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Author Topic: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?  (Read 6536 times)

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2015, 07:11:50 PM »
Some how this has narrowed down to stunt and combat.   I used to volunteer to help with the racing events and later carrier.  I vaguely remember asking Bev Wisnieuski (spelling) about being an event director for the events.  She finally relented an let me run carrier.  One of the greats at running events pulled me aside and asked if I knew what I was doing.  He stated that you realize the work of getting officials/help.  Then then statement:  When you are the event director you have no family or friends in or during the competition.   Been some hard feelings along the way,  learned a lot and could never thank the people enough that helped me through the years. 

So anybody that bad mouths any officials at the NATS or any contest should stand back and look in the mirror and ask what have I done to help improve an event in stead of tearing it down.  May make it back as a spectator again before I leave this piece of space rock.   A side note, one of the young ladies that stepped in when help was needed at her first NATS as a tabulator for carrier is still at and has not missed one NATS since.   She has been the boss of CL for how many years now?  She was even asked one year to help with the other NATS category.

It would be nice if we could have a west coast NATS but I think it would be a dismal failure with out some one with tons of money to pay for it. 
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2015, 08:13:59 PM »
" . . . It would be nice if we could have a west coast NATS . . .
==================================================

Right.  Like THAT'S ever gonna' happen.   LL~

FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2015, 01:11:08 AM »
I suspect that if AirClassix was to actually attend and participate in a PAMPA run Nats he would pretty quickly become apoplectic and leave the premises inasmuch as pretty much everyone working to make the event happen is related to someone actively competing at the event.  Although we've had our share of personality clashes over the years the stunt community by and large is just that...a community of people with common interests in which they invest substantial resources of time and, yes, money; none of which is ever likely to return to their wallets as a result of winning anything.  As a result there is pretty much no means by which we can convince disinterested people willing to do the work necessary to run such events (to say nothing of educating themselves to be conversant with and capable of officiating at such an arcane endeavor) for a price any could afford.

Pretty much every stunt contest in the world (the FAI's World Championships included) is managed and staffed by people who are keenly involved in and knowledgeable of the competitive pecking order of the day who participate administratively so as to allow the event to continue to flourish despite the great mass of the rest of the world devolving into Neanderthalesque human look-a-likes wandering around with their necks bowed and their eyeballs buried in Madonna's latest personal message tweeted to their brain...er, uh, iPhone.

RE the young man about whose perception of the event  AirClassix is so concerned.  I (like Bobby, David, Paul, Brett, Doug etc. etc.) went to my first Nats as a 15 year old kid and watched a talented young man named Billy, not much older than me, knock of the then King of the Hill, Bob Palmer in the battle for the Walker Cup.  I thought to myself, "Man, that is cool.  I want to do what Billy did."  It took me until 1982 to finally do so and there wasn't once that I thought those who had been beating me were purposely stacking the deck against me.  Is it possible that AirClassix' suggestion that today's winners would conspire against him denied him the possibility to do what every Walker Cup Champion chose to do to make it happen.

Ted

Ted, you are so far off base it's laughable.  Golly gee whiz, I've been labeled a "chronic loser" and worse here and just find humor in it, coming from people who don't know me at all.  I suggest you lighten up and find some humor too.

(1) I have personally attended Several PAMPA run Nats.  Further, I have counted as good friends TWO Nats stunt winners.

(2) I have absolutely NO interest in seriously competing in stunt at the Nats.  I'll repeat what I've posted here and on other forums many, many times over the years:  I really admire the works of art so many of you build, and admire and respect your flying ability.  I practiced the pattern regularly for a few weeks some years ago, specifically to give flying buddy Mike Pratt a bad time (ask him).  But as an old combat flyer, I frankly find it very B-O-R-I-N-G.  Which makes me appreciate a good stunt flyer's dedication even more.

(3) I have been involved in competition in one form or another - as a participant, coach, mentor, and official - for what seems like a hundred years at times.  Much of my perspective was developed early in life when I wrestled on a state championship team.  (And we weren't that because of me!  At 13 I hated the pressure on meet nights, especially always starting meets first at the lightest weight.  But, by the age of 16 or 17, I thrived on it.)

