuff described in this thread 171004-img 25 inch x 125 ft per roll...12 rolls per case crepe 29.00 delivered. Wayne I'll charge my camera tomorrow and post pictures.I got plenty if anyone wants to try it let me know.
jim
Jim Welch I would love to try it......I have two planes ready to cover......could i try it? I will PM YOU
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So, at last night's NVCL meeting Frank D., of illustrious fame, brought an example of the paper applied to his latest build. One of the attached pictures shows his stab papered with one coat of dope, the other is of a section of the profile fuselage with the paper applied.
Quack, quack,quack!
Would someone please post the application papers for the "Hero of the Reich" nomination? I want to get it filled out so we can award it at the Pilot's Meeting at the Nats (that's the proper venue, right?)
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So, at last night's NVCL meeting Frank D., of illustrious fame, brought an example of the paper applied to his latest build. One of the attached pictures shows his stab papered with one coat of dope, the other is of a section of the profile fuselage with the paper applied.
Quack, quack,quack!
Would someone please post the application papers for the "Hero of the Reich" nomination? I want to get it filled out so we can award it at the Pilot's Meeting at the Nats (that's the proper venue, right?)
It looks GREAT!!!!! COOL. I would contact the district director that he is in and go from there .......ask him about the nomination process
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I dunno. I'm torn... LL~ LL~ LL~ Steve
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What about setting weight on open bays to see how much it takes till it tears verses regular medium silkspan ? Testing the strength ?
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Sorry Tom just goofing around with words...I have SIG and K&S silkspan of all grades here to make a comparison of O OO OOO GM SGM all weight and thickness standards used for the product for years by all the suppliers.in this case the GM and OO seemed close to this stuff doped with 2 coats.This is the Amazon stuff described in this thread 171004-img 25 inch x 125 ft per roll...12 rolls per case crepe 29.00 delivered. Wayne I'll charge my camera tomorrow and post pictures.I got plenty if anyone wants to try it let me know.
jim
Jim, Which way does the grain run, lengthwise or across the roll? I'm interested in a roll but I don't want a whole box of them!
Jerry
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Jim, Which way does the grain run, lengthwise or across the roll? I'm interested in a roll but I don't want a whole box of them!
Jerry
GOOD QUESTION
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For those who may have never dealt with silkspan or, like me, could use a refresher on covering with silkspan, this series of 6 videos gives a useful overview.
http://www.airplanesandrockets.com/resources/silkspan-dope-covering-tutorial.htm
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Hey Tom I got your pm figuring how to wrap for shipment will let you know. Gerald the grain runs length wise.I think the value of this stuff based on cost is about five bucks for the roll ea. plus shipping will add more cost to it.!2 rolls is a lot of paper...got some drying in the shop on another airplane that I can test and not hurt later this pm.I think I can just wrap a piece of cardboard around it and tape the ends to ship and will see what it weighs hopefully cheap to mail.
jim :D
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Tom, no disrespect intended, but you are not getting the 1000 year joke****
****Edited in...as I was typing I guess others schooled Tom...again no disrespect intended!!
Jim W is testing this commercial Staple's exam room paper stuff and seems to be saying-- so far--- he thinks it is similar to GM or OO (original recipe) silk span
A problem we seem to face.... as many think the new Recipe paper has is NOT "just like" the original Silk span from the 50s~60s in the weights that are preferred ---for a 30 to 60 oz stunt plane...
We are looking for a reliable and repeatable source for a product...that is close or the same as 1950s product in a world where OUR (Or Japan's equivalent) EPA KILLED the original product
My personal only silk span experience, as a teen age builder, was with very very questionable Dope and thinners and what ever paper (silk span) was in the kit...and today.. no way to know what Goldberg, Top Flite included
I took it on face value, that the current silk span recipe(s) sucked--- so I moved to Mono-Ultra-Econo-Coverite-Kote, or Poly span, or silk..
I have enough Tom M PolyT to build out 15 models--same with SLC...same with yards of Dharma silk and 5 gallons of Randolph dope and thinners...all clear versions
so I do not really have a dog in this hunt
On the other hand... I know from my wife's quilting hobby there are many many cross over materials that many times can be sourced CHEAPER by the yrd/ foot if not packaged and sold for a specific Hobby discipline
Notably my wife can get me the EXACT material Tom Morris has...cheaper...BUT I prefer Tom's product --as it is nice rolled... right width, right top bottom orientation, and NOT insanely over priced LIKE silk can be from airplane hobby sources
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Just PM on how much and how to pay. I thank you.
The grain rune length wise .....so that is from forward to tail on fuselage the grain runs. On the flap and elevator movable surfaces the grain runs tip to tip or from LE to TE of the flight control surfaces?
Fredvon4.......no offence taking.....My mind was on the info I was reading in serious thought.....ducks thru me....I am not familiar with all the terms. Don't know what GM stands for and there was another but I am writing this.... can't remember what it is with out going back and looking......When I was 11 to 18 years old I doped and silkspan.....back in 1976 to 1984......I bought and I covered and doped......had NO knowledge of what I was doing......
Since then, I went to the top working as a Aircraft jet technician with more on the side of mechanical, structural part then the electrical part. ......So I understand about the building part real well with installing and shaping with precision.....
