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Author Topic: World shortage of silkspan ended - Frank D nominated for "Hero of the Reich"  (Read 22004 times)

Offline Scott Richlen

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Got this  E-mail yesterday.  Based on this, I am hereby nominating Frank D for Hero of the Reich Award (with Oak Leaf Clusters):

Quote
NVCL members,
 
Ever since hobby websites have run out of silkspan, I have been on a quest to find a substitute for it since I am a paper and dope kind of guy.
 
During a check-up at the local military hospital a few months ago I noticed that the exam table paper sure looked a lot like the silkspan I’d been using on all my model aircraft.  The doctor thought I was nuts when I asked him if I could take home the 6 foot section I was sitting on.  After all, it looked and felt  just like silkspan……….the question was, would it act like silkspan?  The short answer is, YES IT DOES!!!!   I tried out my test piece on a built up stabilizer  for my next stunt beast and it went right on damp, took the nitrate dope and shrunk right up when I hit it with a blow dryer. I tried it on bare wood to cover the grain and it works great and leaves a smooth surface.
 
Now I was ready to find out from the hospital what it was called and where to get more.  One of the medics offered to give me a roll but I told him “Son, if I take that we’re both gonna be in a lot of trouble”.  I asked him to tell me what it says  on the box it comes in and he said, “they only give us the roles”.
 
I went to the hospital supply office and they tried to help, but all they could tell me was the brand, Medline, and I could get it at Staples.  To make a long story short I had to order various types and send them back before I finally found the match.  It comes from the Tidi company and it is their top of the line crepe exam table paper, 21 inches wide on a roll 125 feet long…..enough paper to cover the Spruce Goose, and it comes in a carton of 12 rolls.
 
The paper looks just like the silkspan we get from K&B.  It is strong when wet (it’s wet tensile strength is not quite as good as silkspan) but it has good strength none the less (hell, we sit on it on the exam table) and is strong and pliable when laying it on the aircraft.  It sticks down with nitrate dope on a doped wood structure no problem.  It is thin enough to be worked on compound curves too.  When it dries, it comes  out tight and smooth, ready for more coats of dope.  It has a rough and a smooth side, and has a grain.  To give you an example of how it works, a 6 inch strip expands to 6 ½ inches when wetted.  Lay that down and it tries to shrink back to size and that makes it tighten up.
 
I’ll bring some rolls over to Scott’s tomorrow so you can see for yourselves.  The rolls are either 60 ft or 125 ft long (I haven’t rolled one out) and are $4 to cover the cost.  What a deal.  You’ll never have to buy paper for the rest of  your life.
 
Fly Stunt, Frank

So, we'll see this stuff at my shop session this morning.  Now, I don't want to get too many of you too excited (considering our age and living on a fixed income, we can't afford to be changing those Depends too often...), but we'll be testing this stuff for durability and etc. over the next few months and report back as the findings come in.

Scott

Offline Jim Oliver

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Interesting find.

Any idea about actual unfinished vs. finished weight of the stuff?
Jim Oliver
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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I am inclined to believe that all exam room sanitary coverings are not created equal.  This would mean that you now get to determine what version, brand, etc is being used. 

Seeing that these are pretty reasonably priced per case of 12 (about $50 to $100 depending on type) getting a group together should be easy.  Buying one off the physician's office may be more challenging than it sounds though.  At 125 or 225 ft per roll it is effectively a lifetime supply.

So more information is needed.

Phil

Offline Allan Perret

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Got this  E-mail yesterday.  Based on this, I am hereby nominating Frank D for Hero of the Reich Award (with Oak Leaf Clusters):

So, we'll see this stuff at my shop session this morning.  Now, I don't want to get too many of you too excited (considering our age and living on a fixed income, we can't afford to be changing those Depends too often...), but we'll be testing this stuff for durability and etc. over the next few months and report back as the findings come in.

Scott
So did Frank D buy a case and has some available for sale ??   Sounding like it should be cheap enough for experimentation.  I have 6 or 7 different wings I built over the winter that are ready for covering..
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Offline Steve Schoenecker

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I searched for the tidi brand.. and found some at  Quill

  http://www.quill.com/tidi-crepe-paper-exam-table-covers-18x125-roll-white/cbs/086888.html?effort_code=901&promoCode=&find_number=32162

If this is the same stuff... great prices...  and I think they have free shipping too.  They list 18" x 125'  and 21" x 125'  for $33.99 and $39.99..  This one says crepe... they have others that do not mention crepe.. slightly higher...

all of these are for case of 12...  

