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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: RandySmith on April 05, 2006, 06:51:19 PM
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Is this the Complete WC list??? anyone know about this? when it started?
any Errors here?
Thanks
Randy
Year Name Country Model Engine Location
2004 Bill Werwage USA P-47 T-Bolt PA61 RE Muncie, IN. USA
2002 Xinping Han China Skywriter ?? 60 Sebnitz, Germany
2000 Xinping Han China Skywriter ?? 60 Landres, France
1998 Xinping Han China Skywriter ?? 60 Kiev, Ukraine
1996 Xinping Han China Skywriter ?? 60 Norrköping, Sweden
1994 Xinping Han China Skywriter ?? 60 Shanghai, China
1992 Paul Walker USA Impact OS 40 VF Hradec Kralove, Czechoslovakia
1990 Zhang Xiangdong China Skywriter Custom made 60 RE Blenod, France
1988 Zhang Xiangdong China Skywriter Custom made 60 RE Kiev, USSR
1986 Anatoly Kolesnikov USSR KA-10 ????? Pecs, Hungary
1984 Zhu Younan China ?????? ?35 Chicopee,USA
1982 Les McDonald USA Stilleto 660 K&B40 Oxelosund, Sweden
1980 Les McDonald USA Stilleto 660 K&B 40 Czestochowa, Poland
1978 Bob Hunt USA Genesis Mk IV OS 40 FSR RAF Woodvale, England
1976 Les McDonald USA Stilleto 660 Super Tigre 46 Utrecht, Holland
1974 Bob Gieseke USA Gieseke Nobler Fox 35 Hradec Kralove, Czechoslovakia
1972 Bill Werwage USA USA-1 Super Tigre 46 Helsinki, Finalnd
1970 Bill Werwage USA USA-1 HP 40 Belgium
1968 Josef Gabris Czechoslovakia Super Master MVVS 5.6 A Helsinki, Finalnd
1966 Josef Gabris Czechoslovakia Super Master MVVS 5.6 A RAF Swinderby, England
1964 Juri Sirotkin USSR Spacehound MVVS 5.6A ? Budaors, Hungary
1962 Louis Grondal Belgium Nobler Fox 35 Kiev, USSR
1960 Louis Grondal Belgium Nobler Fox 35 Budaors, Hungary
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All looks correct to me, Randy.
1960 was the first "Official" WC. Louis Grondal won using two Noblers. One was a Green Box used to fly the FAI pattern (2 rounds), and his "AMA Special" used to fly the AMA pattern (1 round). The AMA Special is what we refer to as the "Grondal Noblerl" now. This info was from a foriegn magazine, and phone conversations with Mr. grondal himself before his passing
Only point in question is that the MVVS 5.6 that Sirotkin used in '64 was actually a factory prototype stunt engine made in very low numbers (~20) for the USSR team.
Based on the tooling for their racing 29. That fact wasn't known to the world in '64.
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I wonder if it was typical of the MVVS engines where you could turn the case 90 degrees in any direction?
Randy
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I wonder if it was typical of the MVVS engines where you could turn the case 90 degrees in any direction?
Randy
I have an article that Peter White sent me from a British magazine which did a review of the factory stunt teams from the USSR. When I can find it, I will post it. The article was from later in the '60s, IIRC 1966-67. I believe it was engine #19.
I don't remember it having a separate front and rear housing. IIRC, it was from the late '50s design case. Gabris used a similar engine in his "Master" with which he won the "Critirium 'de Aces" in 1958.
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Bill
They did NOT have a separate front and rear housing, the top was the only part that was separate, and would turn in 90 degree segments, so you could have the exhaust out the front rear right or left side
That was what I was asking, if this is true or not.
The MVVS are not setup up like an OS FSR with a removable front housing, at least not the ones i have or have seen , I was curious to know if they have always done this or if they indeed had a differant configuration back in the 60s. I was asking specificly about that type of configuration
Randy
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Hi Randy,
I found the articles from Peter. First one appeared in the April 1962 "Model Aircraft" issue. The second one was for the same engine and appeared in the April 1967 issue of "Aero Modeler". It was designated the "Type5.6/1958 (.346 ci) Stunt engine. Reported to have made 20, Peter Chinn acquired number 19.
It was a direct decendant of the 5.0 speed MVVS. ball bearing, RISE design. It looks like somebody at MVVS must have worked for Dooling! The center case is a copy of a Dooling 29, it is one piece, and the piston looks like a Dooling with two large holes in the skirt on the intake port side.. It has a front housing and a rear housing. Exhaust period was 140 degrees Transfer period was 120 with 10 degrees exhaust lead. Non metallic valve rotor. The center crankcase portion has the big hemispherical intake bypass like a Dooling.
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A story on this engine is that as stated they were developed from the MVVS 29 speed engine. (Was it Studeny who held 29 world record for a time with this?) There were not too many made of either type, and the Czechs ran out of 29's, and had to convert some of the 5.6's back to 29.
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I would guess 1964 Sirotkin would also be the MVVS 5.6A.
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""Only point in question is that the MVVS 5.6 that Sirotkin used in '64 was actually a factory prototype stunt engine made in very low numbers (~20) for the USSR team.
