Windy's Cardinal

[Gil Mc Millan]

Can someone tell me a little about the background of the Cardinal design?
Like when did Windy first design & build the model? Was it a success? What type of construction was used? Were the "numbers" different from today's ideal? Where would I find a picture?
It seems like there is little current interest in the model, was it too new to be a "classic" & too old to be current?
Given the popularity of the profile Cardinal & the full bodied Cardinal 40 I'm curious about the original. I'm guessing that it was popular during the time I was away from stunt & busy with RC (shamefully).
Thanks, Gil

[Gil Mc Millan]

Thanks Ty, are they still kits, or did you build them? If so, what were the results?

[55chevr]

I suggest you contact Jose Modesto.  He is a good source of information about Big Jim's designs.

[Mike Ferguson]

The original Cardinal was flown at the 1988 Nats in Tidewater. IIRC, it placed third or fourth. Built-up wing, ST60 power.

Like most of the planes Windy flew from 1987 on, it was based on Big Jim Greenaway's Patternmaster design.

Plans for the design (and an article about the plane) were published in the November 1992 issue of Model Aviation.

[Richard Walbridge]

Can someone tell me a little about the background of the Cardinal design?
Like when did Windy first design & build the model? Was it a success? What type of construction was used? Were the "numbers" different from today's ideal? Where would I find a picture?
It seems like there is little current interest in the model, was it too new to be a "classic" & too old to be current?
Given the popularity of the profile Cardinal & the full bodied Cardinal 40 I'm curious about the original. I'm guessing that it was popular during the time I was away from stunt & busy with RC (shamefully).
Thanks, Gil

Gil,
I am the sole owner of Windy's printed velum originals of the 92 Cardinal.  I had them scanned to pdf should you want a set of drawings.

Richard Walbridge
Central Valley Stunt Mafia
AMA 755468

[Gil Mc Millan]

Thank you Richard, I think I do want the 92 Cardinal plans.
I'm currently flying the Bordak profile Cardinal & a Tom Dixon Cardinal (which I assume is the Cardinal Evolution 40).
Do you know what the difference is between the 92 Cardinal & the Cardinal 60, both are shown on Windy's defunct website.
Thanks, Gil

[Zuriel Armstrong]

I have Windy's yellow 92 Cardinal that flamed out on Top 5 day. I'll post some pictures when I get home. The plane has been flown with ST51's, Tiger 60's on pipes, and four strokes. It is an excellent plane.

I have seen some of his vellum drawings and think they are very cool. I'm glad they were saved and preserved.

[Bill Little]

(snip)
Do you know what the difference is between the 92 Cardinal & the Cardinal 60, both are shown on Windy's defunct website.
Thanks, Gil

Hi Gil,

The '88 Cardinal was a true Candy Apple Red and got 20 points at the NATS that year.  The '89 Cardinal was the same model, stripped, and repainted Kawasaki Green (Chartruese!).

I have both plans and the '92 is "slightly smaller" and was designed to use a piped engine for power.  Both planes have REALLY thick (especially the '88-'89) root ribs.  The '88 is like 3" think.  Windy had a run of top 5 finishes along that time including at least one 2nd.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[peabody]

Hi Bill...
I wonder.....the red Cardinal..."Tradition" was, I believe a foamy and had a BUNCH of different power....finally came apart and Dave Midgley has it to rebuild. The green Cardinal ended up in Mass. I believe....

I think that the 92' version was a little smaller, and flew the best....

Have fun!

[Mike Ferguson]

Hi Bill...
I wonder.....the red Cardinal..."Tradition" was, I believe a foamy and had a BUNCH of different power....finally came apart and Dave Midgley has it to rebuild. The green Cardinal ended up in Mass. I believe....

I think that the 92' version was a little smaller, and flew the best....

Have fun!

Tradition was the 1987 plane, the original red Cardinal was the 1988 plane. Two different ships.

[peabody]

Thanks Mike....
Was the red one the one that he flew into the OTS guy? Maybe then rebuilt it to the MoPar green one?

