World shortage of silkspan ended - Frank D nominated for "Hero of the Reich"

[john e. holliday]

Better hurry as the site says only 2 cases left in stock.  See post #5 for link.

[Terry Caron]

Reply #17 lists 3 suppliers, AFAIK all the same stuff.

[david beazley]

 

Reply #17 lists 3 suppliers, AFAIK all the same stuff.

If there is any hint of it being good for C/L it will be discontinued by the manufacturer  

[Terry Caron]

Oh, no, David, it's definitely not good for C/l!
(Just for C/L planes) 

[Scott Richlen]

New bumper-sticker:

When Silkspan is Discontinued
    Only Discontinuees will have Silksp....

Ahhh, never mind.

[jim welch]

Scott...if it looks like a discontinue, acts like a discontinue, has plenty of silkspan, It's..you know...
never mind
 

jim

[Scott Richlen]

Jimmy:

You forgot "Quacks like a discontinue!"  You gotta include "Quacks like a discontinue!"   

Here's the bad part - I got a whole roll of that stuff courtesy of Frank D, HOTR, but I have 3 builds in finishing stage (oh crap, 4.  I forgot the Goldfish!)  I gotta glue some sticks together so I have something to cover! 

[George Albo]

Oz Medical Supply on Amazon gets their paper from McKesson who in turn gets it from TIDI. Just got a box, handles wet just like silkspan, did not tear. I stretched over a bowl just fine. Will be using it in near future as soon as I get workshop up and running.

Seems the price is stable at $26 so far with free shipping

https://www.amazon.com/Exam-Table-Paper-Creped-case/dp/B0020MC8EW/?ie=UTF8&qid=1486233024&sr=8-5&keywords=exam+table+paper

[jim gilmore]

anybody in sunny southern ca have any of this or want to split an order ?
i'm in palmdisaster ?

[Terry Caron]

Hey fellers -

I did a Google and found a single roll supplier, Tidi Part # 981004, $2.84/roll:
https://www.4mdmedical.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/388399/s/table-paper-crepe-white-21-x-125-roll/?CAWELAID=120141310000056386&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&scid=scplpTIDI981004G&sc_intid=TIDI981004G&gclid=CLnp4NfKrtICFc-3wAodf68Ovg
Dunno about shipping cost.

This has '00s of suppliers:
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=exam+table+paper+crepe&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=174224604193&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=77579100539467252&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9058809&hvtargid=kwd-34426394741&ref=pd_sl_6z0expjpz6_b

[Dan McEntee]

OO is light silk span, GM is for Gas Models and SGM is for small gas models.  I believe this designation came about in the late 1930's.

Is was discovered some where, I believe Japan,  that silk span tended to be a carcinogen, thus tea bags were no longer being made from it. Being the largest user, the stuff was no longer made.FWIW 
[/quote


    Hey Ty;
    I gotta correct you on this one. Your memory is usually pretty good, but I was wondering about the weight grading and looked it up in two old catalogs. One is a SIG #39 catalog, early to mid 70's and they call out 00 as light, GM as medium and SGM as heavy. I have a 1957 Hobbycraft Cyclopedia from Ace Model Distributors here in St. Louis and they list silkspan the same way; 00 for rubber powered models up to 36" span, GM for large rubber and light gas models, and SGM for large class "C" gas models and high speed control line models. That is the way I was thinking it was, and the SGM meant "super gas model."  To my estimation, from examining the paper sample I got from TIDI, the exam table paper is GM grade. I got into an older Twister kit and got the silkspan out of that and it is MUCH heavier and should be the SGM grade. I still need to pull out my stash of silkspan and check the TIDI sample against the old stuff I have that is still in it's original package. If you need silkspan heavier that the TIDI 916213, just double cover it.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Terry Caron]

One or more of the suppliers noted above list another product (517?) at about twice the price of that I bought - it may well be an "SGM" weight.
As reported earlier, mine weighs .69 oz/sq yd.

[Dan McEntee]

   Terry;
    How long was the piece you weighed to equal a square yard? I'm too tired and lazy right now for math!!! I'll cut a similar length of the stuff TIDI sent me and weigh it on my triple beam Ohaus balance scale. I don't think I have a digital scale that will weigh less than a gram.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Terry Caron]

5' 1 3/4", Dan, 300 grains on my scale.

p.s.
sample on it's way today.

[jim gilmore]

61 3/4 " how wide is the roll ? 20.9875 " ?