Based on the tooling for their racing 29. That fact wasn't known to the world in '64."""
do you know that for sure?
Did he just tell people it was a combat 35? It was supposed to be differant than the Gabris engine
Billy told me they hated that engine, it would burp and do weird things at times, and After 70 Gabris went to a HP 40
I had always heard these were secret engines. We may never know the exact truth about these
Randy
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""Only point in question is that the MVVS 5.6 that Sirotkin used in '64 was actually a factory prototype stunt engine made in very low numbers (~20) for the USSR team.
Based on the tooling for their racing 29. That fact wasn't known to the world in '64."""
do you know that for sure?
Did he just tell people it was a combat 35? It was supposed to be differant than the Gabris engine
Billy told me they hated that engine, it would burp and do weird things at times, and After 70 Gabris went to a HP 40
I had always heard these were secret engines. We may never know the exact truth about these
Randy
Hi Randy,
As you know, I have a strange affliction for these World Championship airplanes from '60 to '68. Especially being the "Classic Period" freak I am. :o
I don't know it for "sure", but just going on correspondence with a few flyers who competed in the World's at the time.
With the position the Communist pilots were in, I'm not real sure what information they could divulge to the "rest of the World". A good picture is in and article of the Gabris' Master from Brussels in 1958. That plane had an upright exposed engine.
I do have an Akrobat 42 of the type that Sirotkin used in his "last" stunter", his "Ilushyn", from the '69 Russian National Championships. Got it from a fellow in Chechoslovakia (sp?) a year or so ago.
As to the article, I can send you a copy of both the engine review (engine #19 of 20, 1967) and the 1962 article where not much was known about it. It was later reported that the USSR teams had to go to factory reworked production MVVS 5.6 engines when the supply of usuable "special engines" was used up. From all accounts, the MVVS was out of top level international competition by 1970.
Any other information would be greatly received. Ian Russell (rustler) knows some things about these engines, too. In fact I was attempting to buy one from him a year or so ago. Just didn't have the funds. :)
One thing for sure! Props used were VERY close to 10-4 on the "Stunt" 5.6.
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HI Bill
I too have a very keen interest in classic planes and motors, as you do.
There has been a large amount of missinformation on a lot of the engines used over the years in many competitions, also some engines were not as that were stamped on the side.
About the MVVS combat and converted 5.6 ,I would like to see the article and pictures of one of the motors, that would explain a lot. The question I asked was does either of the 2 MVVS motors (if they are 2) have a bolt on top case? or if the configuration is exactly like a OS FSR? Maybe Ian knows for sure?
But back to the reason for the post, information, does anyone know what plane and engine was used to win in 1984?
Did all the Chinese use ST60s or was there a home made clone of the ST 60 used , as rumor has it?
any updates to what I have so far?
Randy
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Hi Ian and Bill
Is this the motor from 66 68?
Randy
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Randy:
The 88/90 winner from China Zhang Xian Dong made his own rear exhaust engine. It was not a 'Tigre. He had two. My friend Dave Chang is occasionally in touch with him. He now lives in Canada.
Also - the ship that Xinping Han flies is derived from Zhang Xian Dong's Skywriter, but has evolved some. Chang is working on getting plans to that one.
Cool stuff. Hope this helps.
Rick Campbell
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Hi Rick
Yes all info I can get helps , thanks.
I knew it wasn't a ST 60 as posted on the internet site I got this from, because it was a rear ex engine
Which leads me to think maybe the others were not ST 60s either?
I would like to find out for sure one way or the other.
I did find out the Chinese used a 35 in th e early 80s before going to the larger RE 60s
Thanks for the information
Randy
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Hi Ian and Bill
Is this the motor from 66 68?
Randy
Hi Randy,
Except for the carb, of course, that is the same basic picture that is in the April '62 Model Aircraft "Engine Test" article that is designated the "Type 5.6/1958". The venturi (restrictor) was in place of the carb and had the NVA through it, similar to the present G-51 style. That is "supposed to be" the one used through '66, according to what I have read and heard. I do not have any information for '68. I do have info on Sirotkin's '69 Stunter, and the quote that the "entire" USSR stunt team used the Akrobat 42 (.4272) at the '70 WC.
I am making copies of the articles tomorrow at work for you.
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Hi Randy,
Zhang Xiangdong now lives in Canada. Have you contacted him? I am sure he can
fill inthe Chinese engine lineage.
Someone on SSW from Canada is close to him, but I'm not sure who it is. I just know he brought Zhang over and let him live with him a while. Zhang even sells plans to his Skywriter original fully take apart WC plane.
Steven Y. put that list together (if you got it from the PAMPA site) basically from word of mouth.
Is it true that Billy won in '70 with the ST 40, or did he have the 46 in there by then? I "think" Billy said he had the 46 for the Worlds, but can't remember.
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Hi Randy,
Except for the carb, of course, that is the same basic picture that is in the April '62 Model Aircraft "Engine Test" article that is designated the "Type 5.6/1958". The venturi (restrictor) was in place of the carb and had the NVA through it, similar to the present G-51 style. That is "supposed to be" the one used through '66, according to what I have read and heard. I do not have any information for '68. I do have info on Sirotkin's '69 Stunter, and the quote that the "entire" USSR stunt team used the Akrobat 42 (.4272) at the '70 WC.