[Gil Mc Millan]

Thanks Everyone for responding.
I've learned more than I expected about Cardinals. Can I assume that all the models mentioned were Cardinal 60's, & that the 88, 90 & 92 designations were the year built & not different designs?
Is the Cardinal 60 recommended for current PAMPA stunt?
Gil

[Scott Richlen]

6 members of Northern Virginia Control Line are currently building a version of the Cardinal Evolution 40 as a group build this winter.  I selected this plane to build because in past years I saw two of them fly at Brodaks and both flew excellently.  Also, many of our club members have Cardinal profiles which they are quite happy with.  So, for them the Evo 40 would be a good choice to step up to a first full-size fuselage stunter from flying a profile.

Last year Tom Morris had an electric power Evolution 40 at Brodaks and it flew very well.  In fact, Tom produced the kits that we are currently building.  You might contact him to see if he would put a kit together for you.  A significant advantage of building a Tom Morris Evo 40 is that it is designed to use his wing and fuselage jig blocks.  This makes for a very straight and accurate assembly.  Plus the wood supplied by Tom is very light.

I've included a picture of Joe Colly sanding his wing (note the wing jig blocks) and also a picture of Dave Reichard and Joe examining Dave's build.

Scott

[Gil Mc Millan]

Thanks Scott, I can confirm the performance of the Evo 40, if you look up at my starting post, I'm flying it now along with the profile version.
That's why I'm looking into the larger version. I communicate regularly with Tom Morris & admire his building techniques & I learn from his experience.
Both of my current Cardinal's are IC, I'm planning a electric version now.
Gil
 

[Scott Richlen]

It would be interesting to see what one would do to update Windy's Cardinal.  For instance, if Paul Walker revised the 60-size Cardinal based on his experience with the Impact, or if Fitzgerald or Buck did it, what would they change?  Smaller flaps?  Larger elevator?  Less wing area?

Scott

[Gil Mc Millan]

I agree with you Scott, as much as I wanted history, I am hoping that the guys in the know offer their thoughts on the Cardinals strengths & weaknesses. When & if I build a Cardinal 60, I'm certainly not above making changes that would improve performance. Also, I really need thoughts for converting it to electric.
Gil

[Scott Richlen]

No offense to Windy, but the big Cardinal is dated and probably a couple of generations (design-wise) behind what is being built these days.  For starters, I'd guess that the flaps are too large.  Brett Buck has previously made general design comments on stab to wing area ratio and also stab to elevator ratio; I'd expect that they would apply here.

[Mike Ferguson]

Thanks Mike....
Was the red one the one that he flew into the OTS guy? Maybe then rebuilt it to the MoPar green one?

Yes - the original 1988 one (still the best flying Cardinal I ever saw, IMO) was the one that mid-aired into an OTS ship. And it's the one that received 20 appearance points at the 1988 Nats and was rebuilt into the green Cardinal with "The Twenty Pointer" written on the wing.

Tradition had a deep pipe belly that eventually got chopped off - IIRC, it was originally built to take the ST.60 and a piped Rossi 40. That one was a motor workhorse for a long time. I think they shared similar aerodynamics, but I'm not aware what the differences between them - if any - were. My memory's not *that* good. 

[Chris McMillin]

I flew both of those models and they were very different. The foam Tradition was heavy and flew that way.
The built up candy red version was very light and flew in a precise way, even though I only flew it twice and that was with an ST 60 on a tuned pipe!
They are good model designs, well trimmed and flown with practice they are certainly capable models.
I think the built-up candy red one weighed less than 60 oz, like 58 or 59. One of Windy's lightest models ever.
Chris...

[Dalton Hammett]

Gil   I don't if it might be of help to you but I had one of the 92 CARDINAL kits and did some swapping with Dave Evar of Cleveland as he wanted it.  I believe he is building it currently

Daltonh

[proparc]

Does anyone have a plan or PDF they can email me?

Thanks in advance.

[Bill Little]

Thanks Everyone for responding.
I've learned more than I expected about Cardinals. Can I assume that all the models mentioned were Cardinal 60's, & that the 88, 90 & 92 designations were the year built & not different designs?
Is the Cardinal 60 recommended for current PAMPA stunt?
Gil

Hi Gil,

No, there is more to it other than a simple year designation.  The '92 version is definitely smaller than the '88-'89 (same model) version.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Mike Ferguson]

Hi Gil,

No, there is more to it other than a simple year designation.  The '92 version is definitely smaller than the '88-'89 (same model) version.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Just a quick point to clarify - the 88 and 89 planes weren't the same one.