[Terry Caron]

Rolls are nominal 21", Jim.
A tiny fractional difference won't substantially change the weight of a square yard.

[Steve Schoenecker]

I ordered a couple of rolls from the vendor found by Terry in # 111

They were $2.84 per roll...  shipping was 8.95.  after checking shipping for 1 roll... I tried 2.. same shipping so I ordered 2.

I hate it when the shipping is so much more than the item you are buying  :-(

I will report after I try some...

steve

[wwwarbird]

[/quote
  To my estimation, from examining the paper sample I got from TIDI, the exam table paper is GM grade. I got into an older Twister kit and got the silkspan out of that and it is MUCH heavier and should be the SGM grade. I still need to pull out my stash of silkspan and check the TIDI sample against the old stuff I have that is still in it's original package. If you need silkspan heavier that the TIDI 916213, just double cover it.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

 The real question then, at least to me, is how does the doctors office stuff compare to the old Sig Medium? Lighter? Heavier? The same?

 Also, is Sig Medium the same as the K&S "GM" grade?

 

[Dan McEntee]

  I think SIG sold K&S silkspan, and the stuff they called Plyspan, that I have seen mentioned in a thread here on the list. An old SIG catalog I have shows Plyspan in light, medium and heavy also. I'm going to go through my stash tonight and weigh a section of the stuff TIDI sent me to see how it compares to what Terry got, and to  my old stuff. Stay tuned, sports fans!
    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Terry Caron]

The real question then, at least to me, is how does the doctors office stuff compare to the old Sig Medium? Lighter? Heavier? The same?

 Also, is Sig Medium the same as the K&S "GM" grade?

Sig heavy silkspan is .74 oz/sq yd, my Tidi weighs .69 oz, so a little lighter, Wayne.

[Dan McEntee]

   I just weighed a 61 3/4" length of the stuff TIDI sent me, and it weighed .9 ounces on my digital scale, and 23 grams on my Ohaus triple beam scale.
   I thought I had several boxes of old stuff, but when I made my last attempt at organizing things, I must have ditched the boxes so more would fit in the rubber maid tub! But I did have a box with a few 24" by 36" stuff, it was labeled GM and "Packaged by Fox Manufacturing. One of those sheets weighed 9 grams. I pulled a sheet of paper from a SIG Super Chipmunk kit that measured 24" by 36" and it weighed 12 grams. I would have to do some SERIOUS digging to see if I have anything that I would guess to be heavy or SGM. I have been collecting this stuff for almost 40 years and quite a large stash of tissue, silkspan, and silk, and one of these days I'll spend a day and sort it out, but right now it's just all heaped together in a couple of rubber maid tubs.
   My conclusion is that silkspan could vary from batch to batch if weighed accurately. Once I get the sample from Terry to examine, I'll have a good idea of what he has. I suspect it's a different part number that on the TIDI web site is called "every day". The stuff that is the 916213 part number is called "choice." My feeling is that the stuff I got got from TIDI is maybe just a touch heavier than your average GM grade silkspan. If you wanted a more heavier covering, just double cover with it. But as it is right now, I think it's good stuff equal to K&S GM or SIG medium silkspan.
   Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[Dan McEntee]

I ordered a couple of rolls from the vendor found by Terry in # 111

They were $2.84 per roll...  shipping was 8.95.  after checking shipping for 1 roll... I tried 2.. same shipping so I ordered 2.

I hate it when the shipping is so much more than the item you are buying  :-(

I will report after I try some...

steve

     Hi Steve;
    That stuff has the part number, 981004, that is called "every day" grade on the TIDI web site. If you have a scale weigh a 61 3/4" length and see what it weighs. It may or may not be the same as the 916213.
    The suspense is killing me!
    Dan McEntee

[Terry Caron]

If your Fox (.51 oz/sq yd) & Sig (.63 oz) are GM, yours at .81 oz (all converted from grams) is significantly heavier.
I haven't found a weight for K&S SGM but I'd be very surprised if it were heavier than your Tidi.

I suspect Steve's will be the same as what I have (McKesson's PN 18-1004), which seems to be a heavyish GM.

[Steve Schoenecker]

will do, Dan...  I Don't know if it has shipped yet...  I will weigh it when it comes.  I just got a scale for the shop... it is supposed to weigh in grams, grains, troy ounces, ounces, carats, and pennyweight (DWT) whatever that is... cost $6 or $7 anxious to see if it matches my other scales??  I have a couple of grain calibration weights... we will see...

steve

[wwwarbird]

   But I did have a box with a few 24" by 36" stuff, it was labeled GM and "Packaged by Fox Manufacturing. One of those sheets weighed 9 grams. I pulled a sheet of paper from a SIG Super Chipmunk kit that measured 24" by 36" and it weighed 12 grams.