The finishing.....different story.....almost there ,but not quite.....LOL.....I LOVE to pile paint on up to 16oz's on one plane .....now It is time to get it right and I have learned MUCH......there is a lot of info to learn in our hobby. So far I am on my 3 year getting back and I am pushing my way up to the standards of ya'll...... so I can keep C/L going in the future years to come and pass on the great names of today and pass. Yes I will say things off key......still have catching up to do.....I am always trying new things to see what fits for me. I need to also keep a low budget on planes....don't we all....
I am getting real close on building and finishing techniques, so I can produce a superb flying ship for competitive events. I will only be using buterate Randaloph dope (clear),lacquer, color dope or acrylic, clear coat dope or auto for chemicals onto the slikspan. My wings right now have to be poly or greater cause of my flying field.....like SIG Koverall, but it is heavy......Still searching to find out what it weighs per yard . So I hope my finish works with that.I am still in level beginner....since i have the building quality....now time to concentrate on flying. Now ya know me a little bit and ya know where I am standing......
I am interested in the quilt shop thing though.....we have one here local......what do I ask for?
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Tom and others, this is the most comprehensive covering material weight chart I've found:
https://www.homefly.com/reference/Covering%20Weights.htm
Yes, apply any "grained" covering material on long axis of surfaces.
Pellon is one of the alternate heat-shrinkable materials available at fabric shops.
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Tom.. Personal opinion
Don't git too wrapped up with trying hard to desperately BEAT the current price of real good products we already have IN very good form factors
Unless you are trying to do model airplane hobby on an ever shrinking SSA check only source of income...and if this is the case... well I am sorry, future politics say you are indeed screwed
Yes some commercial skirt lining in 36" to 108" by the yard at JoAnn's can be modestly cheaper than the same 14" x 25'; roll from Tom Morris...BUT Toms stuff already is set good side up...IMPORTANT.... and had no creases..Important
His per sq foot price is NOT too far above the per yard cost at JoAnn's so NO compelling reason to cut the cost corner
The same idea is NOT true with Habotori (CHINA) Silk... almost all hobby aircraft sources are 3 to 5 times the per yard cost of Dharma Trading for 5MM or 8MM white un sized good silk
Same in my mind with plastic shrink covers... the higher end stuff is worth the extra cost
I tried econo Kote and Hobby King crap to cut cost... the extra cost of Ultra Kote is money actually saved
The bigger cost is usually the Dope
I started with Sig Dope, others with Brodak...both great products....great bottle sizes for typical 1/2a building and covering...
BUT for a Ring master, SkyRay, Flite Streak, Twister, Nobler ---or any bigger stunt ship.....a lot of clear and thinner demands a trip to a Big city Aircraft specialty company for $48 per gallon of Taut and NON Taut clear dope and same brand thinner
Trip to Dallas cost me $250... for 2 gallons of Butyrate dope and 3 gallons of thinner...and I use Ace, Wally World, Napa, Lowe's el Chepo Lacquer thinner exclusively for brush and gun cleaning
The same volume from Sig/Brodak would be over $500 easy
Happy shopping...the exam paper crepe is interesting to me BUT Larry Renger's idea of no dope* poly and SLC is damned good light weight and strong method that can also be painted easily
* Modge Podge or white thinned glue works for the poly span...the over lapped SLC is VERY fuel proof and very printable
Just modest opinion from very frugal Phred
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Ty not to contradict you, as I am very recently new to my coming back to the hobby.
I got the impression, over time, that the product IT self (silk-span)---WAS NOT a carcinogenic but the PROCESS to make the original formula was ----beaus of the chemicals used to bind silk fibers into paper fibers...
But your note is true from my meager research on line---- in that --- the products we were used to ---died due to EPA rules...
Caution...!!!.. Pansies !!!! Move to the next post or thread--- the below will @#$% you off..
MY Shamless, zero apology, political statement...the EPA is NOT an elected body and WE have NO oversite of these ass holes... OK--- a very nasty opinion
I fully abdicate to forced removal of any and all current national government officials and the immediate implementation of a term limit that INCLUDES a review of all Career appointees and so called permanent government employees
yes we need cogent health standards ...but they must absolutely be based on Sound science and NOT political or Corporate whims
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Wayne...here's some pictures ....xcaliber in the rough (2 full strength coats) 4 (50x50 thinned coats) stuff is pretty tough I'm pleased....toothpick 8-9 coats buterate I coat extreme poly urethane forced dried all day in front of heater. 24 degrees last night here.fred the voodoo is a 1967 antique with the P45 jas from joann fabrics with 5 coats of buterate.I bought 43 yardsw from joann for $9.78 cause it was ruffled up a bit on the roll and rerolled it at home .Both of these products make my day because I'm building 23 combat planes some 3 at a time so cost is a factor all the way. I'm cutting my own balsa from 2x4 x 5 foot solid boards all the way through.Cutting rib pattern 2 inches thick solid balsa and slicing off like cheese on my band saw 20 to thirty at a time.leading edges spars and planking also hot gluing to a block and making planking run through my wood planer.A friend gave me a 4 ft pile of balsa planks 2x4 and 2x6 5 ft long free.With bulk lead out wire and bulk 3 inch belcranks and control horns, these coverings and home made rock maple mounts my cost per combat plane is about $5.67 cent per airplane.I've got 17 built and many to go.jim
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moe
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Sorry big photos jim
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Just for info: O refers to "O" gauge or scale model railroading, "OO" was originally a Brit designation for what is now "HO" or half O and "OOO" became N scale.
