Wind Flying.How is it Done?

[Skip Chernoff]

I just reread the thread about Gene Schaffer and his wind flying. I was lucky enough to see him do this at Johnsville NAS....but.... How is it done? Where do you start the first stunt? How much wind? Upwind or downwind? What type of plane does this best?  What about the plane's CG trim? A bit nose heavy right?  I'm willing to try this with an old Nobler.....Inquiring minds want to know. I'm game....PhillySkip

[mike londke]

I can't speak to stunters but a 1/2A combat plane will fly all day back and forth a with 15mph wind. Doing 8's on the downwind side of the circle. 25mph really gets them going. I've done it many times.

[Skip Chernoff]

Mike  ,so start downwind with stronger wind being better. How high? Above 45 degrees? Thanks,Skip

[John Rist]

If you want to fly control line in the wind go for a two string stunt kite.  Typically flown on 80' lines they are a blast.  I carry a kite along with my control line airplane.  If windy fly the kite - If not fly control line.

   

[Skip Chernoff]

I fly quite a bit on windy days and have done those lazy 8s so I know what you are talking about ,but doing it deadstick is quite another matter. I'm guessing whipping is a big part of it to keep the momentum up.

I was thinking that I'd like to take this old Nobler,remove the engine and fill the engine bay with an equivalent amount of lead. Then tape the spinner in place on the nose for better penetration and scotch tape the holes in the cowl for streamlining.  Put the plane on shorter lines,like 55 ft C/l to c/l. Wait for a really windy day and hand launch the model . But which way to launch? Into the wind or downwind for starters??

[Randy Cuberly]

I fly quite a bit on windy days and have done those lazy 8s so I know what you are talking about ,but doing it deadstick is quite another matter. I'm guessing whipping is a big part of it to keep the momentum up.

I was thinking that I'd like to take this old Nobler,remove the engine and fill the engine bay with an equivalent amount of lead. Then tape the spinner in place on the nose for better penetration and scotch tape the holes in the cowl for streamlining.  Put the plane on shorter lines,like 55 ft C/l to c/l. Wait for a really windy day and hand launch the model . But which way to launch? Into the wind or downwind for starters??

Well it might be  possible to do it like you suggest but it's going to be a lot tougher to get momentum going if you start from a dead hand launch like that.  I've done it many times at the end of a flight after the engine quits by just gliding (towing) to keep momentum up then a little past dead downwind (maybe 15 to 20 degrees give enough up to do a fairly big loop while keeping significant pressure on the lines by towing a little, as you start down the backside of the loop you should be about dead downwind or just a little past.  Then quickly reverse controls to gently go inverted and as you come just into the wind on that side of the circle use down control and pressure on the lines to begin an outside loop.  In other words you have just performed a lazy eight.  Take care not to get too high anwhere it gets very tricky above about 45 degrees and you momentum can die very quickly.

It's then possible to simply cross down through the eight to where you began before and repeat all of the above.  Actually it's just using the energy in the wind to push the airplane where you want it to go without losing that energy that keeps the lines tight.

As I said before I've never tried it from a dead stick hand launch and probably wouldn't but I've done loops, both inside and outside and lazy eights until I just got tired of doing them.  One tip... outside loops are most easily done like the backside of a lazy eight and not by just going high and down.  Just start carefully and always think about keeping the lines tight and your momentum up.  Never try to go too deep into the wind or you will lose it!

I think it was easiest for me with a 38 ounce Gieseke Nobler with a Fox 35 and about 12 mph wind!  I have flown bigger heavier airplanes that way but it's more difficult and riskier!

It's also very easy with slow combat planes!

Also, people may throw rocks at you to get you off the circle if you hog it for too long! 

OH Yeah...stay light on your feet you may have to move very quickly.  In fact you will always be moving fairly quickly.  You can't Plant your feet and do this!

Randy Cuberly

[Dan McEntee]

  I believe there was an article in American Aircraft Modeler specifically on wind flying. The author used a U-Reely to fly by himself  at a specific spot to take advantage of the wind, and was flying a Banshee I believe with weight in the nose instead of an engine and no landing gear.If I find it I'll post the issue date.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Trostle]

It helps to have a clean airplane, though it can be done with profiles.