(4) Perhaps in part because of that experience, I detest even the appearance of bias in competition.  Who else do you know that would make a scene walking out of an official's meeting, leaving very good friends behind? So therefore ...

(5) I would much prefer the AMA take responsibility for providing officials to conduct any event at our national championships.  Your opinion is different, and apparently the "top tier" is happy with the current arrangement.  You have an opinion, so do I.

(6) The story of your rise to the top is admirable, and maybe has the makings of a "Win one for the Gipper, boys!".  But this is 2015.  Our school kids must spend a third of their time discussing bullying, and when our Boy Scouts go camping for a week, the mothers go along - sometimes as their leaders!  In short, we live in a "kinder, gentler" society.  We can adapt, or become dinosaurs - the choice is ours.

As is our reaction to anything written here.  Any of us who go ballistic reading this conversation would be best served by examining why words set off “buttons” in us.  As I’ve written before: Our reaction is ours to own, not the poster’s.


Dennis

Offline Bradley Walker

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« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2015, 05:55:58 AM »
You guys ever see the Exorcist?  That part where her head spins all the way around? 

The winners get to write history,  that's a historical fact.

I'm just glad things are out in the open now.   No more secret meetings or secret cabals deciding who judges and where they judge or who flies against who.. .   No more weird rules changes getting implemented without review...   Etc etc.   Everyone seems to be nice and awake now.

That's good.

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Offline peabody

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2015, 06:20:51 AM »
Do "Real Modelers" need to be in charge? Is a F 1 driver in charge of Ferrari? Kenny Roberts in charge of Yamaha? I think administrative skills are MUCH more important than "modeling"....

Offline Bradley Walker

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« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2015, 06:36:02 AM »
From my little observation I'm not sure there was as much conspiracy to cheat as there were certain individuals who wanted everyone to THINK there was an elite conspiracy,  and they were one of the elite controlling it.

So,  while these little sewing circles of guys calling each other,  writing each other,  having secret meetings,  etc etc discussing who should win what,  who is an approved contender,  etc etc didn't really decide anything as much as it made the people doing the talking feel important.

There was a lot of that.

I am very proud of the guys in my generation.   I realized we were all friends.   No one bad talking,  no one trying to cheat,  no one acting in secret,  no one starting wars.   I realized we all could sit around and laugh...   Guys from all over.   Not a mean one in the bunch.

And those are the guys competing now for the most part,  and things are eerily quiet, Huh?

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"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2015, 09:02:16 AM »
Bradly,, good observation,, as has been said many time,, I think many times by Bret,, if you read just the forums you would think there is a constant war going on,, but having been to the Nats,, I can attest that there is none of that there,, its a great group of guys,, and I had a fantastic time, with lots of people offering advice and assistance
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2015, 09:20:27 AM »
Bradly,, good observation,, as has been said many time,, I think many times by Bret,, if you read just the forums you would think there is a constant war going on,, but having been to the Nats,, I can attest that there is none of that there,, its a great group of guys,, and I had a fantastic time, with lots of people offering advice and assistance



As a judge this year I can only say that the integrity of the team of judges was incredible. Fairness was on everyone's mind because as competitors as well as judges it was the theme that we would want the same integrity if it were us in the circle. Appearance of bias in is the eye of the beholder I think and it indicates a misplaced distrust.
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Offline Bradley Walker

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« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2015, 09:56:44 AM »
I honestly don't think anyone is saying that there is a problem any more...

A few basic format changes,  and a lot of education among the fliers as to the process of the rules,  and there are no more grumblings....   Because everything is out in the open.   As it should be....

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Online Brett Buck

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« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2015, 10:19:39 AM »
From my little observation I'm not sure there was as much conspiracy to cheat as there were certain individuals who wanted everyone to THINK there was an elite conspiracy,  and they were one of the elite controlling it.

So,  while these little sewing circles of guys calling each other,  writing each other,  having secret meetings,  etc etc discussing who should win what,  who is an approved contender,  etc etc didn't really decide anything as much as it made the people doing the talking feel important.