 Sounds then like Sig Medium would be the equivalent of K&S GM, and what they supplied in their kits was the equivalent of SGM.

 FWIW, I talked with Mike Gretz about all of this back when the Sig Medium inventory dried up. I was hoping he might come up with a long lost stash, but it was not to be. I don't recall where he said they got theirs from, but he did say that is was NOT from K&S. He also said the reason Sig quit carrying it was because whoever that supplier was no longer had it available.

 Also, after following a lead from Dave Trible a while back I ordered some silkspan from Easy Built Models. I haven't had a chance to give it a try yet but it does seem very similar to the old Sig Medium. I did notice that the finish seems just a bit shinier than the Sig stuff, and maybe slightly heavier. Sometime in the next week or two I should be ready to give it a try over the solid areas of the Hutch P-38, fingers crossed.

[Dennis Nunes]

Received a case of Tidi Part # 981004 paper rolls. I only have some of Brodak's lite silkspan to compare it with and it looks and feels identical. I can't tell the difference. I did a small mockup and it acts just like the Brodak silkspan. I like it! 

Dennis

[George Truett]

One sheet of K&S SGM weighs 11.88 grams on my digital scale.

[Terry Caron]

What size is your sheet, George?

[Dan McEntee]

   Terry Caron sent a small sample of the paper he bought, that I will call "1004". It has the same last four digits in it's part number as TIDI has on the paper that they call "everyday" grade on their web site. I got a sample roll from TIDI of their part number 916213, what they call "choice" on their web site and the stuff originally mention at the start ofo this thread. I have been real curious if it is the same stuff or not. Terry sent me a small sample to check out. I cut a piece of my stuff the exact same size as his sample, ( 6 3/4" by 17"). I weighed them both, and my sample was a good half a gram heavier. That might not sound like much, by for a small piece like that, I think that's significant. Then I help both pieces up to look through them at the light of a table lamp with a lamp shade on it. I could definitely see more light coming through Terry's sample. It's like the "choice" grade has more fibers per square inch than the "everyday" grade. It may not be much heavier, but I would think it would fill with dope faster. In short, I think they are both good quality paper coverings, just that the 916213 part number is a bit heavier than the 18-1004, or what ever part number you have that ends in 1004. I don't think anyone will have any problems with either product, but I think there is at least a slight difference in weight.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[George Truett]

Terry,
SGM sheet is 24x36, as far as I know that is standard for K&S.  I also weighed a sheet of GM, just over 10 grams.  The GM is in the white K&S box, marked 12 cents a sheet, got a chuckle out of that.  George

[Dan McEntee]

Terry,
SGM sheet is 24x36, as far as I know that is standard for K&S.  I also weighed a sheet of GM, just over 10 grams.  The GM is in the white K&S box, marked 12 cents a sheet, got a chuckle out of that.  George

   Less than 2 grams a sheet difference. I just weighed an equivalent sized sheet of TIDI 916213, (21"by41.140" approx.) and it weighs 15.5 grams on my Ohaus balance beam scale. I would say then that the  916213 is approximately the same as SGM, and the "1004" numbered products is approximately the same as GM grade silkspan. I'm glad someone had a sample of K&S stuff still in original packaging! Thank you George!! I would have thought SGM was heavier than that, but I guess not. In weighing sheets that I pulled out of my mixed up stash. that is near what some of those weighed, so I'm convinced. Now just gotta build some models to cover with this stuff!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[James Brandesky]

Did anyone's research of these materials find  one that was the equivalent of light silkspan?  Something that could be used for rubber free flight models.

[Dave_Trible]

You might try tissue from Guillow's.  In looking for Japanese tissue I found ( on Ebay) Guillow's sold packages of this paper they use in their kits.  They DID NOT call it Japanese tissue and it isn't really.  I was looking for something very light and yet strong to cover a couple new stunt ships.  The Guillow's stuff were the only sheets large enough to cover in one piece so I ordered six packages-and it's not cheap this way.  I found it is more dense like Japanese tissue, has a grain like real silk span, shrinks pretty well but doesn't have a shiny side like Japanese tissue does.  I had used some 'silk span' from Easy Built models which covered very well but discovered it has very little strength once the dope cured and would poke a hole VERY easily.  I went back to tear a new piece and check it-no grain in any direction which means it has no fiber strength.
Anyway the Guillow's stuff I covered dry, like you do Japanese tissue. I then sprayed it with a water bottle.   I put on two thin coats of Randolph tautening clear dope and it is perfect and filled.  So far it is worth the expense and very light.  It would serve either as light silk span or Japanese tissue quite well.