Remove the prop.  Could add a bit of nose weight.  When on the downwind side of the circle, give a good heave and fly as long as there is a good wind.  Lazy eights keep it in the air, can even do consecutive loops.

Keith

[Dennis Moritz]

I saw Gene do this at a Lake Charles NATs. 1973 or 74. He flew a couple of laps, engine cut. He kept flying down wind. Lazy eights is what I remember. Kept it up for a while. Perhaps Bob Hunt will notice this thread. He was there. We can give him a call when I get back to Philly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Eric Viglione]

We had a club member, John Sylvestro, who used to wind fly dead stick regularly.

John said his plane of choice was a Goldberg Buster or Shoestring, he liked the side area.

I'd see him take off with a Fox blubbering rich, short tanked, then when the engine stopped he had a lawn chair out in the circle that he would sit down in and do loops and eights for as long as the wind would hold.

THEN... one day is was REALLY blowing and John was ear to ear smiles and he had his son with him. We were die hards, looking back I'm not even sure why we were at the field! Prolly because it used to be 10 minutes from home.

Anyway, John proclaimed it was almost windy enough... which we all got a hearty laugh out of because no sane person would risk their plane in this weather, and we had all seen John wind fly in less. John looks perturbed and says , No, really... I mean it.

What happened next is indelibly recorded in my memory. John proceeds to remove the prop from the Buster, has his son hold the plane a little ahead of dead upwind,  John grabs the handle and gives the launch signal. His son proceeds to give it a little run and chucks it, at which point John takes the Buster into the prettiest wingover, straight over the top, lines tight, down to the downwind side and pulls out into a lazy 8 and then his usual routine of loops and eights. It was an awesome thing to behold.

In hind sight, John always flew his little profiles blubbering rich, and just tooled around in the sky, and I have come to believe that he was just practicing for those windy days he loved so much.

John was a retired NY transit cop, retired to Florida... nicest peson you would want to meet. He'd seen it all on the subways of NY and was unflappable. He ended up moving to NC somewhere. I saw him at Huntersville contest once shortly after the move then we lost touch. I hope he is well.

EricV

[mike londke]

How I do my 1/2A's. When the engine quits continue flying upright around the circle until you are directly into the wind and pull an inside loop from level flight. You'll feel the plane catch the wind as it comes up and it will start to be pushed by the wind and gain speed. Tops at about 45 to 50degress. After coming over the top of the loop I aim for an intersection directly downwind from me, then continue through the intersection until you need to level off. At this time you should be just about entering the wind again (inverted). Pull an outside loop directly into the wind and repeat the process. I've flown for 4 or 5 minutes like this if there is enough wind.

[Frank Imbriaco]

Dennis is right when he says Bob Hunt is a veteran wind pilot. But here's something else that'll blow  your mind.
 Those of us  who remember Gene S.  know that he flew clockwise. OK.
Bob wind flew Gene's plane by reversing lines.
 My brain gets scrambled up just thinking of it.

[Skip Chernoff]

Thanks to everyone who jumped into this discussion . As soon as the cold weather breaks, and we get a windy day with wind right down the R/C runway at our field,  I'll give this a shot. I'm willing to sacrifice an old Nobler to learn this stunt. I'll also make sure the cameras are rolling so we can all view (and laugh) at the success or failure of this adventure!......PhillySkip

[Eric Viglione]

Another wind flying story just came to mind... at a fairly recent Nats, Buddy Wieder let Bene' R take a flight on his absolutely stunning, winning Caprice at the end of classic.

It was a very good pattern... but no one (especially Bud) saw what was coming next. Needless to say, it was a little windy, but not too bad. Prolly ~15?

After the engine quit, Bene' proceeded to put on a wind flight demo with Buds flawless beauty of a plane!!!!  After a few loops etc. giving Bud near heart failure, Bene' landed the caprice without incident, and some cheers jeers and applause.

I was next to Bud and it was comical.  (And the only reason it was comical instead of tragic was the lack of the crash) He was doing his best to act cool but he was pretty freaked out. I asked Bud if it was planned, he gave a very animated "are you freaking kidding me?!" I guess all is well that ends well, but I'm guessing Bud won't be offering rides to people on his planes again any time soon. LOL!