OO is light silk span, GM is for Gas Models and SGM is for small gas models. I believe this designation came about in the late 1930's.
Is was discovered some where, I believe Japan, that silk span tended to be a carcinogen, thus tea bags were no longer being made from it. Being the largest user, the stuff was no longer made.FWIW D>K
Good info....thank you Ty Marucci
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Wayne...here's some pictures ....xcaliber in the rough (2 full strength coats) 4 (50x50 thinned coats) stuff is pretty tough I'm pleased....toothpick 8-9 coats buterate I coat extreme poly urethane forced dried all day in front of heater. 24 degrees last night here.fred the voodoo is a 1967 antique with the P45 jas from joann fabrics with 5 coats of buterate.I bought 43 yardsw from joann for $9.78 cause it was ruffled up a bit on the roll and rerolled it at home .Both of these products make my day because I'm building 23 combat planes some 3 at a time so cost is a factor all the way. I'm cutting my own balsa from 2x4 x 5 foot solid boards all the way through.Cutting rib pattern 2 inches thick solid balsa and slicing off like cheese on my band saw 20 to thirty at a time.leading edges spars and planking also hot gluing to a block and making planking run through my wood planer.A friend gave me a 4 ft pile of balsa planks 2x4 and 2x6 5 ft long free.With bulk lead out wire and bulk 3 inch belcranks and control horns, these coverings and home made rock maple mounts my cost per combat plane is about $5.67 cent per airplane.I've got 17 built and many to go.jim
I have plans to build one stunt ship a month starting next October thru March of 2018. Have two I built and I have three to finish right now. I am like you in being cost effective for the commitment I have set for myself. I need my stock built up and with me shopping local at wally world, mennards, lowes, tractor supply, JoAnn fabrics,ect....ect...These places are on my way when I go grocery shopping......There are products out there that are just as good and can get at least 17 pointer on Appearance judging or maybe pilot choice award........And yes COST IS A FACTOR that has to be figured in.....and.... CONVENIENCE
Looks good.....your tip there you can splice out and blend it in with out knowing it was there. It sorta looks brittle on the tip.....maybe it is the picture.....anyways got some coming. I will be using immediatly.
Thank you for all the work ya have been doing for all of us..........I plan to in a few years hoping to be teaching kids about airplanes......getting stuff like this is priceless
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Just a thought Have you tried putting it on wet . I always thought you wet the tisssue then put that on the framework and then doped around the edges while working out the wrinkles.
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I got my "sample" from TIDI today, part # 916213SMP, Premium Crepe, 21"X125'. It looks tome like the real deal, feels like it also.when it is soaked with water, it has decent strength. I'm thinking it's like the small gas model stuff. I will try to see if the factory will send me small samples of the other part numbers to see what they are like. For large models, I would like to see it a bit heavier, but it looks like what typically came with .35 size model kits back in the day. The grain runs length wise, according to the "tear test." Judging from what I'm seeing in my hands and what others have posted after using it, I think it's good stuff! Besides sending me a whole roll of it, it was packed in a box with about 40 feet or so of the same stuff wadded up, along with a like wise length of some lighter stuff that was shiny on one side, like regular tissue. I got a few small projects getting along so it all will get tried out!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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John, When I was using silk and silk span I would lay the material om the area I was going to cover after cutting to size. Using spray bottle to moisten the material and keeping it handy in case material started drying too fast. Remember also that when it dries and shrinks up tight it will look white until you put more coats of dope on.
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My choice of pictures wasn't the best on the x-c but that dope was wet in that picture and the tip tightened up upon drying a while. Silkspan goes loose when wet until the coat dries out some.John I deliberately just put the paper on dry and doped the edge for the real test of how much it would shrink after wetting.I didn't try very hard to get it tight dry for that purpose. Yes you are right I would normally put it on wet and dope while pulling out the wrinkles. I normally put the tips on in a separate piece to get them right also wet but this was playing with the stuff to see what I could do or not do and still get it fairly tight. Wet the stuff is very strong and not a problem to work out some flaws. the toothpick is like a bongo ...it was put on wet and stretched out tight with lots of dope and poly on top. Looks a lot like the other ducks around here! Thanks Ty for the heads up on silkspan history the boxes are old here but I think I got it close anyway.
Jim
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Wet strength is the hallmark of correct silkspan and the various heavy tissue things currrently claimed as "silkspan" fall apart easily in water.
Brett
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Jim Welch
Where are you located?
Woodbridge VA here.
I see you fly oneof Dickys combat ships
Carl
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Hey Carl...Portsmouth Va. Norfolk aeromodelers for a very long time.Flew combat for years from 1958 on and known and flown him for a long time.
Jim
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Wet strength is the hallmark of correct silkspan and the various heavy tissue things currrently claimed as "silkspan" fall apart easily in water.
