Wings and More Wings All Kinds of Wings

[Dennis Moritz]

THE WINGS:
Tudor ARFs
Vector 40s
Cardinal ARFs
P40 Brodak Arfs
Oriental ARFs
RD1
Chizzler
Tanager

I have all of the above. Putting together stunt planes. How would you rate the potential performance of these wings? Some are quality planked foamies. Others build up. Fuselages, tails surfaces, to be designs of my choice.

Do you recommend stock moments or mods? Use standard flaps or an alteration?  Standard stab or larger.

[Perry Rose]

I used a Cardinal wing and an Impact stab/elev to build a plane. It's the best flying plane I have. Then I bought a Cardinal kit and reversed the wing tips and built a larger 1/2 inch thick stab/elev, moved the stab 1.5 inches aft and used electric power. flys great.

[Skip Chernoff]

I would stick with the Vector wing or the Cardinal. Every Vector I've ever flown flew very nicely. I have a Cardinal Evolution built by Joe Adamusko that is only 6 oz. I plan on building Joe's Reno Mustang around it.

[Randy Powell]

I like the Chizler wing, but then, I like Nobler wings, too.

[Paul Wescott]

THE WINGS:
Tudor ARFs
Vector 40s
Cardinal ARFs
P40 Brodak Arfs
Oriental ARFs
RD1
Chizzler
Tanager

I have all of the above...

Counting the plurals as 2 each, that’s 13.  13 wings without airplanes?  Was there a “Wing of the Month” club that I missed out on???

Potential performance: Don’t rate the wing rate the pilot.  Best pattern I ever saw, on a very blustery day, Brett Buck flying his Skyray 35.  You know the one, the Skyray with the high performance (bone stock) flexi-wing.

Stock moments or mods: Mods definitely.  Might not make much difference in flight but 25 Minutes expounding on the perceived benefit is way better than saying “The moments are stock”.

Standard flaps or mods:  Mods definitely (see Moments, above).

Standard stab or larger: Make a chart of all the wings and their area.  Add stab area.  Add another column where you divide wing area by stab area to get the ratio.  Sort the chart by ratio.  Take the top 2 (2 largest stabs per wing area) and build those to plan.  Take the rest of them and increase the stab area until the ratios fall between the top 2.  Unless you don’t want to.  Re-draw wing & stab top view for all but the top 2 (top 2 are unchanged, no need to re-draw) full size.  Lay drawing or cut-outs of wing/stab top views on floor.  Stand on a chair or step stool, not too high but not too low either, and look down upon the updated top view/s.  If they look like they will fly, build them.  If they look ridiculously mis-proportioned then give each an eccentric name like Pamela Anderson or Netzeband Doodlebug and build them anyway.  If they are not stellar flyers then simply never let anyone else fly them and tell everyone they are the best flying plane ever.  You will absolutely get away with it.  I mean, read a few posts on this forum, everyone else is getting away with it why shouldn’t you?  Now keep your hands off Pamela Anderson and go build your own Doodlebug...

Wait.  This isn’t the humor section?  I’ll have to try and figure out how to move this.

Unless I don’t want to.

Merry pre-Christmas all.

Paul W.

.

[Lyle Spiegel]

Use the Cardinal wing and build full fuselage version known as Cardinal Evolution.  Not sure where to get plans. Possibly Elliot Scott?

[Trostle]

I like the Chizzler wing, but then, I like Nobler wings, too.

In his Chizler article (Flying Models, Nov 66) Dick Mathis wrote:

"If you have an old 'Nobler' kit you can build the wing to it without the wing tips and use it in your 'Chizler,' since they are are similar.  The main difference is that the skin sheeting (leading edge, trailing edge and capstrips), are 1/32" thicker than on a 'Nobler,' for more resistance to waarping."

His original Chizler was 40 oz.

Keith

[Brett Buck]

THE WINGS:
Tudor ARFs
Vector 40s
Cardinal ARFs
P40 Brodak Arfs
Oriental ARFs
RD1
Chizzler
Tanager

I have all of the above. Putting together stunt planes. How would you rate the potential performance of these wings? Some are quality planked foamies. Others build up. Fuselages, tails surfaces, to be designs of my choice.

Do you recommend stock moments or mods? Use standard flaps or an alteration?  Standard stab or larger.

    If you are designing a new airplane, then we would need to know what engine you plan on using, because the sizes of these wings is all over the place.

   Of those, the ones with the most potential are probably the Vector and the Nobler/Chiizler. The others are either not tapered or not particularly good. Straight wings are easier to built but if they are already built then you won't need to make that compromise.

   Brett

[Brett Buck]

Potential performance: Don’t rate the wing rate the pilot.  Best pattern I ever saw, on a very blustery day, Brett Buck flying his Skyray 35.  You know the one, the Skyray with the high performance (bone stock) flexi-wing.

.

  Thank you very much! The Skyray airfoil is actually excellent, like an improved Flite Streak. And you almost certainly saw the (very much not stock) balsa version that pulls about 6" of dihedral at times.  The stock spruce/plywood version is much stiffer,. so stiff it is reduced to kindling at the first opportunity.