The 1989 Cardinal was yellow. The original candy apple red 1988 version got rebuilt into its green incarnation a little bit later, in either 1990 or 1991.

I don't think any of them were *exactly* the same; they all had little refinements and changes from year to year.

[Bill Little]

Just a quick point to clarify - the 88 and 89 planes weren't the same one.

The 1989 Cardinal was yellow. The original candy apple red 1988 version got rebuilt into its green incarnation a little bit later, in either 1990 or 1991.

I don't think any of them were *exactly* the same; they all had little refinements and changes from year to year.

Thanks, Mike.  I just had it in my head that Wendy repainted the '88 Cardinal the next year.

What vintage was the "V-Max"?

Thanks, again!

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Mike Ferguson]

Thanks, Mike.  I just had it in my head that Wendy repainted the '88 Cardinal the next year.

What vintage was the "V-Max"?

Thanks, again!

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Hmm. Now that I think about, the V-Max - the "Sidewinder", as I think it got called - was 1990, and the green Cardinal was 1991. I think the Sidewinder had a lot of Werwage influence to it; IIRC, that one owed at lot more to the USA-1 and Junar in terms of design than the Cardinal.

[Chris McMillin]

My Copperhead V-10 is an iteration of the V-Max Sidewinder, though mine was inverted mount PA 61.
V-Max Sidewinder had an OS 46 VF, wraparound header to a belly mounted pipe with a straight through exit via slightly too small arrowshaft extension, 4 inch leading edge sweep, with a short nose.
The only Werwage influence would be a pipe and the aesthetics, it was still a thick winged, large tailed model ala Big Jim. I used a wing foam set from Windy for mine, he sent me two others that I gave to Dan McEntee and they are still there in his garage. Very thick airfoil.
Chris...

[Gil Mc Millan]

Am I correct in thinking that the 92 Cardinal was the final version....at least under the Cardinal name?
What changes would be needed to bring the 92 into a current version as an electric?
Gil

[55chevr]

Gil -
Sina Goudarzi and Jose Modesto have built a number of "Tweener"-s.  This is a mid sized (Inbe'tween') Big Jim style plane.  The last few were electric powered using E-Flite Power 32 motors. I have a take apart Tweener that I am a getting ready to paint that is electric powered.

[jose modesto]

A little backround on the 1992 Cardinal
The reason for the smaller 1992 cardinal were a two part challenge 1) the dominance of the west coast models. Walker,Fancher,and later Dave Fitz were flying smaller models with higher performance. 2) The ST60 was out of production and the ST51 had promise. By the end of the 1990 flying season windy and Big Jim began the ST51 development. Hemy head,os max needle head shims and different size venturi.

Below are models that were designed within a year of windys 1992 Cardinal
Paul Walker Impact 1990 NATS champ and many others NATS wins.
Ted  Trivial persuit 1992 second. 1993 first and second team trials.
How many changes would you make to these models. NOT MANY same with 1992 Cardinal

As to e power.get a set of Hunts crossfire plans with a hunt mount and copy front end. If you can swap similar weight in front of CG as gas about 23 oz then change nothing.
In the 1992 cardinal plan windy has a note about light and heavy models and the flap modification that is required
Jose

[Gil Mc Millan]

Thank you very much Jose, that's exactly what I wanted to hear....& expected.
I just wanted for someone with first hand experience to confirm what I thought. As said earlier in my post, I'm flying the Cardinal Evolution 40 & the Cardinal profile & they both perform very good (above my abilities). I plan to follow your advise about Bob Hunts hard mount, I'll also ask him to cut the wing cores. This isn't my first electric.
Any other suggestions &/or history about the Cardinal will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again, Gil

[jose modesto]