Brett
I took a piece about 10" by 21" and soaked it under the water faucet, then "handled" it. It folded back against itself, got stuck was able to peel it apart, turn it end for end, you know, just handled it like I was preparing to cover a wing, and it didn't come apart or even tear. It's the middle weight stuff I think, and if you wanted a more tough covering just double layer it after 3 or 4 coats of dope on the first layer, then finish normally. I'm convinced it's good stuff, and will see if they can send me samples of stuff that is lighter and heavier than this. I'll probably test cover a little .15 job I have and a Shark .15 rebuild I hope to get to to really test it, but I think it's great.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I am going to digress for a moment and say that I have for years been using a light grade of SS to cover foam wings. Most of this is done on many of the Navy Carrier planes I built for my self, and is part of the instruction sheet for 200 Carrier kits I produced several years ago.
I use any of the popular white or yellow glues and I put the silk span on the wing, with a 50-50 amount of brushed on glue. After drying I then give the wings two or more coats and let dry again. So far, and in two cases planes I built more than 10 years ago are still being flown and there is no leakage of fuel. I am now going to order some of the 'crepe" type of paper from Staples and may make some of it available to my friends. So, if any of you reading this missive give it a thought or two about using this newly found SS for your foam needs.
Joe..
The model with the red headed engine took 4th place @ Brodak's in 2011 in Sportsman Carrier. And is still flying with no sepage of raw or spent fuel.
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"Ducks":
He is saying it is just like K&S silkspan, but GM weight not 00 weight.
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Was finishing the sanding on the stab/elevator for my next fun airplane and since I had gotten some of the stuff Terry Caron had obtained I decided to see if I had forgot how to do silk span. Yes I know it is not much different than poly-span(t). The old tear test tells which way the grain is running. Anyway it took more patience to get it from a folded state onto a roll. I used the Hod Podge adhesive on the surfaces. Cut the material to size and got out the Monokote irons. My main iron is headed for the trash as it would not heat. Guess they're only good for so many planes. I learned real quick not to get this material too wet. Using spray bottle just enough moisture so I can tack it down. I lay the material in place then spray. Working the iron around the perimeter I got it all smoothed out and adhered. Next will be putting the mylar on. Will have more pics when it is done. Big thing is no dope odors and I think my pups like that. H^^
By the way, while handling the stab/elevator, I made some indentations. Passed the iron over them and they came right out. Was easy getting it around the tips also. #^
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Somebody should buy some and sell by the roll
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I got my 12 rolls last week but have yet found time to use it. When I'm satisfied I may offer some at cost+ and plus for shipping. shipping.
Joe
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If you find it works as advertised I'd be interested in some. I wouldn't live long enough to use a whole case.
Steve
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I guess my doctor does not use the same stuff all of you are talking about. I just had a Doctor appointment and the stuff covering the table I would not even begin to try and cover a wing with. Must be different than what you guys are talking about. I tore a piece off and brought it home and compared it to the silkspan I have here and not even close.
Mike
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Well I know the stuff Terry sent me does not look any thing what my doctor uses. I know he said I sent too much money, $5.00 and I have enough to do several dozen planes and not worry running out. I've already suggested he go into business selling it at Ebay prices.
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Fellows, after our NACA members got what they wanted, and keeping a couple myself, I have 4 extra rolls (125'x24").
Problem is shipping - my cost for a roll is $2.25, USPS tubes are free (I ordered some in case) but Priority Mail to (e.g.) CA is ~ $12.
So 1 roll would cost about 1/2 what I paid for a case of 12 with free shipping.
But of anyone is interested, I'll "he'p y'out", first come, first served - PM. ;D
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Terry, you're not by chance going to the Perry swap meet are you?
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EDIT:
Sorry, George, thinking of another local swapper.
So no.
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... but Priority Mail to (e.g.) CA is ~ $12.
So 1 roll would cost about 1/2 what I paid for a case of 12 with free shipping.
But of anyone is interested, I'll "he'p y'out", first come, first served - PM. ;D
There's no alternative mailing method? It seems I sent a rolled plan to a guy in Canada last year for less then that.
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This paper weighs the same as 64 sets of plans does to mail......cost me 9.78 to send a roll to Avon Ill last week. looks as if as I just told someone else that its a better idea to order the 12 rolls for 29.00 with free shipping by amazon and share it with those around you rather than spending a bunch on postage. I have given some to 7 different flyers from my area and mailed a few out of state. It's definitely worth the money and effort. Covered a shark with it the other day and it looks great.Couple combat planes and my new brodak cub also.
Jim #^
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So in the end what is the correct information for ordering a case and from where?
Thanks
Wayne
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Wayne I ordered based on Dave Siegler's post # 5 in this thread shipped from AMazon....
29.00 freight free...
Jim
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Look at Carl Cisneros' post #6. That info is directly from our Hero of the Reich Award winner Frank D.
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Thanks, looking to pass on to club for stunt fliers.
Wayne
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Better hurry as the site says only 2 cases left in stock. See post #5 for link. H^^
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Reply #17 lists 3 suppliers, AFAIK all the same stuff.
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S?P
Reply #17 lists 3 suppliers, AFAIK all the same stuff.
If there is any hint of it being good for C/L it will be discontinued by the manufacturer S?P
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Oh, no, David, it's definitely not good for C/l!
(Just for C/L planes) LL~
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New bumper-sticker:
When Silkspan is Discontinued
Only Discontinuees will have Silksp....
Ahhh, never mind.
