Windex for Attaching Monokoat Trim

[JHildreth]

I have heard that trim pieces cut from Super Monokoat can be applied using Windex.  Reportedly, the Windex will activate the adhesive enough to anchor the trim pieces in place.  I have tried to do this with some test samples and I can't say that I have been successful.  As I understand the process, you use a liberal amount of Windex to wet the surface and once the trim piece is in the proper place carefully squeegee the trim piece down onto the surface.

In my tests I tried to follow this process fully.  After allowing the test pieces dry for a couple of days I tried to determine how well the pieces had adhered to the surface (in this case Klasskote paint).  I inserted the point of a #11 blade under the corner of the trim piece and pried up enough to get hold of.  I found that the piece was slightly attached to the surface, but I don't believe it was due to the Monokoat glue.  It seemed to me to be simply air pressure holding the pieces in place since all of the air between the surfaces had been removed during the squeegee process.  There was no residue of Monokoat glue that I could detect left on the base surface.  If this is the case, I don't believe that air pressure alone is sufficient for a long term bond.  Sooner or later an edge or corner will lift and the trim will depart during flight.

In the past, I have used the Monokoat solvent for applying the trim.  I haven't been very happy with my efforts because I can't get rid of all of the little bubbles before the glue sets up.  I have tried to punch a hole at the edge of the bubbles to squeegee the air out, but my experience is that there are so many bubbles it is impossible to get them all.

I would appreciate any help you can offer.

Joe

[Target]

You might try using windex first, and when happy with lack of bubbles, and placement, use the monocote trim solvent around the edge with a q-tip.
I'm sure you'll get this dialed in, because i have seen the incredible craftsmanship in your building. Hope my tip helps point you on the right track.
Kind regards,
Target

[Dave Hull]

Joe,
In my experience, the glass cleaner does not activate the Super MonoKote adhesive. As proof of this, you can do the test I did which was to lay some covering down on a countertop, soak with glass cleaner (I used Windex) and then scrub it with a paper towel. None of the adhesive or color transfers to the towel.  So as you suggested, I believe it just lets you float the trim where you want it to go, and using the squeegee method, you can work all the air out from under it. Some might say the “vacuum” between the base and the trim is holding it there. As Chris pointed out, activating the adhesive around the edges using a Q-tip dampened with MonoKote solvent can then be done. Don’t get it too wet because the adhesive—which is your contrasting color—will bleed.

I put MonoKote trim over MonoKote base all the time using heat. It is much more prone to bubbles over open bays because it is more difficult to work it down. Even when I am very careful. I just did one of those recover jobs last month. It is fine, but it is not perfect. The windex/solvent method is better unless you are putting down overlapping trim, which I nearly always do. More below.

I have used Super MonoKote trim over KlassKote base (planked areas) several times. The first plane was actually a refinish job just to test out the new materials and methods. The second was my real project. They both turned out great and I was pleased. I tried to attach a photo of the second plane.  (Before I could attach the photo, my computer went nuts. When I log in to Stunt Hanger, I keep getting infected with the Zeus fake virus, which dumped my reply, so I had to write this post over again….)

Here is what I ended up doing:
I needed registration and racing numbers on the project. These were variously 1” high (registration), 1-3/4” and 3” racing numbers. The final project used shadowed numbers, meaning I cut out identical numbers in two trim colors using the stacking method, and then shifted the shadow set slightly—hence there are two layers of trim over the base color. I was using red numbers, black shadow numbers, over white KK basecoat. Note that with the multiple trim layers I find that you need the iron to adhere the top layer to the bottom where it has to go over the edge of the middle layer. I can’t recall if I ever tried MonoKote solvent and squeegee to do this, and thereby eliminate the iron completely? (ie. Windex for everything and solvent/squeegee to hold and seal everything. But see the comment on solvent compatibility with KK below.)

I put the numbers down with the tip of a Black Baron(?) iron at a moderately low setting. It takes time but works. I have had people tell me that using the special trim iron allows you to get it down without bubbles. I think the smaller iron would give better control, but can’t give you an opinion because I don’t have one.

I do not believe I used MonoKote solvent. I do not recall if I had compatibility problems with the KK paint or not. What I did was clearcoat the plane after trim and decals using KK clear. People warned me that KK clear has an amber tint and would be noticeable over a white basecoat. On my sample plane sitting right in front of me, I only cleared half the wing (just over the trim section) so it is super easy to compare, which is exactly why I did it that way. Remember, this plane was refinished just to verify the methods that were new to me. It is different, but much of that is the gloss and depth—and just a slight hint of ambering. With the clearcoat, the overall finish and the buried trim is bulletproof.

Overall, I was very pleased with the results. I have both of the KlassKoted planes right in front of me to check them for bubbles instead of relying on my imperfect memory of how perfect it all turned out---and thereby lead you to grief. The 1” numbers have no bubbles. The 1-3/4” numbers have no bubbles. The 3” numbers have a few bubbles. They are fairly small, not very “deep” and only really noticeable when oriented to get a glint from the light source. Still, the bigger ones were not all perfect. I think this was a skill and workmanship issue. On one fuselage number set, there are zero bubbles. On the opposite side there is one very vague one. But on the wing I can see maybe a dozen. Did I do the wing first? Can’t say. But the results are not the same.