EricV

[Frank Imbriaco]

Another wind flying story just came to mind... at a fairly recent Nats, Buddy Wieder let Bene' R take a flight on his absolutely stunning, winning Caprice at the end of classic.

It was a very good pattern... but no one (especially Bud) saw what was coming next. Needless to say, it was a little windy, but not too bad. Prolly ~15?

After the engine quit, Bene' proceeded to put on a wind flight demo with Buds flawless beauty of a plane!!!!  After a few loops etc. giving Bud near heart failure, Bene' landed the caprice without incident, and some cheers jeers and applause.

I was next to Bud and it was comical.  (And the only reason it was comical instead of tragic was the lack of the crash) He was doing his best to act cool but he was pretty freaked out. I asked Bud if it was planned, he gave a very animated "are you freaking kidding me?!" I guess all is well that ends well, but I'm guessing Bud won't be offering rides to people on his planes again any time soon. LOL!

EricV

  He's still freaked out about  it.

[gene poremba]

 I have been flying models for over 50 years and have to say I never saw anyone wind fly a C/L model. I am impressed when an engine quits and the pilot completes the figure and lands safely. I'd really like to see a video of anyone doing this. I guess its never too late to learn something new! (for me). I can honestly say almost every time I log on here I learn something new. I wish I could have had this stuff back in the 60's!.......Gene

[Frank Imbriaco]

 Unrelated, but a rare few can  R/C wind fly- and  I don't mean  with a glider , sailplane or similar. Some  years ago, I handed my TX over to Jason Shulman to evaluate fine /trim my two meter pattern plane. He asked I mind if he flew until out of fuel. Knowing his ability, I thought no sweat- he'll just do a dead-stick.
Wrong.
He flew it for another 3-4 minutes and did some  fairly complex maneuvers ( with the exception of vertical climbs). And, it wasn't all that windy.
Neat.

[Mark Mc]

I know I've seen a YouTube clip of someone doing wind flying, but I just cannot find the clip now.

Mark

[Norm Faith Jr.]

Maybe we can get Jason Greer to jump in here. Jason is a past NATS Advanced Champion. It was many years ago, when he was quite young, as best I can remember, he had a "self designed"  model that he flew "specifically" as a wind flyer. When I first saw him flying it, (from a distance) I thought "that young fellow can sure fly that 1/2 A combat ship." As I got closer, it wasn't making any noise. (Obviously...no engine) I was really impressed with how well it flew. He may still have some plans to share for his wind flyer. What do you say Jason?
Norm

[afml]

"After the engine quit, Bene' proceeded to put on a wind flight demo with Buds flawless beauty of a plane!!!! "

Awesome flight! That was on the grass circles after Classic.
That afternoon Mr. Thomas Case flew his Shark 45 on the L-Pad for several minutes after he completed the pattern, "Wind Flying".
"Tight Lines!"
Wes

[EddyR]

Eric.     John lives not to far from me. He came to he field a few times and I offered him a plane but he lost interest.  I believe he works at Charlotte Douglas airport
Ed

[Larry Renger]

The ultimate wind flying is the gliders doing over 500mph! There is a lot of energy there if you know how to use it.

Hmm, I have a radar speed gun, I wonder how fast a CL model can wind fly? Perhaps a whole new speed event?

[Dane Martin]

I wonder if this link will allow people to see this video? Is Joey Mathison flying a vector with an LA 46 in the wind.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/619919831356612?view=permalink&id=1943487985666450&ref=bookmarks

[John Rist]

I wonder if this link will allow people to see this video? Is Joey Mathison flying a vector with an LA 46 in the wind.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/619919831356612?view=permalink&id=1943487985666450&ref=bookmarks

Didn't work for ne

[Dane Martin]

Ok. I'll shoot Paul a text, maybe he can post it on YouTube?