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Scott...if it looks like a discontinue, acts like a discontinue, has plenty of silkspan, It's..you know...
never mind
LL~
jim
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Jimmy:
You forgot "Quacks like a discontinue!" You gotta include "Quacks like a discontinue!" ;D
Here's the bad part - I got a whole roll of that stuff courtesy of Frank D, HOTR, but I have 3 builds in finishing stage (oh crap, 4. I forgot the Goldfish!) I gotta glue some sticks together so I have something to cover!
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Oz Medical Supply on Amazon gets their paper from McKesson who in turn gets it from TIDI. Just got a box, handles wet just like silkspan, did not tear. I stretched over a bowl just fine. Will be using it in near future as soon as I get workshop up and running.
Seems the price is stable at $26 so far with free shipping
https://www.amazon.com/Exam-Table-Paper-Creped-case/dp/B0020MC8EW/?ie=UTF8&qid=1486233024&sr=8-5&keywords=exam+table+paper
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anybody in sunny southern ca have any of this or want to split an order ?
i'm in palmdisaster ?
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Hey fellers -
I did a Google and found a single roll supplier, Tidi Part # 981004, $2.84/roll:
https://www.4mdmedical.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/388399/s/table-paper-crepe-white-21-x-125-roll/?CAWELAID=120141310000056386&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&scid=scplpTIDI981004G&sc_intid=TIDI981004G&gclid=CLnp4NfKrtICFc-3wAodf68Ovg
Dunno about shipping cost.
This has '00s of suppliers:
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=exam+table+paper+crepe&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=174224604193&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=77579100539467252&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9058809&hvtargid=kwd-34426394741&ref=pd_sl_6z0expjpz6_b
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OO is light silk span, GM is for Gas Models and SGM is for small gas models. I believe this designation came about in the late 1930's.
Is was discovered some where, I believe Japan, that silk span tended to be a carcinogen, thus tea bags were no longer being made from it. Being the largest user, the stuff was no longer made.FWIW D>K
[/quote
Hey Ty;
I gotta correct you on this one. Your memory is usually pretty good, but I was wondering about the weight grading and looked it up in two old catalogs. One is a SIG #39 catalog, early to mid 70's and they call out 00 as light, GM as medium and SGM as heavy. I have a 1957 Hobbycraft Cyclopedia from Ace Model Distributors here in St. Louis and they list silkspan the same way; 00 for rubber powered models up to 36" span, GM for large rubber and light gas models, and SGM for large class "C" gas models and high speed control line models. That is the way I was thinking it was, and the SGM meant "super gas model." To my estimation, from examining the paper sample I got from TIDI, the exam table paper is GM grade. I got into an older Twister kit and got the silkspan out of that and it is MUCH heavier and should be the SGM grade. I still need to pull out my stash of silkspan and check the TIDI sample against the old stuff I have that is still in it's original package. If you need silkspan heavier that the TIDI 916213, just double cover it.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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One or more of the suppliers noted above list another product (517?) at about twice the price of that I bought - it may well be an "SGM" weight.
As reported earlier, mine weighs .69 oz/sq yd.
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Terry;
How long was the piece you weighed to equal a square yard? I'm too tired and lazy right now for math!!! I'll cut a similar length of the stuff TIDI sent me and weigh it on my triple beam Ohaus balance scale. I don't think I have a digital scale that will weigh less than a gram.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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5' 1 3/4", Dan, 300 grains on my scale.
p.s.
sample on it's way today.
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61 3/4 " how wide is the roll ? 20.9875 " ?
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Rolls are nominal 21", Jim.
A tiny fractional difference won't substantially change the weight of a square yard.
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I ordered a couple of rolls from the vendor found by Terry in # 111
They were $2.84 per roll... shipping was 8.95. after checking shipping for 1 roll... I tried 2.. same shipping so I ordered 2.
I hate it when the shipping is so much more than the item you are buying :-(
I will report after I try some...
steve
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[/quote
To my estimation, from examining the paper sample I got from TIDI, the exam table paper is GM grade. I got into an older Twister kit and got the silkspan out of that and it is MUCH heavier and should be the SGM grade. I still need to pull out my stash of silkspan and check the TIDI sample against the old stuff I have that is still in it's original package. If you need silkspan heavier that the TIDI 916213, just double cover it.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
The real question then, at least to me, is how does the doctors office stuff compare to the old Sig Medium? Lighter? Heavier? The same?
Also, is Sig Medium the same as the K&S "GM" grade?
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I think SIG sold K&S silkspan, and the stuff they called Plyspan, that I have seen mentioned in a thread here on the list. An old SIG catalog I have shows Plyspan in light, medium and heavy also. I'm going to go through my stash tonight and weigh a section of the stuff TIDI sent me to see how it compares to what Terry got, and to my old stuff. Stay tuned, sports fans!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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The real question then, at least to me, is how does the doctors office stuff compare to the old Sig Medium? Lighter? Heavier? The same?
Also, is Sig Medium the same as the K&S "GM" grade?
Sig heavy silkspan is .74 oz/sq yd, my Tidi weighs .69 oz, so a little lighter, Wayne.
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I just weighed a 61 3/4" length of the stuff TIDI sent me, and it weighed .9 ounces on my digital scale, and 23 grams on my Ohaus triple beam scale.