There was a lot of that.


    This is a parody, right?  Because it's funny.

     I am not even sure who you are talking about, but I can assure you that no one *I* know of did anything like this. The only conspiracy to win I ever participated in involved coaching, learning to trim, and learning to set up engines!   And of course competing against each other. I imagine you believe Ted to be our ringleader- and Ted (and Bill) were the ones telling David and I not to bother with the side issues and go try to fly better!

   I will admit to having some epic-length discussions/arguments with Shareen over things like tossing high/low and how to do the judge selections.  It was based on two motives - ensuring the most objective contest possible AND protecting the judges and organizers from attacks and snide commentary as exhibited above.

     If anyone sits around thinking they are somehow influencing the outcome, or that someone else is influencing the outcome, by lobbying, glad-handing, etc, they are both deluding themselves AND wasting a lot of valuable time that could be spent in more useful pursuits. Airclassicx/Dennis is providing a remarkable example of the kind of delusion I am talking about, and I know he is hardly alone.

   For the layperson and even some moderately experienced competitors, people watch the flights among the top competitors, they all look just about the same and nearly perfect, and there's no apparent correlation between the rankings and the flights. Competitors with moderate experience might be the worst case, because they have overcome most of the gross errors and don't yet see the smaller errors.  

     In reality, most stunt flights contain large numbers of obvious mistakes, even in the Walker flyoff. Obvious if you know what to look for, but borderline invisible to most. If they are invisible, there's no way to explain the results, and therefore there *must be* some other reason the winners win, lobbying, old boys club, etc. And of course, if someone points out this fact, they are dismissed as part of the conspiracy, so of course they say silly thing like "there is no sekrit kabal', and "go practice more" to keep up the illusion.

   It's like the UFO people - there's  no legitimate evidence of flying saucer people, and the government and other agencies investigate and say there's nothing there. Of course, the more they deny it, the more "obvious" it is that there is a conspiracy and the denials are used as evidence.  You have an entire cable channel devoted to this delusion.

    Similarly , I am sure that guys like Airclassicx genuinely believe what they are saying, even though it is patently ridiculous. It plays with other people, because these guys are providing "the inside word" making those who hear it one of those who aren't falling for the scam like all those other poor suckers. The more people like me deny it, the more proof they have that they are right!

     It's like technical advice - the more you tell people what to do, and how you do something, the more they want to go off and do the exact opposite just to show they aren't one of the mindless drones. I actually *do* use that effect to mess with various people, mostly for entertainment value, and I my conscience is clear because I am in fact providing exactly the sort of information that they need. Not my problem (but pretty entertaining) to see them go off and do something different to prove they know better.

    Brett

  

Offline Bradley Walker

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« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2015, 10:30:32 AM »
Don't drag me into whatever that is Brett.   I was saying everything is good now.   Whatever was done in the past is irrelevant... It's the past...   And there is more to the world that what *Brett* sees...   Unless of course,  you firmly believe in your heart your perception of this world somehow supersedes everyone else's....

But wait....
Hmmmm.

Never mind....

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Online Brett Buck

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« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2015, 10:40:24 AM »
Don't drag me into whatever that is Brett.   I was saying everything is good now.   Whatever was done in the past is irrelevant... It's the past...   And there is more to the world that what *Brett* sees...   Unless of course,  you firmly believe in your heart your perception of this world somehow supersedes everyone else's....



I certainly agree that this is my perspective, as is everything subjective anyone ever says. Glad you are here to clear it all up for us.

    I was merely addressing your delusion about people and their "sewing cliques", mostly because, while you have started to come out of your delusion, guys like Airclassicx are almost irretrievably stuck in theirs. And spread it around to the detriment of the event and the potential participants that this nonsense dissuades.

    Brett

   

Offline Peter Ferguson

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2015, 11:18:33 AM »
It's like the UFO people - there's  no legitimate evidence of flying saucer people, and the government and other agencies investigate and say there's nothing there. Of course, the more they deny it, the more "obvious" it is that there is a conspiracy and the denials are used as evidence.  You have an entire cable channel devoted to this delusion.