     But as always, what makes what you saw possible is the *engine*, not the airplane or the wing. I have flown it with a Fox 35 and a McCoy 19bb in very similar conditions, and while I could probably get it through a pattern, it would take all of my skills and a massive amount of fudging. And you would not be impressed with the quality. Exactly the same airplane with a different engine acts as if gravity had been cancelled for the day.

    That's why Dennis' question can't be answered very well in a vacuum. I could probably make the best-flying airplane with my recommended choices and unlimited engine selection, but if you want to make the best-flying airplane you could make for, say, and ST46, it changes the answer.

    Brett

 p.s. when I was first testing the "new" 25LA, it was in conditions like you describe, and at a contest. All the advanced fliers with their super-power high performance machines were all trying to be scarce and hemming and hawing trying to come up with reasons not to fly. Circle was open for a long time, I did a few flights. But I wanted to shame them into flying, so I got the beginner winner for the day to come over and do flight after flight, full patterns,  with the Skyray. Didn't work, I got the engine broken in for me, but they steadfastly refused to continue!

[Skip Chernoff]

Dennis,Joe Adamusko just sent me a set of plans for the Cardinal Evolution. I'll share them with you. Skip

[Ken Culbertson]

In his Chizler article (Flying Models, Nov 66) Dick Mathis wrote:

"If you have an old 'Nobler' kit you can build the wing to it without the wing tips and use it in your 'Chizzler,' since they are are similar.  The main difference is that the skin sheeting (leading edge, trailing edge and capstrips), are 1/32" thicker than on a 'Nobler,' for more resistance to warping."

His original Chizzler was 40 oz.

Keith

Do the Cardinal.  But if you must,  the 1/32 increase to the Nobler sheeting basically makes it a Gieseke.  Round the LE a bit more and scrap those God awful tips and you have a pretty good wing. 

Ken

[Dennis Moritz]

Paul W is the wisest of the wise. Brett appropriately circumspect, knowledgeable, accomplished, a secretive rebel. Randy, my fellow LIBERAL, fittingly moderate in tone, civil in manner, we'll get smashed anyway. Keith one fine idea. Skip my buddy knows me well, it's NOT THE IDEA so much as THE EXECUTION. The murder. Get off the pot here's the plans build the damn thing.

Paul W, how high that chair?

Thank you all.

Accompanying List. Engines and More Engines ALL Kinds of Engines.

1 PA 61
4 ST 46
5 ST 60
10plus FP40s
6plus Tower 40s
5(maybe) LA46
Some LA 40
Unknown number of FP25s
Lower unknown number of FP20s
Enyas
10 Fox 35s at least 2 40th Anniversary. (Haven't used one in 40 years, bought only one, age 12 in NYC. The rest happened into my possession.)
2 Fox 32 (Very nice to run these.)

I have sinned. Obviously. Flagrantly.

Many of the wings were free. Some of us happened on the Mother of All Estate Sales. The wings and planes were free. The engines, piles and piles of them, were bought by the pile. Make a pile, set a price. Never more than 300$ for 30 plus rare engines.

Sidebar, what's the vote and opinions, ST46 vs LA46. Definitely should be a separate subject. But, it's related.

[Brett Buck]

Sidebar, what's the vote and opinions, ST46 vs LA46. Definitely should be a separate subject. But, it's related.

   Don't take a vote, 46LA by a wide margin - assuming it is stock. We could only dream of things like 46LAs back in the days when ST46s were the norm. Even if the performance was a wash, which it certainly isn't, the reliability would make it a no-brainer.

   Given that selection, it's really easy - build a model using the Vector 40 wing and a 46LA.

   Brett

[Dennis Moritz]

Thank you Brett

[Alan Buck]

I would go with the vector wing with the la 46
in a profile or full body

[Paul Wescott]

  Thank you very much! The Skyray airfoil is actually excellent, like an improved Flite Streak. And you almost certainly saw the (very much not stock) balsa version that pulls about 6" of dihedral at times.  The stock spruce/plywood version is much stiffer,. so stiff it is reduced to kindling at the first opportunity.

     But as always, what makes what you saw possible is the *engine*, not the airplane or the wing. I have flown it with a Fox 35 and a McCoy 19bb in very similar conditions, and while I could probably get it through a pattern, it would take all of my skills and a massive amount of fudging. And you would not be impressed with the quality. Exactly the same airplane with a different engine acts as if gravity had been cancelled for the day.

    That's why Dennis' question can't be answered very well in a vacuum. I could probably make the best-flying airplane with my recommended choices and unlimited engine selection, but if you want to make the best-flying airplane you could make for, say, and ST46, it changes the answer.

    Brett

 p.s. when I was first testing the "new" 25LA, it was in conditions like you describe, and at a contest. All the advanced fliers with their super-power high performance machines were all trying to be scarce and hemming and hawing trying to come up with reasons not to fly. Circle was open for a long time, I did a few flights. But I wanted to shame them into flying, so I got the beginner winner for the day to come over and do flight after flight, full patterns,  with the Skyray. Didn't work, I got the engine broken in for me, but they steadfastly refused to continue!