I thought I had several boxes of old stuff, but when I made my last attempt at organizing things, I must have ditched the boxes so more would fit in the rubber maid tub! But I did have a box with a few 24" by 36" stuff, it was labeled GM and "Packaged by Fox Manufacturing. One of those sheets weighed 9 grams. I pulled a sheet of paper from a SIG Super Chipmunk kit that measured 24" by 36" and it weighed 12 grams. I would have to do some SERIOUS digging to see if I have anything that I would guess to be heavy or SGM. I have been collecting this stuff for almost 40 years and quite a large stash of tissue, silkspan, and silk, and one of these days I'll spend a day and sort it out, but right now it's just all heaped together in a couple of rubber maid tubs.
My conclusion is that silkspan could vary from batch to batch if weighed accurately. Once I get the sample from Terry to examine, I'll have a good idea of what he has. I suspect it's a different part number that on the TIDI web site is called "every day". The stuff that is the 916213 part number is called "choice." My feeling is that the stuff I got got from TIDI is maybe just a touch heavier than your average GM grade silkspan. If you wanted a more heavier covering, just double cover with it. But as it is right now, I think it's good stuff equal to K&S GM or SIG medium silkspan.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I ordered a couple of rolls from the vendor found by Terry in # 111
They were $2.84 per roll... shipping was 8.95. after checking shipping for 1 roll... I tried 2.. same shipping so I ordered 2.
I hate it when the shipping is so much more than the item you are buying :-(
I will report after I try some...
steve
Hi Steve;
That stuff has the part number, 981004, that is called "every day" grade on the TIDI web site. If you have a scale weigh a 61 3/4" length and see what it weighs. It may or may not be the same as the 916213.
The suspense is killing me!
Dan McEntee
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If your Fox (.51 oz/sq yd) & Sig (.63 oz) are GM, yours at .81 oz (all converted from grams) is significantly heavier.
I haven't found a weight for K&S SGM but I'd be very surprised if it were heavier than your Tidi.
I suspect Steve's will be the same as what I have (McKesson's PN 18-1004), which seems to be a heavyish GM.
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will do, Dan... I Don't know if it has shipped yet... I will weigh it when it comes. I just got a scale for the shop... it is supposed to weigh in grams, grains, troy ounces, ounces, carats, and pennyweight (DWT) whatever that is... cost $6 or $7 anxious to see if it matches my other scales?? I have a couple of grain calibration weights... we will see...
steve
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But I did have a box with a few 24" by 36" stuff, it was labeled GM and "Packaged by Fox Manufacturing. One of those sheets weighed 9 grams. I pulled a sheet of paper from a SIG Super Chipmunk kit that measured 24" by 36" and it weighed 12 grams.
Sounds then like Sig Medium would be the equivalent of K&S GM, and what they supplied in their kits was the equivalent of SGM.
FWIW, I talked with Mike Gretz about all of this back when the Sig Medium inventory dried up. I was hoping he might come up with a long lost stash, but it was not to be. I don't recall where he said they got theirs from, but he did say that is was NOT from K&S. He also said the reason Sig quit carrying it was because whoever that supplier was no longer had it available.
Also, after following a lead from Dave Trible a while back I ordered some silkspan from Easy Built Models. I haven't had a chance to give it a try yet but it does seem very similar to the old Sig Medium. I did notice that the finish seems just a bit shinier than the Sig stuff, and maybe slightly heavier. Sometime in the next week or two I should be ready to give it a try over the solid areas of the Hutch P-38, fingers crossed.
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Received a case of Tidi Part # 981004 paper rolls. I only have some of Brodak's lite silkspan to compare it with and it looks and feels identical. I can't tell the difference. I did a small mockup and it acts just like the Brodak silkspan. I like it! #^
Dennis
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One sheet of K&S SGM weighs 11.88 grams on my digital scale.
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What size is your sheet, George?
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Terry Caron sent a small sample of the paper he bought, that I will call "1004". It has the same last four digits in it's part number as TIDI has on the paper that they call "everyday" grade on their web site. I got a sample roll from TIDI of their part number 916213, what they call "choice" on their web site and the stuff originally mention at the start ofo this thread. I have been real curious if it is the same stuff or not. Terry sent me a small sample to check out. I cut a piece of my stuff the exact same size as his sample, ( 6 3/4" by 17"). I weighed them both, and my sample was a good half a gram heavier. That might not sound like much, by for a small piece like that, I think that's significant. Then I help both pieces up to look through them at the light of a table lamp with a lamp shade on it. I could definitely see more light coming through Terry's sample. It's like the "choice" grade has more fibers per square inch than the "everyday" grade. It may not be much heavier, but I would think it would fill with dope faster. In short, I think they are both good quality paper coverings, just that the 916213 part number is a bit heavier than the 18-1004, or what ever part number you have that ends in 1004. I don't think anyone will have any problems with either product, but I think there is at least a slight difference in weight.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Terry,
SGM sheet is 24x36, as far as I know that is standard for K&S. I also weighed a sheet of GM, just over 10 grams. The GM is in the white K&S box, marked 12 cents a sheet, got a chuckle out of that. George
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Terry,
SGM sheet is 24x36, as far as I know that is standard for K&S. I also weighed a sheet of GM, just over 10 grams. The GM is in the white K&S box, marked 12 cents a sheet, got a chuckle out of that. George
Less than 2 grams a sheet difference. I just weighed an equivalent sized sheet of TIDI 916213, (21"by41.140" approx.) and it weighs 15.5 grams on my Ohaus balance beam scale. I would say then that the 916213 is approximately the same as SGM, and the "1004" numbered products is approximately the same as GM grade silkspan. I'm glad someone had a sample of K&S stuff still in original packaging! Thank you George!! I would have thought SGM was heavier than that, but I guess not. In weighing sheets that I pulled out of my mixed up stash. that is near what some of those weighed, so I'm convinced. Now just gotta build some models to cover with this stuff!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Did anyone's research of these materials find one that was the equivalent of light silkspan? Something that could be used for rubber free flight models.