I'm crushed....et Tu Brette ?
Peter Ferguson
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Offline Bradley Walker

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« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2015, 12:04:13 PM »
Man Brett.

I wonder if you would talk that way to my face in person...   I doubt it.

Delusion?

Man.  You need to back up.

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Offline Larry Borden

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2015, 12:41:17 PM »
Do "Real Modelers" need to be in charge? Is a F 1 driver in charge of Ferrari? Kenny Roberts in charge of Yamaha? I think administrative skills are MUCH more important than "modeling"....

What is a 'real modeler'? The people that are district VPs and their associates, I would guess don't have a whole lot of time to be 'real modelers'. I'm probably going to stir something up, but here goes.   If anyone thinks they can do a better job than those in the AMA, put your money where your mouth is. Run for one of the offices. Maybe start as a District AVP or higher. I would hazard a guess that your tune might change.

Just my humble opinion.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2015, 12:24:17 PM »
Airclassix,

I have to ask, have you been to a stunt Nats recently?  I began attending the stunt Nats in 2008 and have attended 6 of the last 8. Please understand that I have no where near the experience as the other guys posting in this thread. From my experience as a newcomer, the recent nats process has flowed like a well oiled machine, which I'm positive has not happened on accident. I really don't see how a bias can be injected into the process due to the fact that everything is randomized from the beginning, including flight order, circle assignment, judge assignment, and judge circle assignment.

I'm not sure which young people have given you the impression that they had a negative experience at the nats, but the younger attendees have certainly not given me that impression. I am not 14, but I am one of the younger guys in attendance.  I can assure you, I do not believe any bias is occurring, at least not on purpose! Judges make mistakes. They're human just like you and I, but I think it's laughable to think they are all in cahoots to try to dictate the outcome. I've watched most of the guys that are always at the top. They are at the top because they are good, plain and simple.

Ted, Shareen, Howard, Paul, David, and everyone else that has contributed to developing the process and devoting the time and expense of directing the Nats, THANK YOU!  You guys and gals have done an awesome job!

Jason

Thanks for your support, Jason.  As with any organization, it is always a small percentage of participants that actually do what's necessary to make an avocation available/enjoyable  for (almost) everyone.  Stunt has been very fortunate to have had more than most.  What we've never been short of, alas, is idle hands willing to criticize the best efforts of others.

Ted

Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2015, 12:42:40 PM »
Thanks for your support, Jason.  As with any organization, it is always a small percentage of participants that actually do what's necessary to make an avocation available/enjoyable  for (almost) everyone.  Stunt has been very fortunate to have had more than most.  What we've never been short of, alas, is idle hands willing to criticize the best efforts of others.

Ted



Ted and Jason, this sort of thing exists in FF as well. Over the years there have been allegations of score padding and buddy bumping since we time each other. Any situation where there is that sort of scoring will bring this out, in FF as Jason knows we time one/fly one, usually with a buddy. At the 99 Nats I put up a rubber flight then I went and recovered the model. On the next flight I had another modeler, one I knew quite well, stop me and tell me he'd checked my score against his watch and that fortunately they agreed. "Fortunately"? Really? yes, its there even among the participants, this guy had actually timed my flight. I told him he was welcome to check up on me any time he liked, never had another incident like that. So no matter how up and up things are, there seems there will always be those that think they see bias. You can walk around the Nats and hear about all the conspiracies that have kept this guy or that one from doing well. So I'm quite sure no matter what event in what discipline you choose you will find them....They didn't measure towlines and so & so always carries a second reel for times like that and he probably used that, the didn't weigh in at such and such contest and so & so probably removed his ballast, his buddy probably let him have that over-run or I'd have won and on and on and on. At the 2001 FF Nats I was approached on 3 occasions with complaints about one or another "contestant issue" but when I told them to file a protest it was suddenly not all that important, that spoke volumes to me. Put your money where your mouth is if its that bad but don't take it to the public forum before you've done that!
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2015, 03:10:51 PM »
What is that saying some one used to say:  He must cheat more than me as he still keeps winning.   
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.


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