I am making copies of the articles tomorrow at work for you.
Hi Bill
Thanks that explains a lot to me now. I have updated the info to what I have found out.
That is the engine that Gabris used in 66 and 68, I would like to find out about the reported 35 combat motor that Juri used in 64???
And from what Bill told me in 1970 he used a HP 40 , but I knew he was switching back and forth the 2 engines
I have seen Zhangs aircraft up very close in much detail. Kim Doherty used one at the 2004 Worlds and Is a very good friend if Zhangs. I met got to meet Zhang at the 2004 Worlds
Thanks for helping with the info
Randy
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Ref. Randy's reply No.11, other folks know precise dates better than me. But I can say the pic. is of a later engine, not one of the original series. Obviously it is geared towards r/c, and has throttle fitted. The web in the exhaust stack is drilled and threaded to take a rudimentary "silencer", - more of a straight tube outlet of the type that these days leads to a more effective muffler.
The original series did not have this web.
I'm going out on a limb and saying the timing of both engines is the same.
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Ref. Randy's reply No.11, other folks know precise dates better than me. But I can say the pic. is of a later engine, not one of the original series. Obviously it is geared towards r/c, and has throttle fitted. The web in the exhaust stack is drilled and threaded to take a rudimentary "silencer", - more of a straight tube outlet of the type that these days leads to a more effective muffler.
The original series did not have this web.
I'm going out on a limb and saying the timing of both engines is the same.
Hi Ian,
While the R/C carb and web in the exhaust stack are "new", the rest of that engine is pretty much virtually identical to the picture in the '62 and '67 Engine Reviews I have. I will post these tonight or this week end.
Have you found another one? :)
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Hi Ian and Bill
Is this the motor from 66 68?
Randy
That looks like some of newer versions (could be 66/68). Orriginal Czechslovak (not Russian) MVVS 5.6A was started 1957 and it was dedicated to c/l stunt. That time the silencer was not used and so the engine did not have that thread visible on your picture in exhaust and also did not have r/c carb.
Beside the "A" version they did later sever other versions including speed clone 5ccm and also r/c clones.
The orriginal version had piston with 2 rings and drum made from umatex instead of steal.
The case was from 3 parts as visible on picture - front housing with ball bearings, the middle part with sleeve and back part with the drum.
Jozef Gabris used that engine already at first unofficial WC in Bruxeles at Expo 1958 with model Master.
The model used 66 / 68 was Supermaster.
http://www.controlline.sk/foto/memorial/master.jpg
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That looks like some of newer versions (could be 66/68). Orriginal Czechslovak (not Russian) MVVS 5.6A was started 1957 and it was dedicated to c/l stunt. That time the silencer was not used and so the engine did not have that thread visible on your picture in exhaust and also did not have r/c carb.
Beside the "A" version they did later sever other versions including speed clone 5ccm and also r/c clones.
The orriginal version had piston with 2 rings and drum made from umatex instead of steal.
The case was from 3 parts as visible on picture - front housing with ball bearings, the middle part with sleeve and back part with the drum.
Jozef Gabris used that engine already at first unofficial WC in Bruxeles at Expo 1958 with model Master.
The model used 66 / 68 was Supermaster.
http://www.controlline.sk/foto/memorial/master.jpg
Hi Igor,
Thanks for verifying my information (see my post including the MASTER above). I have a 1958 Gabris "Master" ready to assemble, at least I have cut out the parts! I was looking for a 5.6A or "similar" MVVS to power it, but I just haven't run across one. I have decided to go another route withthe power train. I *might* use my Akrobat 42 which is in excellent shape.. The MASTER is a surprisingly large 35 size stunter.
I also like the fact that it has an upright engine installation. An interesting departure came with the "Super Master". Gone was the constant chord wing, turtle deck, and upright engine.
Still, having built and competed with a Spacehound, I like the Ilushyn the best! x:)
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re MVVS5.6
The prop used by Gabris was 190mmX100mm or a 200X100. the engine was an off shoot of the 5cm3 engine. I have just recived 1 of the5cm3 engines. And yes very few were made Ihave run the 5.6cm3 on a trip to the other side of the world. But U.S. stunt flyers for the most part do not rear in take engines. And keep in mind these engines were developed during hight of the cold war.I hope to be able to post a picture of the 5cm3 soon .
The later engine I belive was plain bearing.
Al
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Those 5ccm was speed clones (speed models that age was 5ccm max)
the plain bearing MVVS was 5,6 AL and they was designed to attract more young people to stunt ... but its quality was far worse and needed rework
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Hi Randy
I made a mistake yesterday the props used on the MVVS 5.6 should have been 240x100 or250x100mm. (Not190x100mm or 200x100 as stated )
Al
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>>>MVVS 5.6 should have been 240x100 or250x100mm<<<
Right, the producer of them was Sibl
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IGOR and ALDON
Thanks all this information helps. Still looking for more info on the Chinese
Randy