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You might try tissue from Guillow's. In looking for Japanese tissue I found ( on Ebay) Guillow's sold packages of this paper they use in their kits. They DID NOT call it Japanese tissue and it isn't really. I was looking for something very light and yet strong to cover a couple new stunt ships. The Guillow's stuff were the only sheets large enough to cover in one piece so I ordered six packages-and it's not cheap this way. I found it is more dense like Japanese tissue, has a grain like real silk span, shrinks pretty well but doesn't have a shiny side like Japanese tissue does. I had used some 'silk span' from Easy Built models which covered very well but discovered it has very little strength once the dope cured and would poke a hole VERY easily. I went back to tear a new piece and check it-no grain in any direction which means it has no fiber strength.
Anyway the Guillow's stuff I covered dry, like you do Japanese tissue. I then sprayed it with a water bottle. I put on two thin coats of Randolph tautening clear dope and it is perfect and filled. So far it is worth the expense and very light. It would serve either as light silk span or Japanese tissue quite well.
Dave
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Tom Morris sells doctor paper by the roll also. Think I paid $4 a roll.
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Did anyone's research of these materials find one that was the equivalent of light silkspan? Something that could be used for rubber free flight models.
Hi James;
Read the thread completely and you will see what the weights for the two main types of Doc-Span that I have found. They are equivalent to what K&S called GM (medium) and SGM
( heavy) . There was also a recent thread where it was discussed that the lightest silkspan that was shown in some old catalogs was called "0" or "ought". Some guys seem to remember the light stuff going all the way down to "000" or "0000" but I have never found a reference to this numbers. Some of the old Sterling scale rubber power kits had some really light silk span that was probably the same as the K&S light product, but the lighter weight paper I got from Tidi is heavier that that. The Tidi number 18-1004 might be OK for larger rubber models like old Wakefields and other OT cabin and stick models like the Korda '39 Wakefield Winner or Lanzo stick fuselage model. Again, check out the whole thread here and there have been a few others. At the time I was looking into it I wasn't too concerned with free flight models, just mostly control line applications. Search out the Tidi web site and go through their product offerings on exam table paper as they might have changed in the last couple of years.. The stuff I have purchased has a grain that runs length wise on the roll, handles well when wet, and takes dope well, and when compared directly to known samples of old K&S seemed the same to me in every way. Hunt around the internet and eBay to see who has what for sale and current prices and such. The rolls are 125 long I think and will last a long, long time.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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"Easybuilt" models sells silkspan, has done so for quite awhile, Dave Trible says it is good covering in a construction article of "Diablo" design in a recent issue of "Stunt News"
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"Easybuilt" models sells silkspan, has done so for quite awhile, Dave Trible says it is good covering in a construction article of "Diablo" design in a recent issue of "Stunt News"
It has somewhat lost its favor with me after having some finishes age over time. There isn’t enough fiber strength to hold together. A light finger touch results in a hole. This wasn’t known until the dope aged and got brittle. Thanks for the reference tho- the airplane is Desperado. Diablo was an old time stunt ship. A couple of my ships are still covered with it and are OK. I’ve considered shooting a fresh wet coat of clear over them to soften and hopefully rejuvenate the finish. I’m sure the Guillows material is much better.
Dave
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Well I use mylar either over or under the DOC paper. D>K
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Hi James;
Read the thread completely and you will see what the weights for the two main types of Doc-Span that I have found. They are equivalent to what K&S called GM (medium) and SGM
( heavy) . There was also a recent thread where it was discussed that the lightest silkspan that was shown in some old catalogs was called "0" or "ought". Some guys seem to remember the light stuff going all the way down to "000" or "0000" but I have never found a reference to this numbers. Some of the old Sterling scale rubber power kits had some really light silk span that was probably the same as the K&S light product, but the lighter weight paper I got from Tidi is heavier that that. The Tidi number 18-1004 might be OK for larger rubber models like old Wakefields and other OT cabin and stick models like the Korda '39 Wakefield Winner or Lanzo stick fuselage model. Again, check out the whole thread here and there have been a few others. At the time I was looking into it I wasn't too concerned with free flight models, just mostly control line applications. Search out the Tidi web site and go through their product offerings on exam table paper as they might have changed in the last couple of years.. The stuff I have purchased has a grain that runs length wise on the roll, handles well when wet, and takes dope well, and when compared directly to known samples of old K&S seemed the same to me in every way. Hunt around the internet and eBay to see who has what for sale and current prices and such. The rolls are 125 long I think and will last a long, long time.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Thanks for the response. I read the whole thread several times but could not find anything about a "light" version. Was just hoping someone may have stumbled on something since then. Most of my models are small rubber scale, and for my bigger RC Electrics, I use Polyspan. Since I am not a competition guy, a little extra weight on my rubber doesn't matter to me as much as durability. So I was just looking for a stronger alternative to tissue. I may give the EZ Build stuff a try. Of course I just placed an order a week or so ago that I could have added onto for the same shipping. Sigh...