[phil c]

Unrelated, but a rare few can  R/C wind fly- and  I don't mean  with a glider , sailplane or similar. Some  years ago, I handed my TX over to Jason Shulman to evaluate fine /trim my two meter pattern plane. He asked I mind if he flew until out of fuel. Knowing his ability, I thought no sweat- he'll just do a dead-stick.
Wrong.
He flew it for another 3-4 minutes and did some  fairly complex maneuvers ( with the exception of vertical climbs). And, it wasn't all that windy.
Neat.

Dynamic soaring- the wind is always much slower low to the ground, 5ft or less and fastest at the top of the circle.
Sailplane flyers have gone over 500 mph(radar) 

For CL it helps- low into the wind, turn and go fairly high to get the maximum push from the wind, then reverse on the other side.  A smooth, steady wind is much better than gusty wind.
With an expendable plane this is actually very good practice for learning how the plane responds to wind and get a feel for it.  I've seen a number of people panic when the engine quits at a bad spot. Instead of yanking on the controls they could have continued through a loop and with a bit of whipping even if they had to land upside down.  Much better than crashing straight in.

[phil c]

The ultimate wind flying is the gliders doing over 500mph! There is a lot of energy there if you know how to use it.

Hmm, I have a radar speed gun, I wonder how fast a CL model can wind fly? Perhaps a whole new speed event?

A number of years ago, when we were still flying wood planes, some folks found how fast you could go with a combat plane and blew them up either in the air or when they no longer pull out of the loop wind flying with the motor running.  Especially with 015 lines a plane can go well over a 100mph.  The  problem, explained by Wild Bill Netzeband- you do a largish loop, at the top you have to relax the controls and the plane picks up speed requiring more elevator at the bottom of the loop.  A few large loops can easily get going fast enough to either blow up a lightly built plane or it will plow into the ground because there's no elevator control left.

This effect can cause real problems for a stunter if the pilot isn't careful.  Three loops can pick up a lot of speed if done slightly too large and the pilot doesn't recognize what is happening.

[MikeyPratt]

I just reread the thread about Gene Schaffer and his wind flying. I was lucky enough to see him do this at Johnsville NAS....but.... How is it done? Where do you start the first stunt? How much wind? Upwind or downwind? What type of plane does this best?  What about the plane's CG trim? A bit nose heavy right?  I'm willing to try this with an old Nobler.....Inquiring minds want to know. I'm game....PhillySkip

Hi Skip,
Great question with lots of replies.  My brother and I did a lot of wind flying back in the day.  Our favorite model was a Flying Clown with the motor removed and a “D” size battery was taped to the nose.  We used our dads Jim Walker U-Realley and would start out at about 20 feet of line.  The launcher would start on the down wind side of the circle, start running and launch the Clown like a Javelin then the pilot would whip the model to the upwind side of the circle and start a lazy eight.  Each lazy eight we had more air speed to let out some more line.  It wasn't long until we were 60’ plus and that's when we really had fun.  The bigger the loops the better it got, and sometimes the wind was really blowing and we could do even more stunts. A few times we did wingovers from the up wind side.  Wind flying is a classic example of trading altitude for airspeed, with enough airspeed you could do almost any stunt.

It was gear fun,
Mikey

[Skip Chernoff]

I've got a U  Reely and I'm gonna have to try this ......as soon as I figure out how to get some new lines in there!

[Ken Culbertson]

This is really bringing back some memories.  When I was first learning to fly I had to do it a lot by myself.  Had one of those old Walker handles and a Jr. Flight Streak with a Fox .15.  When I couldn't find anybody to launch I used take off the prop and whip it around and let out line till I had enough to start doing eights.  Then I would go home and rebuild it.  The Goldberg Buster & Shoestring were really good at dead stick. 

Wind flying is a skill we should all develop.  If you live in Texas you don't have much choice!  When I was competing in the 70's most of us knew how to do it and on a windy practice day we would add a few minutes to the end of the pattern.  With enough practice you could do most of the pattern, even squares.    It was a great way to learn how to position maneuvers to use the wind instead of fighting it.

[Skip Chernoff]

Ken thanks for joining in this discussion and a big welcome to the forum.

[Mark Mc]

So, what would be considered the minimum weight for a plane to do wind flying?  The plane would need a minimum amount of mass to maintain enough energy to carry it through the maneuvers.