I would love to know if this is the same product

steve

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Offline dave siegler

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Online Carl Cisneros

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Frank sent me the following on the paper:


Carl,
 
TIDI company choice crepe exam table paper.  Item 541653, model number 916212.  Staples has it $45.99 for a carton of 12 rolls (one roll is 21inches by 125 ft).

Frank
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Carl:

Where were you today?  Frank left a roll with me to parcel out to the club.

Of course, since you didn't show I had to use yours on my examination table....

Online Carl Cisneros

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Scott

been without wheels for 2 days. Blazer in the shop for upper and lowerball joints and the drivers side motor mount.

$810.00 later,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I got it back at about 5:30 this afternoon.

Carl C

You going to be home tomorrow at all?  Might be able to swing by and pick up teh Cox motor.

Carl R Cisneros, Dist IV
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Offline Skip Chernoff

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Great find.Please let us know how it works out.

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blank
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 09:29:00 AM by Motorman »

Offline Scott Richlen

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Me neither.  My doctors always seem to have some kind of parchment-like paper.  I thought Frank was nuts when he first mentioned this.  Turns out there are a lot of different papers.  The stuff he brought over looks like silkspan and he covered his stab (built-up structure) with it and looking at it you'd never know the difference.

Offline Allan Perret

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Frank sent me the following on the paper:


Carl,
 
TIDI company choice crepe exam table paper.  Item 541653, model number 916212.  Staples has it $45.99 for a carton of 12 rolls (one roll is 21inches by 125 ft).

Frank

On Staples site I see 541653 / 916213   last digit off by 1.  Is that it ?
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Is there a grain direction, as with silkspan?  ??? Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Online Dan McEntee

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On Staples site I see 541653 / 916213   last digit off by 1.  Is that it ?

   I see the 916213 number on the Tidi web site also. I've emailed them about vendors in the St. Louis area. we don't have any Staples stores here. I see their trucks running around and a warehouse near the airport with their trucks, but no retail stores. I don't want to order any on line until I see a sample, or get good confirmation from you guys on it. Ii stopped by the local Office Max and had them check on it, and the stuff they had in their computer system was $177 bucks a 12 roll case! A definite difference!
   Type at you later,
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Offline Randy Powell

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I may try it when I run out of silkspan. That won't be for a bit.
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Offline George Albo

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You just got me all moist and excited! Please let us know how it pans out. I am a dinosaur and cannot see myself using anything but Tissue over Balsa and Dope.  This truly is great news.
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Offline Fredvon4

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I suppose cuz I dun know--- there needs to be some way to determine OLD silkspan, new formulation, and any or all other commercial products with similar qualities

Weight per sq yard.... dry as bought and after full fill doping
Shrinkage in length and width
Comparative strength wet/dry
Minimum amount of dope to fill the weave

I only ever used the stuff in the kits of old so never need to pester the LHS but was aware of the three weight grads we had access too...hell I can't remember now but thinking something like O--OO- and OOO...I do know I am wrong with this weight description but you get the idea

I suspect the subject (high quality) medical barrier paper may be very similar to the old silk span but what weight may be hard to determine without comparative testing

Academic for me as I tend to like the Tom Morris Polyspan and some of the Kote' iron on plastics, Esaki tissues, and Dharma silks I have be re-learning with

But... I am curious enough to see if this ends up being good stuff to add to the kit of on hand options





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Online Brett Buck

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I am inclined to believe that all exam room sanitary coverings are not created equal.  This would mean that you now get to determine what version, brand, etc is being used. 

Seeing that these are pretty reasonably priced per case of 12 (about $50 to $100 depending on type) getting a group together should be easy.  Buying one off the physician's office may be more challenging than it sounds though.  At 125 or 225 ft per roll it is effectively a lifetime supply.

So more information is needed.

Phil

  I would agree. I have been in a lot of hospitals and doctor's offices over the last year, unfortunately, and I never noticed anything that looked like silkspan. All the pull-down paper covers looked like regular old butcher paper. Which would be fine for drawings but not so good for covering your wing.