Dave

[Donald Main]

Tom Morris sells doctor paper by the roll also. Think I paid $4 a roll.

[Dan McEntee]

Did anyone's research of these materials find  one that was the equivalent of light silkspan?  Something that could be used for rubber free flight models.

     Hi James;
  Read the thread completely and you will see what the weights for the two main types of Doc-Span that I have found. They are equivalent to what K&S called GM (medium) and SGM
  ( heavy) . There was also a recent thread where it was discussed that the lightest silkspan that was shown in some old catalogs was called "0" or "ought". Some guys seem to remember the light stuff going all the way down to "000" or "0000" but I have never found a reference to this numbers. Some of the old Sterling scale rubber power kits had some really light silk span that was probably the same as the K&S light product, but the lighter weight paper I got from Tidi is heavier that that. The Tidi number 18-1004 might be OK for larger rubber models like old Wakefields and other OT cabin and stick models like the Korda '39 Wakefield Winner or Lanzo stick fuselage model. Again, check out the whole thread here and there have been a few others. At the time I was looking into it I wasn't too concerned with free flight models, just mostly control line applications. Search out the Tidi web site and go through their product offerings on exam table paper as they might have changed in the last couple of years.. The stuff I have purchased has a grain that runs length wise on the roll, handles well when wet, and takes dope well, and when compared directly to known samples of old K&S  seemed the same to me in every way.  Hunt around the internet and eBay to see who has what for sale and current prices and such. The rolls are 125 long I think and will last a long, long time.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[John Lindberg]

"Easybuilt" models sells silkspan, has done so for quite awhile, Dave Trible says it is good covering in a construction article of "Diablo" design in a recent issue of "Stunt News"

[Dave_Trible]

"Easybuilt" models sells silkspan, has done so for quite awhile, Dave Trible says it is good covering in a construction article of "Diablo" design in a recent issue of "Stunt News"

It has somewhat lost its favor with me after having some finishes age over time.  There isn’t enough fiber strength to hold together.  A light finger touch results in a hole.  This wasn’t known until the dope aged and got brittle.  Thanks for the reference tho- the airplane is Desperado.  Diablo was an old time stunt ship.  A couple of my ships are still covered with it and are OK.  I’ve considered shooting a fresh wet coat of clear over them to soften and hopefully rejuvenate the finish.  I’m sure the Guillows material is much better.

Dave

[john e. holliday]

Well I use mylar either over or under the DOC paper.

[James Brandesky]

     Hi James;
  Read the thread completely and you will see what the weights for the two main types of Doc-Span that I have found. They are equivalent to what K&S called GM (medium) and SGM
  ( heavy) . There was also a recent thread where it was discussed that the lightest silkspan that was shown in some old catalogs was called "0" or "ought". Some guys seem to remember the light stuff going all the way down to "000" or "0000" but I have never found a reference to this numbers. Some of the old Sterling scale rubber power kits had some really light silk span that was probably the same as the K&S light product, but the lighter weight paper I got from Tidi is heavier that that. The Tidi number 18-1004 might be OK for larger rubber models like old Wakefields and other OT cabin and stick models like the Korda '39 Wakefield Winner or Lanzo stick fuselage model. Again, check out the whole thread here and there have been a few others. At the time I was looking into it I wasn't too concerned with free flight models, just mostly control line applications. Search out the Tidi web site and go through their product offerings on exam table paper as they might have changed in the last couple of years.. The stuff I have purchased has a grain that runs length wise on the roll, handles well when wet, and takes dope well, and when compared directly to known samples of old K&S  seemed the same to me in every way.  Hunt around the internet and eBay to see who has what for sale and current prices and such. The rolls are 125 long I think and will last a long, long time.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Thanks for the response.  I read the whole thread several times but could not find anything about a "light" version.  Was just hoping someone may have stumbled on something since then.  Most of my models are small rubber scale, and for my bigger RC Electrics, I use Polyspan.  Since I am not a competition guy, a little extra weight on my rubber doesn't matter to me as much as durability.  So I was just looking for a stronger alternative to tissue.  I may give the EZ Build stuff a try.  Of course I just placed an order a week or so ago that I could have added onto for the same shipping. Sigh...