Mark

[Paul Smith]

If you're flying combat or stunt in a high wind, it will just come to you when you try to land.  Easier to do lazy eights than to land.

[dave siegler]

so the combat guys wind fly, others say they need side area. 

Does side area help or hurt for wind flying?

[Paul Smith]

Combat planes with zero side area wind fly very well.

[John Jordan]

      I for one have not seen anyone wind fly in 50 years of flying. How about someone filming and posting on Stunt Hanger the more the merrier. Thanks.

[MikeyPratt]

So, what would be considered the minimum weight for a plane to do wind flying?  The plane would need a minimum amount of mass to maintain enough energy to carry it through the maneuvers.

Mark

Hi Mark,
I’ve flown most of my models this way.  The bigger models you have to take more care and know what you are doing, you don’t want to pile up your best stunt model.  My brother and I built a couple of Sterling Ringmasters and when the wind was blowing we took the wheels and the props off and went wind flying lol.  Brother Louie build a Sterling F-94 that was pretty good wind flyer as well but the brake lock on the old U-Reely gave out and F-94 ran out all 70 + feel of line until it was a free flight model, it was really funny to watch as it flounder around and flop into the grass.  Thank god knowone was close by.

Later,
Mikey

[Ken Culbertson]

It has been my experience that side area little impact on how well a plane wind flies.  It is difficult for me to comment on weight because I have always built extremely light but I do think airfoil and flap movement has an impact.  When I think back on the planes that did it best, they all had thinner airfoils and less flap.  I would think that a heavier model would allow you to penetrate further before having to flip back. 

[john e. holliday]

Yhis sounds like an additional event for the VSC and/or NATS flying.

[Skip Chernoff]

Doc I agree.We have BSed adding some new tricks to the pattern ,well, here you go.....bonus points for wind flying !

[phil c]

One thing that helps in wind flying is the altitude-of the plane.  The video of the RC sailplane record shows it-low into the wind and use the wind to accellerate the plane down into the valley where you can hopefully speed up.  Birds call it dynamic soaring- low into the wind nearly on the wavetops and then turn up into the wind and soar up.

For CL you mostly do the same- low into the wind and pull an inside lazy eight start then dive down low below most of the wind and turn up into it to pick up speed.  It's great for learning how the wind affects what the plane does and especially where not to make sharp turns or get out of position with respect to the wind and how to recover if something does happen.  Having the engine quit up around 40-60degrees into the wind can be traumatic.  The right thing to do is whip as hard as you can and either get the plane down low quickly so it doesn't lose too much speed, or you can try to get it past dead upwind while gently diving down and whipping.  Just be prepared to act fast.

[frank williams]

One of the best wind flying full body a/c is an Oriental, and one of the best wind flyers is Dee Rice.  The Oriental is good for several reasons.  Its a clean low drag a/c and it has about the highest aspect ratio of any stunt ship.  The high AR also gives low induced drag which is beneficial to keeping the momentum up for maneuvering.  I first bumped into Dee in about 1959.   We went flying one windy afternoon and he wind flew and I was amazed.  I don't remembering him changing the prop for wind flying.  I did see him make a couple of wind laps back about 10 or 15 years ago, but I'm afraid, like for most of us, those days might be in the rear view mirror. 

[john e. holliday]

Last time out I was flying in wind I should have or normally would have said no.  hat poor MIG was straining the lines from take off until the engine quit.  Lost count of how many 8's and loops I did.   I was very glad when engine quit and set it down before it got back into the wind.  Didn't even think of wind flying.

[Skip Chernoff]

I have not tried the wind flying yet as the weather has been horrible except for maybe two days since I started the post ,but promise to give it a shot when Spring finally comes.

[peabody]

Bob Lampione was a great wind flyer as well....
As Bob Hunt mentioned, Flushing usually offered "challenging" winds....
After a contest where most passed on second flights, "Champione" took to the air with one of his silver airplanes, flew a very nice pattern under power, and then, when the engine quit, flew for another five or so minutes...doing all but the overhead maneuvers!
As it was his airplane, it was on the heavy side.

[Skip Chernoff]

Bob, the winds were ok ,but it was just too cold to have fun out there.