Hey Chris. Is that a griffon on the wing. By the 1990's windy,mike Rogers and Bob Baron were complaining to Big Jim that  there models ST60 Patter Master 780 SI were not as competitive as the west coast smaller models.1989/90 Big Jim came up with a new design  he called Griffon in 1990 windy built two models the SIDEWINDER and the GRIFFON.
The 1990 models were a departure from the 25% wing sections (measured like Al Rabe with out flaps) the Griffon and the Sidewinder were smaller models under 700 sq vs the PM at 780. Lower sapect ratio Thinner airfoils with smaller tails and flaps.
Big Jim based these models on his 1971/2 Modified Banshee. Yes a sig Banshee.
On the Sidewinder windy installed a soft mount with a Vmax. The Griffon also used a side mounted Vmax
These models had nothing to do with Werwage they were a response to the west coast type models
1990 was my first NATS as a grounup for me,and it was special.in the 1990's i worked in new Jersey and was in the little ferry shop quiye often. In 1990 I built My first Pattern master with a super tiger 60 windy showed me how to buff the model.
Jose Modesto

[Gil Mc Millan]

Thanks Joe, you & Jose are filling in the blanks for me.
Would you mind sharing details & pictures of your "Tweener" with me? When I get to the construction stage I'll do the same.
Gil

[jose modesto]

The Cardinal line stars life as a Big Jim Pattern master. The wing is almost 3" at high point of root rib. 1982 windy returns to fly stunt and builds his large Sweeper. Windy finishes in 21st place. Same year Windy  is introduced to Big Jim. At this time Big Jim was working on high aspect ratio models 7to1 withblarge flaps. Big Jim gives windy a set of cores for the 900 windy names it sweeper.in 1983 windy build the Mig 72" span models with huge flaps
Windy begins a run of five years in in the top  five,with the high aspect ratio models.
By 1988 windy asks Jim for a more conventional model Enter the Pattern Master. Big Jim built the first PM in 1972/3  and the one most ate aware of in 1979.
Windy takes the PM numbers and build and artistic masterpiece the RED CARDINAL 20 pointer. After the  mid air
The models comes back as the green Cardinal 20 pointer.
Recap from 83 to 87 windy has the high aspect ratio models 88-89 pattern masters. 90 Sidewinder and Griffon, 91 green Cardinal,92 smaller Cardinal 93 tweener.
Tweener story later.I'm at the beach in DR and the Barby is calling.
Photos wen I get home don't have my computer at beach house.
Jose Modesto

[Gil Mc Millan]

Thanks Jose, enjoy....I'll gladly wait, this is very informative.
Are there plans for the Tweener?
Gil

[Zuriel Armstrong]

I finally had some nice weather to get the plane out for pictures.  The nose is now very soft and has several cracks on the top block.  It could probably be made flyable, but I would rather preserve it.  There is no telling how many flights this plane has or how many people have flown it.  I have flown it personally with three different motors, one being an OS 52 four stroke, a very nice combination.  I also flew it with both the Double Star 60 Lite (side exhaust) and Ball Bearing motors.

Zuriel

[peabody]

When I got my first PA 51 with pipe, Windy gave me the yellow one, as I hadn't finished my SV.....
I really didn't like the way the thing flew....pulled WAY too much......and was light overhead....
I flew it about 20 flights and gave it back.

My SV flew better.....lighter on the lines, and my Moonie better than that....

It is pretty though.....

Jose....didn't he build the yellow one above and a green one  with sheeted/built up wing the same year for the Nebraska Nats?

Have fun

[Zuriel Armstrong]

Rich,

I thought the same thing flying it.  I never tried to trim it other than how it was when I got it.  It flew best for me with the OS 52 four stroke.  It would be neat to know how many people have flown it and all of the motors that have been installed.

[jose modesto]

Rich those models were the mid size tweeners with the shovel tails. The yellow model was the 92 NATS. The paint scheme was changed wen windynrebuilt a wing panel.
Windy built two tweeners one was the green Harly,and the blue and yellow NATS model.
John Deoctavio was flying the Harly version at flushing meadows during this time. I recently played a  video for Sina of Windy and John D flying these models.
Jose Modesto

[Randy Cuberly]

Thanks Jose, enjoy....I'll gladly wait, this is very informative.
Are there plans for the Tweener?
Gil

Hi Gil,
I have one of Windy's original kits for the 92 Cardinal that I would be willing to sell.

