Woodley fire

[Larry Renger]

There was a fire in the Sepulveda basin. How much got burned? Any damage to the flying facilities?

😱 ☠️ 🫣

[Dave Hull]

Larry,

Short answer: I don't know yet. The fire department reported a lat/long which I mapped out to be in a row of trees separating the cricket fields, which is northeast of Woodley. As you know, the flying field is south of Woodley. It was reported earlier as 75 acres, but the estimate was reduced to 30 acres. Pretty sure that is all going to be north of Woodley and probably into the nature center. I would also point out that most of the R/C overflight area burned in a pair of fires late last year, so even if this latest fire jumped Woodley, there was not much left to burn on "our" side except the trees lining the road. At least I hope that's true. In any event, it is small potatoes compared to the Palisades fire. That rained ashes on my house yesterday and especially last night as the wind veered around. Today I had ashes falling on me as I worked on a plane inside my garage. I didn't have any real trouble breathing as long as I chewed each bite. Really bad for the people north of San Vicente Blvd in Santa Monica. Deepest sympathies to all those affected.

Dave

[Dave Hull]

One of our members had to evacuate this afternoon as the Palisades fire burned over the top of the coastal Santa Monica mountains and is headed into the San Fernando Valley. We are hoping for the best. The winds overall are way down, but the fires are so well established that they are creating their own wind.

[john e. holliday]

I have not seen where they tell of how the fires started.  It is not like when the electric power lines started that fire.   Also where are the forestry fire planes hiding at?

[peter jurczyk]

One of the water dropping planes was hit by a drone and it made a hole in the wing so it cant be used anymore. Not sure what started fire but I do know they have arressted someone that started the kenneth fire.

[Rusty]

I have not seen where they tell of how the fires started.  It is not like when the electric power lines started that fire.   Also where are the forestry fire planes hiding at?

The news said a arson arrest was made.  It didn't say he started all the fires, but was caught starting one.

[Air Ministry]

" Also where are the forestry fire planes hiding at?"

Apparently the high winds have put them off .

Needs some of the R.A.F. ' press on regardless ' spirit . The TSR 2 was designed to conture follow at 200 foot , back in the early 60's . F 111 would carry the weight a C 130 can !
so paper mache  drop tanks of water cetra - thrown in . Getting in first in front of it , at the embreo stage , would save a bit of grief & angst .The Albatoss woudve helped , if you
wre talking to your komradskis in Moscow , rather than otherwise .



Id guess it s about spruce goose hull size . Seeing it in 92 land at the old seaplane base in Auckland , you appreciate the MASS of the thing , off the step it sinks , ands gotta be powered up to move .
So a lot of grunt to get it to move , and lift out of the water , once ' on the step ' it accelerates like blazes . Refilling the water tank it just skims , so has none of that bother .

But Id think all of those fighter jocks could be better employed throwing tanks of water from their hot ships . As most of that multi purpose fighter bomber stuff will carry a lotta weight , letalone if you dont
need a million gallons of fuel aboard .

A lot off these things were made from newspaper & varnish , so were ' throw away . With short ' in use ' life . Like 12 hours . Fill & Fit .

General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark
Fighter Bomber
Empty Weight   21.535 kg   47.477 lbs
max. Takeoff Weight   45.360 kg   100.002 lbs

Call it 40.000 Lb payload at 8 Lb Gal. so thats what it could ' throw in . With a bit of deering do .

[Brett Buck]

" Also where are the forestry fire planes hiding at?"

Apparently the high winds have put them off .

Needs some of the R.A.F. ' press on regardless ' spirit . The TSR 2 was designed to conture follow at 200 foot , back in the early 60's . F 111 would carry the weight a C 130 can !

You aren't contour-flying at 200 feet through the LA hills in a TSR 2, F-111, etc. Maybe a Pitts Special. The hills are extremely rugged and much steeper than most people would be able to believe.

      Brett

[Dave Hull]

Los Angeles County Fire leases two of the Canadair water bombers, and has since the early 1990's. They are normally based at Van Nuys airport and fly in formation thru the pattern right above our control line area. Actually, they usually do a right departure turn before they are directly overhead. That puts them only 11 miles from where the Palisades fire started. My understanding is that they made some runs immediately on it (I'd have to go check when, and how many) but the reality is the wind gusts over the mountain top reached almost 100 mph. You aren't going to fly that terrain in that kind of wind because it is extremely turbulent. These mountains aren't very tall by California standards, but they rise directly from sea level to about 3,100 ft or so. The helicopters (there are a bunch) are better at precision and getting into difficult terrain, but are less capable than fixed-wing in the wind so they get grounded when it is no longer safe. And--the difficult fires only become difficult because of the wind. Without the strong Santa Ana winds, this would have been just a spot fire. Saying that the pilots should just grow a pair is ignorant. I've watched numerous fires where they brought in tankers and I rate the pilots I saw as having great big cast iron ones. Remember, you don't always get a clear look at the ground or the target because sometimes the approach direction you have to take for the wind puts you thru the smoke.