      Brett

Offline Terry Caron

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At $26 for a multi-lifetime (for me, anyhoo) supply, I ordered a case.
Delivery is a week or so and I'll report some specs and speculation.
TIDI Products 981004 Everyday Exam Table Barrier, Crepe Roll, 21" x 125' Size, White (Pack of 12)
Brand Name    Tidi
Color    WHITE
Item Weight    17.1 pounds
Number of Items    12
Part Number    981004
Style Name    roll
UNSPSC Code    60121116

Whaaa?  Just looked again and it's gone up $1.50ish since I ordered!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 04:38:00 PM by Terry Caron »
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Online Dan McEntee

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  Go to the Tidi web site and you'll see there there is ALL kinds of this stuff. The product in question is called "choice" and one of three grades of this particular paper. Some are called crepe, some not. Comes in 250 foot rolls also, and can come printed with all sorts of stuff. I have a good supply of the "good stuff" and can wait to see how this shakes out. I have an email into the Tidi company to see if there are any vendors for the specific paper in question in my area so I can maybe check it out in person.
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Offline wwwarbird

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  All the pull-down paper covers looked like regular old butcher paper. Which would be fine for drawings but not so good for covering your wing.

      Brett

 From my experience, I think that must be the stuff Brodak sells.  D>K

 Watching this thread with interest, please keep us posted guys.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
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Offline Keith Renecle

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Some years ago, one of our seasoned modellers told me that teabag tissue is very much the same stuff as medium weight silkspan. I was looking for a replacement for Polyspan and also some decent tissue to cover the balsa surfaces and I remembered this story. I started searching locally and came up with an import agent for teabag tissue from Germany. Once I found the one with a spec close to medium weight silkspan, I asked nicely for a sample, but I was told that they only have sealed full rolls of about 3 kilometres long. A very nice lady said that she would call me back to see if they could find me a short piece to try. She came back to me and said that their warehouse had a damaged roll and that if I wanted it I could get it for free if I collected it myself. I was there the next day! Only the first few layers had a bump in them so this was an absolute gift!

It has a weight of 16.5 grams per square metre and it works well. I have since given a lot to various modellers if they pop around to get some. That roll weighed about 100 lb. when I got it. I've attached the spec sheet for those that are interested. I'm now using it over thin laminating film like SLC and it paints nicely.

Keith R
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Offline tom creasey

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I will be watching this thread closely......please update when it is confirmed.......I have TIDI crepe paper in my cart at Amazon ready to click the order.....This is exciting!!!!
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Offline RogerGreene

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Hey Scott, that's great news. I am interested in a this. Sure hope the testing comes out positive.

Thanks for the info

Roger
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Offline Bill Johnson

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Some years ago, one of our seasoned modellers told me that teabag tissue is very much the same stuff as medium weight silkspan. Keith R

One of our "seasoned" modelers, Ty Marcucci, related at the club meeting last night that at one time, it was common knowledge that tea bags were the same material. If he had a minor repair to do, he'd get a tea gag and cut it up for the patch.

There's quite a few of us interested if this pans out.
Best Regards,
Bill

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Offline Terry Caron

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If it turns out to be good stuff I'll have plenty to spread amongst the club, Bill.
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Offline Bill Johnson

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Thanks, Terry. John brought it up at the club meeting that you were going to be trying some out. It would be nice to find it works out for those old time planes like the Barnstormer. It just doesn't seem right putting a synthetic covering on them.
Best Regards,
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Offline Terry Caron

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Fingers crossed!  :)
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Offline peabody

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Seems to me that John Brodak bought something like 30,000 sheets of Medium last year.....is he out of it?

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   I contacted the TIDI Company by email and they are sending me some samples of the part number in question. Should have it by the end of the week. The source for the their product that they sent me is a place in Oklahoma and they list the stuff for 55 bucks a case. I'm anxious to get a sample in my hands.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Delivered and looks right,  McKesson 18-1004 Exam Paper Table, Crepe.
Thickness .00225", grain runs lengthwise of roll, *may* have shiny side out.
Super close wt/sq yd = 300 grains, .69 oz, 19.5 grams.
So about Sig GM silkspan weight.
Doping characteristics and filled weight hafta wait 'til I cover something.


« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 01:58:40 PM by Terry Caron »
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Offline Allan Perret

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Delivered and looks right,  McKesson 18-1004 Exam Paper Table, Crepe.
Thickness .00225", grain runs lengthwise of roll, no shiny side.
Super close wt/sq yd = 300 grains, .69 oz, 19.5 grams.
So between GM and SGM silkspan?
Doping characteristics and filled weight hafta wait 'til I cover something.