The search continues...

[James Brandesky]

"Easybuilt" models sells silkspan, has done so for quite awhile, Dave Trible says it is good covering in a construction article of "Diablo" design in a recent issue of "Stunt News"

Thanks for the info.  I will look up that article.

[James Brandesky]

You might try tissue from Guillow's.  In looking for Japanese tissue I found ( on Ebay) Guillow's sold packages of this paper they use in their kits.  They DID NOT call it Japanese tissue and it isn't really.  I was looking for something very light and yet strong to cover a couple new stunt ships.  The Guillow's stuff were the only sheets large enough to cover in one piece so I ordered six packages-and it's not cheap this way.  I found it is more dense like Japanese tissue, has a grain like real silk span, shrinks pretty well but doesn't have a shiny side like Japanese tissue does.  I had used some 'silk span' from Easy Built models which covered very well but discovered it has very little strength once the dope cured and would poke a hole VERY easily.  I went back to tear a new piece and check it-no grain in any direction which means it has no fiber strength.
Anyway the Guillow's stuff I covered dry, like you do Japanese tissue. I then sprayed it with a water bottle.   I put on two thin coats of Randolph tautening clear dope and it is perfect and filled.  So far it is worth the expense and very light.  It would serve either as light silk span or Japanese tissue quite well.

Dave

Thanks for the tip.

I have a few sheets of leftover Guillows paper from models that I used colored tissue on.  I have gotten into printing my tissue so whatever I use has to be white, generally.  I think I will play with the stuff I have to see how it does. If all goes well,  I may order some.

[FLOYD CARTER]

Our ducks don't quack, they just get into trouble with the police.

[Ara Dedekian]

     Hi James;
  Read the thread completely and you will see what the weights for the two main types of Doc-Span that I have found. They are equivalent to what K&S called GM (medium) and SGM
  ( heavy) . There was also a recent thread where it was discussed that the lightest silkspan that was shown in some old catalogs was called "0" or "ought".



    I believe "GM" stood for gas model

    Ara

[FLOYD CARTER]

Normally, I would be happy to see GM silkspan back and available.

However, since I have discovered Polyspan, there is no more need for silkspan. 

[Avaiojet]

Normally, I would be happy to see GM silkspan back and available.

However, since I have discovered Polyspan, there is no more need for silkspan.

Since I have discovered silk, there is no more need for anything else.

About tissue. My wife buys stuff that comes in the mail from Neiman Marcus. There's always tissue paper in the box. The white tissue sheets are 18" x 24" and I must have 18 or so sheets. I have no idea why I save them?

How much of an 18 x 24 sheet is needed for a model? How many sheets?

For anyone that wants this tissue, if you don't mind a fold, I'l put them in a large business envelope and mail them out.

PM me.

[ed4353]

Hello all...
Am I correct in saying TIDI 916213 is equivalent to medium weight silkspan? And the TIDI 981004 is lighter weight?

Thank you.

Ed.

[Dan McEntee]

Hello all...
Am I correct in saying TIDI 916213 is equivalent to medium weight silkspan? And the TIDI 981004 is lighter weight?

Thank you.

Ed.
[/quote

    That sounds familiar. The info should be in this thread or a similar thread where we weighed the two part numbers against examples of original, genuine K&S silk span. I'll check the boxes mine came in but I believe that is correct.
   Dan McEntee

[Mike Krizan]

Can I get a sample of the silkspan replacement.  Willing to pay for the post and product.  Thanks, mike Krizan

[944_Jim]

Not without listing at least your state in your profile details page.

I know I've personally mailed off a good chunk gratis between here, RCG, and CEF (mostly there). This stuff comes in 125' rolls. I bet I still have more than I need for the next 10 years.

I usually send enough to do a 8"x19" tail surface/stabilizer/rudder...or a good chunk of in-filled or solid profile fuselage just so the recipient gets to play with a chunk.

I have Tidi 98-1004 21"wx125'. This is the everyday crepe.
The trick is finding A ROLL. I did a couple years back. The same vendor no longer sells singles. I have seen singles on eBay a time or two. Same for an open-stock case for cheap! I just didn't have any place to store the lot.
Shoot me a PM with email. I'll forward some links to ham-fisted use of the stuff.

[Gary Dowler]

Dont know if Arya came up with the term, but whoever did, I’d like to second the nomination of “Doc-Span” as the official term for our use of this product!

Gary