If you're interested send me a PM here or a e-mail at randy@cuberly.com

Randy Cuberly

[Gil Mc Millan]

Thanks Randy, sorry that I didn't reply sooner but I was out of town for a long weekend & didn't have a computer.
I have the plans now & am studying......also waiting for you guys to offer your thoughts as to how the "92" performs & what might be needed (if anything) to bring it up to date & convert it to electric. As I mentioned, I'm flying a IC Cardinal Evolution 40 & know how it performs & I really like it.
I'm not considering the 92 as a nostalgia project, I want a modern electric competitive model. Is your kit a foam wing, that's what my plans show?
Is the 92 what you guys are referring to as a "tweener"?
Thanks, Gil

[Randy Cuberly]

Thanks Randy, sorry that I didn't reply sooner but I was out of town for a long weekend & didn't have a computer.
I have the plans now & am studying......also waiting for you guys to offer your thoughts as to how the "92" performs & what might be needed (if anything) to bring it up to date & convert it to electric. As I mentioned, I'm flying a IC Cardinal Evolution 40 & know how it performs & I really like it.
I'm not considering the 92 as a nostalgia project, I want a modern electric competitive model. Is your kit a foam wing, that's what my plans show?
Is the 92 what you guys are referring to as a "tweener"?
Thanks, Gil

Gil,
I would strongly reccommend you contact Bob Hunt and get Cross Fire plans and even a wing etc...It's a great airplane with the latest design configurations for electric...nothing to convert or redesign...build it an fly it!  That's what I would do if I wanted to fly Electric competitively.  I just have too much invested in IC stuff including 60+ years of experience there.  I'm very dogmatic I guess, I just can't seem to get serious about electric! 

Randy Cuberly

[Gil Mc Millan]

Thanks for your recommendation Randy, what you suggested was exactly my first thought.
If I do go forward with my Cardinal thought, I would discuses it with Bob before starting & certainly ask him to cut the wing cores.
I'm sure that the Crossfire would be a certain success, I may do both. I've always just "liked" the Cardinal design & wanted to explore its possibilities, mainly as learning project. This forum gives me the opportunity to get the opinions of others with actual experience with the full sized Cardinal designs.....also a history lesson.
Thanks again, Gil

[Chris McMillin]

Hey Chris. Is that a griffon on the wing. By the 1990's windy,mike Rogers and Bob Baron were complaining to Big Jim that  there models ST60 Patter Master 780 SI were not as competitive as the west coast smaller models.1989/90 Big Jim came up with a new design  he called Griffon in 1990 windy built two models the SIDEWINDER and the GRIFFON.
The 1990 models were a departure from the 25% wing sections (measured like Al Rabe with out flaps) the Griffon and the Sidewinder were smaller models under 700 sq vs the PM at 780. Lower sapect ratio Thinner airfoils with smaller tails and flaps.
Big Jim based these models on his 1971/2 Modified Banshee. Yes a sig Banshee.
On the Sidewinder windy installed a soft mount with a Vmax. The Griffon also used a side mounted Vmax
These models had nothing to do with Werwage they were a response to the west coast type models
1990 was my first NATS as a grounup for me,and it was special.in the 1990's i worked in new Jersey and was in the little ferry shop quiye often. In 1990 I built My first Pattern master with a super tiger 60 windy showed me how to buff the model.
Jose Modesto

Hi Jose,
What's happenin'?

No, it's a snake (with a shield and a lion from the family crest). I named mine after the Dodge showcar engine, Copperhead V-10. Mine is the Sidewinder V Max wing. It's wing is pretty thick, but with the four inch sweep and huge chord it's percentage is probably a little less than a Pattern Master, they being so thick and all. It's of course a Big Jim product. The aspect ratio is about 4:1. I think it has a 59 inch span. Mine has larger flaps than Windy's and comes out to 750 squares. I slowed the flaps, and cut them down too. It flies well enough but I never stayed with it long enough to really make it well trimmed. I flew it a season in SoCal/AZ and placed a few times but never beat Bob or Keith.

Yes, they both had Hyde or Violett soft mounts backplate mounted and I used them on the Golden Falcon for a few days when I first started flying it. I removed them and sent them to Billy when he needed some, and I used the hard mount aluminum spools on the ST.60. I flew the Sidewinder a couple of times when we were flying at Bradley's so Windy could look at it, but I was pretty afraid to hurt his Nats ship so was pretty high and wide with it. It made me want to use the 46VF.

The Griffon was much smaller, and had a thinner airfoil. It was pretty light, and looked beautiful. I never saw it fly.

Chris...