I was on the beach on the second day when the Presidential entourage flew south from there and into LAX. Generally there are five aircraft, including the V-22's. They didn't fly thru the smoke.

Now imagine that you are 150 AGL and desperately trying not to pancake into the mountainside due to downdrafts. The winds are 40 mph+, sustained. The relative humidity is in the teens or lower. You drop what you brought. How much of that drop even hits the ground? How much is so widely scattered that it is ineffective?

We can always do better, but the truth is that 90% of what I've read and heard reported in the news---and especially the really vitriolic comments on social media--are proof that people really do not understand the situation at all, but that doesn't concern them because they are really angry (oftentimes about things that have nothing to do with the fire itself) and spew on everyone. The nonsense about the lack of water is a classic example. Reading about how the delta fish caused this disaster is about as relevant and credible as saying that a guy in Nevada or Utah farted and that caused the extreme winds. My position is that if you can't draw a picture of a hydraulic grade line then don't lecture people (or pretend you know something about water supply) about what is "wrong in California." The other one I just love is a cadre of morons who endlessly lecture that proper forest management means "clearing out the underbrush beneath the trees." The natural California habitat is this area is Chaparral. When that burns you return to grasslands and start over. The only trees are pretty much buried at the very bottom of a narrow canyon where water might run for a day or two after a good rainstorm. You would have to burn all of these mountains every year or two to make much of a difference in reducing the fire danger. The quickest way to start an all-out fire in this situation is to try prescribed burns under perpetually dry conditions with no water in sight and winds that reverse course twice a day as regular as breathing.

For those that maybe haven't seen up close the vastly different types of terrain here, and how crazy fires can be, go back a couple of years to the wildfire out in the desert--yep, the open desert--in the Antelope valley. If I recall correctly it was southeast of Edwards AFB. You wouldn't think putting that out would be hard because there's not much to burn. You would be wrong. It was hard to put out. There were strong winds with gusts to 80mph and they chased that fire right across the desert. It took them a week to get containment. And another week to be sure all the hot spots were really out.

If anyone wants to understand better what I'm probably doing a poor job of describing, go to Googlemaps. Hit the little yellow man. Click on the blue dots on the trails above the Pacific Palisades. Get a feel for it. Look at where the three water tanks are. Look at the problem with the limited number of roads in and out. Know that before the fire, they had at least one of the roads closed to avoid access for arsonists. Know that in the new subdivision just to the west of where they think it started there are no overhead power lines. They are all underground. Something that one "news writer" couldn't be bothered to check before writing a big expose where they interviewed a Twitch Company manager who wants to profit from this by selling his proprietary electric grid glitch-recorder.... Maybe there were other fires started by power lines, but not very likely here, unless it was the power line going to one of the water reservoirs.

Oh, and the guy that was flying the drone that the tanker crashed into? Give him a choice--ten years in jail or donate both thumbs to the UCLA medical center for research. It is conveniently just down the road and hasn't burned down yet. There is just no excuse any more for drone incompetence.

[john e. holliday]

These idiots and that includes the media should be reprimanded for flying drones close to an area that needs the air space for taking care of things.   

[Dave Harmon]

Here is an FAA website showing all NOTAMS.
There are some TFR's pertaining to the fire areas.

https://tfr.faa.gov/tfr2/list.html

[Brett Buck]

You aren't going to fly that terrain in that kind of wind because it is extremely turbulent. These mountains aren't very tall by California standards, but they rise directly from sea level to about 3,100 ft or so. The helicopters (there are a bunch) are better at precision and getting into difficult terrain, but are less capable than fixed-wing in the wind so they get grounded when it is no longer safe.

   Just like the flood discussion from last year - people just don't get it, unless they have seen it and thought about it. The terrain in the West, and in particularly around LA, is *extremely rugged*, with actual cliffs, ravines, and even in town there are steep slopes and hills. It's like cowboy movies (many of which were filmed there) and also low enough elevation to have very heavy vegetation. There are no good analogs east of the Rockies. These hills have all been pushed up in very recent geological time, so they haven't eroded much, and are still going up.

    People outside of the area also do not get the idea that it doesn't rain in the sense they are used to it, so at this point, that last consequential rain around there was in February - almost a year. The rest of the time it gets up to 100 degrees for weeks with 10% humidity and frequent and predictable high winds. It's a formula for fires, they are natural aside from the fact we build huge cities in it.  You go out in the woods in Arkansas, drop a match on the ground, or leave your campfire unattended, shoot a Roman Candle into the underbrush, and it goes out with a hiss. Even a single spark in the LA hills (or the Sierra Foothills, or the Shasta-Siskiyous) it starts a fire that quickly grows and is difficult to put out.

     Brett