The search continues...
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"Easybuilt" models sells silkspan, has done so for quite awhile, Dave Trible says it is good covering in a construction article of "Diablo" design in a recent issue of "Stunt News"
Thanks for the info. I will look up that article.
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You might try tissue from Guillow's. In looking for Japanese tissue I found ( on Ebay) Guillow's sold packages of this paper they use in their kits. They DID NOT call it Japanese tissue and it isn't really. I was looking for something very light and yet strong to cover a couple new stunt ships. The Guillow's stuff were the only sheets large enough to cover in one piece so I ordered six packages-and it's not cheap this way. I found it is more dense like Japanese tissue, has a grain like real silk span, shrinks pretty well but doesn't have a shiny side like Japanese tissue does. I had used some 'silk span' from Easy Built models which covered very well but discovered it has very little strength once the dope cured and would poke a hole VERY easily. I went back to tear a new piece and check it-no grain in any direction which means it has no fiber strength.
Anyway the Guillow's stuff I covered dry, like you do Japanese tissue. I then sprayed it with a water bottle. I put on two thin coats of Randolph tautening clear dope and it is perfect and filled. So far it is worth the expense and very light. It would serve either as light silk span or Japanese tissue quite well.
Dave
Thanks for the tip.
I have a few sheets of leftover Guillows paper from models that I used colored tissue on. I have gotten into printing my tissue so whatever I use has to be white, generally. I think I will play with the stuff I have to see how it does. If all goes well, I may order some.
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Our ducks don't quack, they just get into trouble with the police.
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Hi James;
Read the thread completely and you will see what the weights for the two main types of Doc-Span that I have found. They are equivalent to what K&S called GM (medium) and SGM
( heavy) . There was also a recent thread where it was discussed that the lightest silkspan that was shown in some old catalogs was called "0" or "ought".
I believe "GM" stood for gas model
Ara
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Normally, I would be happy to see GM silkspan back and available.
However, since I have discovered Polyspan, there is no more need for silkspan.
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Normally, I would be happy to see GM silkspan back and available.
However, since I have discovered Polyspan, there is no more need for silkspan.
Since I have discovered silk, there is no more need for anything else. ;D
About tissue. My wife buys stuff that comes in the mail from Neiman Marcus. There's always tissue paper in the box. The white tissue sheets are 18" x 24" and I must have 18 or so sheets. I have no idea why I save them?
How much of an 18 x 24 sheet is needed for a model? How many sheets?
For anyone that wants this tissue, if you don't mind a fold, I'l put them in a large business envelope and mail them out.
PM me.
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Hello all...
Am I correct in saying TIDI 916213 is equivalent to medium weight silkspan? And the TIDI 981004 is lighter weight?
Thank you.
Ed.
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Hello all...
Am I correct in saying TIDI 916213 is equivalent to medium weight silkspan? And the TIDI 981004 is lighter weight?
Thank you.
Ed.
[/quote
That sounds familiar. The info should be in this thread or a similar thread where we weighed the two part numbers against examples of original, genuine K&S silk span. I'll check the boxes mine came in but I believe that is correct.
Dan McEntee
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Can I get a sample of the silkspan replacement. Willing to pay for the post and product. Thanks, mike Krizan
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Not without listing at least your state in your profile details page. LL~
I know I've personally mailed off a good chunk gratis between here, RCG, and CEF (mostly there). This stuff comes in 125' rolls. I bet I still have more than I need for the next 10 years.
I usually send enough to do a 8"x19" tail surface/stabilizer/rudder...or a good chunk of in-filled or solid profile fuselage just so the recipient gets to play with a chunk.
I have Tidi 98-1004 21"wx125'. This is the everyday crepe.
The trick is finding A ROLL. I did a couple years back. The same vendor no longer sells singles. I have seen singles on eBay a time or two. Same for an open-stock case for cheap! I just didn't have any place to store the lot.
Shoot me a PM with email. I'll forward some links to ham-fisted use of the stuff.
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Dont know if Arya came up with the term, but whoever did, I’d like to second the nomination of “Doc-Span” as the official term for our use of this product!
Gary
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Sir,
That was me shortly after Dan McEntee sent me a sheet or two.
Probably 2/3rds back from the start. Maybe 3 years ago give or take a few months. Or same time frame over on CEF.
Late edit: 1/2 way down the page, May 4th,.2017-First use; then May 17th-Second use, I explained why the name.
https://www.coxengineforum.com/t10823-perfect-tanks-and-wen-mac-props-silkspan#137193
I believe there is another related thread here where I called it by that name.
I did the same on RCG, but I won't bother to find them.
"Medical Office Exam Table Paper" seemed to be such a mouthful compared to Silk-span or Mono-Kote.
Dont know if Arya came up with the term, but whoever did, I’d like to second the nomination of “Doc-Span” as the official term for our use of this product!
Gary
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I think that "Doc-span" is a fine name for it.
But when does Frank D. get his Hero of the Reich Award (with Oak Clusters) for discovering it and thereby saving all of model airplane-dom? It's been 4 years.....