Skyray 35 Mark III
April 26th, 2015
Not stock?  No wonder I’m a terrible builder / flyer.  I ask a simple question about a model and people make stuff up and give me wrong information like “that’s a stock Skyray with a stock engine that’s how Brett does it”.  Yikes.
Photos below I hope...

[Ken Culbertson]

Skyray 35 Mark III
April 26th, 2015
Not stock?  No wonder I’m a terrible builder / flyer.  I ask a simple question about a model and people make stuff up and give me wrong information like “that’s a stock Skyray with a stock engine that’s how Brett does it”.  Yikes.
Photos below I hope...

Interesting paint job.  Did you use a sponge to put the camouflage on the canopy?   

Ken

[FLOYD CARTER]

Several of my own designs use Cardinal wing ribs.  I buy a set of laser-cut ribs from Brodak.  Good airfoil and accurate.  Wingspan can be adjusted by rib spacing.  Saves much work cutting out ribs.

[Brett Buck]

Interesting paint job.  Did you use a sponge to put the camouflage on the canopy?   

Ken

   That is unpainted repairs from one of the ~40 crashes (no exaggeration) it has undergone. Shortly after this picture was taken it got a bit more -  because the lines are hooked up backwards.

   It is worse that you can see here, because  the fuselage has been repaired numerous times and it had a "Hobbypoxy two-step" paint job in the first place - sand it off smooth, apply a coat of epoxy paint (with a brush), let it cure, sand it, and apply another coat. End of paint job. It actually looked just fine that way, you could see the grain but otherwise it was perfectly acceptable. I recommend everyone try it with airplanes like this. Then, the nose has been reconfigured numerous times to fit maybe 25 different engines, and some of it was sealed up with blue Aerogloss I found in my junk box which was a different color.

   But there is a method to this madness. Of course I could spend the same sort of time and get it nice shiny and neat. But, then, people might be intimidated or afraid to fly it. As it is, everybody can see that it has led a pretty hard life and that one more ding won't make any difference. So they are willing to just try it, anyone from an absolute rank beginner can fly it.

    Brett

 

[Brett Buck]

Not stock?  No wonder I’m a terrible builder / flyer.  I ask a simple question about a model and people make stuff up and give me wrong information like “that’s a stock Skyray with a stock engine that’s how Brett does it”.  Yikes.
Photos below I hope...

     Don't worry, the stock airplane flies fine - as long as you put a good engine on it. Losing 6 ounces from the plywood to balsa wing made nearly no difference with the 20FP or "new" 25LA. It's just more fragile than it could be, all that plywood and spruce just ensures that the wing self-destructs in the first crash.

    There are very few intentional performance changes from the stock airplane, only one appears to be mandatory.

    The airplane is the stock configuration with the following exceptions:

•   Replaced the single-wheel gear with two wheels, old Hallco RC gear cut in half and bent the other way to go up the fuse sides. Much less dangerous for takeoffs, particularly on grass, and conventional landings.
• Stock airfoil and outline, ribs made of 3/32 balsa, full ribs at every station (replacing half-ribs with full ribs, just because here is no weight concern and its easier), Spar is 1/8x1/2 medium balsa, sheeting is 3/32 contest balsa. This is entirely about durability, not performance, even though it is *6 ounces* lighter
• Added 1/2" to elevator chord. Intent was to improve cornering, but it at best was a mixed bag, because the elevator was not the problem. This will be reverted to stock next time I play with it or if I build another one
• MANDATORY - remove the rudder offset, make it absolutely dead straight ahead, and do not airfoil it or do anything that is intended to make the model yaw

That is it, a non-issue. The engine makes all the difference, use a modern 19-25 with a 9-4 prop to start, that is, 20/25FP, "new" 25LA, or a Veco 19bb. Use them STOCK IN ALL RESPECTS, no changes, including the intake and STOCK SPRAYBAR assembly. Rear needle as it comes, no changes necesssary.

     Brett

 
     

[Rick Wetzel]

Dennis, I also have a copy of the Cardinal Evolution plans if you can't get them from Skip. On mine, I cut off about 1/8" of the flaps to slow the controls down a bit, and I  hollowed out the wing tips. An LA 46 would be ample power for sure. Mine uses electric : E-Flite 15, 2800 mAh 4s battery,  50 amp ESC. If you want my copy of the plans let me know.
Rick

[phil c]

Dennis, you only need maybe 30 more wings and you can build a true multiplane full size plane.  Some wings to lift your multiplane, a few for control surfaces, others to hide your face from the crowd........which you are guaranteed to attract.
It might even carry enough that you could help out Merry 'Ol Saint Nick.

[Dennis Moritz]

Rick. They are not to be trusted.

[Dennis Moritz]

Phil's eggnog is potent. And prophetic.

[Ken Culbertson]

Cardinal Wing, LA46 - A marriage made in heaven.

Merry Christmas - Ken