I wish you continued luck with your project,

Dave

[john e. holliday]

I have done the Windex treatment to get the trim/graphics on place.   Once I have all the air pushed out using a paper towel I then take my Monokote iron and set the heat to where I can hold it in my hand with out hurting myself.   I then go over all the trim/graphics to adhere them.  So far no problems with lifting.

[Mark Mc]

Joe,

Here is a video I made of using Windex and Glad Press n' Seal to apply checkerboard Monokote trim to a model last year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Ludstz6xI&feature=youtu.be

Don't know if this helps, but it worked for me.

Mark

[Dan McEntee]

  I don't know about Windex but dish washing detergent in a spray bottle has worked for me in the past.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Fred Underwood]

The Windex mentioned is original formula with ammonia.  I couldn't tell if it truly mildly activated the solvent or adhered it with surface tension.  I used a squeegee to remove any excess and waited until the next day.  I could catch an edge and peel it up. I sealed the edges, either with solvent, lacquer thinner or acetone, or a trim iron.  When I tried other products there was more tendency to blister or bubble under the top layer if further heat was needed.  Such some re-shrink after a day in the sun.  I read that it has mostly been used with Monokote.

[Dave Hull]

The Windex I tested was "Original Windex" with "Ammonia-D."  As far as I can tell, Ammonia D is just a catchy sounding trademark name for marketing purposes. The ammonia is a low percentage constituent in their formula. Probably too low for those of us trying to use it as a grease/oil remover. The MSDS does not list their active ingredients--just water--so it is pretty useless. But it does list the pH as 10.7, which is considerably more alkaline than pure water, which is probably due mostly to the added ammonia. But I do not think that ammonia, even in higher concentration is a solvent for the adhesive on MonoKote. Of course, no one is saying what the MonoKote adhesive actually is, either. But there is zero evidence that ammonia makes the MonoKote stick.

As far as using dish soap in a highly diluted solution to float on MonoKote trim I would not recommend it. People are going to use what has worked for them, and they may be satisfied with the results. I get that. But here is my reservation:  the ammonia and water constituents in Windex will completely evaporate. The only thing left behind would likely be the blue dye in trace amounts. That is not true for soap. For illustration purposes, think of a very soapy mixture, sprayed on to a piece of glass and left to dry. There is soap residue left behind and it is almost like a mold release. This is not going to promote adhesion. Yes, the more dilute the mixture and the more you squeegee out the less this matters. But if the MonoKote is water-break-free clean to begin with, you don't need soap or ammonia to float the trim. It just makes it easier. So if I had Windex handy, I personally would choose it first. Or, if I didn't, and the trim was not complex, I would try plain water first to see if I could float it sufficiently to get it lined up. If not, then I'd probably put a couple of drops of Ivory into the empty Windex bottle and get to work. After all, in the middle of the night, you do what you have to do to be ready to go flying in the morning....

Dave

PS--Just for kicks, I also tested Fantastik Heavy Duty all Purpose Cleaner. It is not a solvent for MonoKote either. Its active ingredients are different but would not promote adhesion either.

[Phil Krankowski]

I had good results getting pieces in place with windex then hitting them with an iron just hot enough to get color change which is glue activation. 

I had better results than dry and static or tape.  I still got wiggles on the skinny bits.

Phil

[JHildreth]

Thanks to everyone for the replies.  The information is very helpful.

Dave, your posts are quite thorough.  You have put a lot of time, effort, and thought into the tests you have done.  Thank you for passing on your thoughts.  I miss flying with the Sepulveda and Whittier Narrows folks.  I hope things are going well out there on the Left Coast.

Joe

[Dave Hull]

We miss flying with you, too, Joe.

Any time you happen to be out here, let us know and we'll try to get you out to the field with something to fly.

I did a follow-up test on the MonoKote Trim Solvent with KlassKote. I suspected that the solvent would attack the paint--and it does, immediately. A wet Q-tip applied to the well cured and aged Orange "Garbage Can" Cardinal fuselage (KK over polyspan) transferred color on the second pass, which was only a second or two after the first pass getting it wet. I would avoid this method because it may leave the base color less fuel resistant; it may cause a noticeable color change or gloss change, etc. no matter how slightly dampened your Q-tip might be or how careful you are keeping it just around the edge of the trim. If you really needed for other reasons to go down this path, I would check to see if a Kohinoor pen could handle the solvent and see if that would allow you to "trace" around the raised edge of the trim and get the smallest amount in the most controlled way. It might work just fine!

By the way, I would be careful cleaning anything painted with KlassKote with isopropyl alcohol. I have found that it softens the paint. Why isopropyl and not glow fuel would be an interesting question for a chemist!

I was thinking a bit more about the bubbles I got on my project:  some on the wing and none really on the fuselage. Here is the only difference I came up with. I was pretty generous with the paint on the wing, but the paint on the fuselage did not flow out as well, or perhaps it got the overspray from the wing. So on the fuse with the "rough" basecoat the trim numbers went down almost perfectly, but over the glossy wing, they did not. Maybe the rougher finish allows the air to bleed out from underneath easier as the ironed edge is walked down? This might be something to consider if you are going to use the KK flattener on your project. I don't recall if you are going for a more scale look or a modern warbird restoration gloss?

It is interesting to follow along with your project.  The stuff you are sharing is gold.

Thanks!

Dave
Valley Circle Burners