Send me some and I will accelerate the testing.  I have 6 wings built over the winter ready to cover.  Promise full reporting. If you bought a case I will buy roll and pay shipping.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Email sent, Allen.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Seems to me that John Brodak bought something like 30,000 sheets of Medium last year.....is he out of it?

Was that the same silkspan that everybody that tried it reported to be horrible and unusable? Just wondering, since you seem to know all about it.  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline peabody

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Some reported it horrible.....it's the same stuff K&B sold for decades....

Offline Steve Helmick

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Maybe you meant "K&S"...the folks that sell tubing and sheet metal at the LHS?

I always used SIG silkspan, because our LHS got SIG balsa, fuel, kits and...silkspan.  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

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Some reported it horrible.....it's the same stuff K&B sold for decades....


   K&S, and it is not the same at all.

     Brett

Offline Terry Caron

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Who, besides Sig, Peck and Brodak, sell "silkspan" these days and are any of them good substitutes for the old stuff?
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Offline wwwarbird

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Who, besides Sig, Peck and Brodak, sell "silkspan" these days and are any of them good substitutes for the old stuff?


 That question is pretty much the reason and point of this thread.  y1

 Last I knew Sig was out of their inventory of (medium) silkspan and had no plans to replace the offering. The Brodak medium that I have tried a few times is total crap, to the point that I threw all I had in the garbage. No idea about Peck.
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Offline jim welch

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Here's my playing with it findings from today
bought me an olfa cutter and wacked up 38 yds off the roll  ( 25x36x 38 pcs)
dry mounted to an xcaliber wing and pulled fairly tight dry....doped down the edges.....le te and tip......
sprayed with spray bottle water and let shrink....
very little effort was taken to tighten dry and it shrank very tight upon air drying
almost good at tips with few wrinkles...on an xcalibur tip that's good....
one coat of dope and was all perfectly tight with few flaws at tips  and overall very taught
second coat of dope and sounds like a drumb .Actually pretty shiny for two coats (full strength)
not thinned dope....the xcalibur has three external spars on the outside at rib hight top and bottom so is a pretty hard test for silkspan along the front of the airfoil...
looks like a duck
feels like a duck
shrinks like a duck
comparing to my K&s and Sig it looks like a GM duck if not a 00 duck....
more playing tomorrow when it warms up a bit....
jim

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Offline wwwarbird

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 Can we get some close-up photos Jim?
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Wayne Willey
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Offline john e. holliday

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I don't know what you paid for the roll, but if it works you may have a gold mine selling to those that still use it.   I know what shows up on the bay gets more than I would pay.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Doc, I paid $26 & change for a 12 roll case, 21"x125', w/free shipping.
I'm spreading it around to club members.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Now if you sell that at $1.00 a running foot you should make your money back in no time.   I might even try silk span again, but I have 10 running yards of the poly material I'm now using.  H^^
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Offline tom creasey

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Here's my playing with it findings from today
bought me an olfa cutter and wacked up 38 yds off the roll  ( 25x36x 38 pcs)
dry mounted to an xcaliber wing and pulled fairly tight dry....doped down the edges.....le te and tip......
sprayed with spray bottle water and let shrink....
very little effort was taken to tighten dry and it shrank very tight upon air drying
almost good at tips with few wrinkles...on an xcalibur tip that's good....
one coat of dope and was all perfectly tight with few flaws at tips  and overall very taught
second coat of dope and sounds like a drumb .Actually pretty shiny for two coats (full strength)
not thinned dope....the xcalibur has three external spars on the outside at rib hight top and bottom so is a pretty hard test for silkspan along the front of the airfoil...
looks like a duck
feels like a duck
shrinks like a duck
comparing to my K&s and Sig it looks like a GM duck if not a 00 duck....
more playing tomorrow when it warms up a bit....
jim

Not sure what you mean by Duck? what is GM duck and 00 duck
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Offline tom creasey

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I messed up the quote thing.....LOL.....

  What does he mean by DUCK? and what is GM DUCK and 00 DUCK? What is GM silkspan? Is this the TIDI 916213? crepe paper right?
Tom
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Online Brett Buck

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I messed up the quote thing.....LOL.....

  What does he mean by DUCK? and what is GM DUCK and 00 DUCK? What is GM silkspan? Is this the TIDI 916213? crepe paper right?

   If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

      Brett

Offline tom creasey

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   If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

      Brett


I don't get it......I'll just wait for Jim's report
Tom
AMA 1073788


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