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Author Topic: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?  (Read 6540 times)

Offline Mike Keville

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Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« on: November 09, 2015, 09:35:54 PM »
...or are we destined to see a continuing cadre of "Johnny-Come-Lately" ARF and drone pimps like Bob Brown chasingr the almighty dollar?

Whatever happened to real model BUILDERS, and why have they been replaced with the likes of what we have today?

I'm with 'Warbird" - very sorry that I re-upped this time, but Never Again unless the Academy of Multirotors and ARFs changes its ways.....unlikey, apparently.

FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Offline Glenn (Gravitywell) Reach

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2015, 09:41:11 PM »
Will you ever get "real" modellers to run the AMA?  Yeah....as soon as you vote them in.
Glenn Reach
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Offline Tony Drago

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2015, 09:49:32 PM »
Better odds on hitting the Lottery. Its all politics.

Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2015, 09:53:53 PM »
I agree Tony.  I honestly think AMA could care less if they had any CL hobbyist in the organization.

Mike

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2015, 10:22:17 PM »
Will you ever get "real" modellers to run the AMA?  Yeah....as soon as you vote them in.

    That battle was lost *long* ago. The AMA has been a toy company for at least 25 years now, and the "marketers" and the "grow the hobby" types took over for good. Sometime after/during Worth's era.

    Brett

   

Offline Tony Drago

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2015, 10:42:34 PM »
                                                                         AMA R.I.P.   
                                            :-( Your were a good organization at one time )-:
                                                               :-(  But Not No More )-:

Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 11:11:18 PM »
    That battle was lost *long* ago. The AMA has been a toy company for at least 25 years now, and the "marketers" and the "grow the hobby" types took over for good. Sometime after/during Worth's era.

    Brett

Make that during Worth's era, please.  I was really upset with AMA's almost total disinterest in the conduct of the Nats back in the '60s and exchanged letters with Worth on that and similar lack of leadership from the administration.  What really pixxed me off was him writing in a piece that (to quote loosely at this point) "most participants at the Nats are there simply to brush shoulders with the name flyers".

His response could nicely be summed up as,"Oh well ..."

Excuse my competitive nature, but even when a friend (who should have known me better) asked some years ago if we should drive 300 miles to a contest "to see how we can do in combat", I instinctively snapped back "I won't drive anywhere except to win!"

And, your own perspective may be different, but do you see Major League Baseball asking a Girl Scout troop in Brooklyn to conduct the World Series?  The US. Olympic Wrestling authorities asking a women's sewing group to conduct the Olympic Trials?

IMOH it's absolutely insane for any governing group to NOT accept complete responsibility for the conduct of it's "national championships".

There are people at AMA who have been very helpful when called upon, but I think Mike Keville sums up the direction of leadership rather well.

And no one has mentioned the employment opportunities for family.  I subscribed to Park Pilot for a year and was only slightly surprised to find the daughter of the editor and at least one of her friends as regular columnists ...  I suppose that's one way to help a daughter through college.  (Did I mention how thrilled I was to read about her college year, and the concerts she played in, etc. ... in a modeling magazine?)

Dennis

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2015, 11:22:39 PM »

And, your own perspective may be different, but do you see Major League Baseball asking a Girl Scout troop in Brooklyn to conduct the World Series?  The US. Olympic Wrestling authorities asking a women's sewing group to conduct the Olympic Trials?

 I don't agree with your analogies. The way the NATs is currently conducted (individual events manned and arranged by the SIGs) is *exactly* analogous to the IOC asking the US Olympic Wrestling authorities to run the wrestling competition at a US Olympics. The SIGS are the most competent and knowledgable people available. I am pretty sure that most people involved in stunt certainly don't consider PAMPA to be the equivalent of a "girl scout troop in Brooklyn" and you will not find many people at who have an issue with how the CL Stunt NATs competition is run.

   As far as I am concerned, the AMA conduct of the NATs has been exemplary. They find the best people to run it, they provide the necessary financial and logistical support, and let it happen If the competition people were in charge of the entire organization, i would expect this ARF/drone mess would never have happened in the first place, and would be quickly corrected.


     Brett

Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2015, 12:27:52 AM »
I don't agree with your analogies. The way the NATs is currently conducted (individual events manned and arranged by the SIGs) is *exactly* analogous to the IOC asking the US Olympic Wrestling authorities to run the wrestling competition at a US Olympics. The SIGS are the most competent and knowledgable people available. I am pretty sure that most people involved in stunt certainly don't consider PAMPA to be the equivalent of a "girl scout troop in Brooklyn" and you will not find many people at who have an issue with how the CL Stunt NATs competition is run.

   As far as I am concerned, the AMA conduct of the NATs has been exemplary. They find the best people to run it, they provide the necessary financial and logistical support, and let it happen If the competition people were in charge of the entire organization, i would expect this ARF/drone mess would never have happened in the first place, and would be quickly corrected.


     Brett

Then we'll have to agree to disagree, Brett.

Jack Sheeks publicly stated - as I've detailed previously - at the '72 Nats, as I recall, that he made the final 20 based on his name.  I've seen and judged enough stunt to know he was exactly right- he'd flown a couple of the worst "patterns" (and I use the term loosely)  I've ever seen, anytime, anywhere.

In combat at the '75 Nats my pit crew - completely uncharacteristically - got me up 2nd in the first round.  We were flying with the courtesy lap at the time ... my streamer was completely gone before I completed half a lap; the match was awarded to the MECA officer who took it.  Dozens of witnesses saw something completely different than the MECA judges, but we had seen similar instances for years at the MECA-run Nats.

None of my group ever entered combat at the Nats again, but we sure continued dominating elsewhere.  And attended additional Nats to watch stunt and renew friendships.

Meanwhile, another local did win combat at the Nats a few years later.  Then he failed to place in at least the next half-dozen contests he entered in this area.  Perhaps you can imagine the "esteem" we feel for "National Championships" as conducted by Special Interest Groups ...

And, incidentally, I officiated Olympic style wrestling at the National Championship and Olympic Trials for several years.  And walked out of an officials meeting at the 1974 tournament to select a team to travel to Russia when a number of others kept predicting what a new "wonder boy" would do after setting NCAA records for wins and pins.  We were implementing a new rule that should have required some real attention, but choosing the Outstanding Wrestler of the tournament seemed to be the order of the day.

I finally stood up, stated that if anyone was aware of techniques I might not have seen - especially stalling - I was all ears, but the wrestler's names were "Red" and "Green" as far as I was concerned when the match started.  And then left.

Well, wonder boy did get his award.  My satisfaction was having an Olympic silver medal winner tell me I was the best official he'd ever had on the mat, anytime, anywhere.

Really honest competitors know - as did Jack Sheeks.

I'll take Navy judges any day!

Dennis

PS: Olympic medals have been taken away from athletes.  Name one Nats winner who lost his award when it was learned he cheated ...

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2015, 12:59:36 AM »

PS: Olympic medals have been taken away from athletes.  Name one Nats winner who lost his award when it was learned he cheated ...

    To my knowledge, no NATs stunt winner has cheated, therefore the question is moot.

    I really don't know where you are coming from. The competitors do not share your opinion.

    Brett

Offline Douglas Ames

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2015, 01:37:57 AM »
Why can't PAMPA insure it's members as a stand-alone Model Org.? Too costly?
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Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2015, 01:54:01 AM »
    To my knowledge, no NATs stunt winner has cheated, therefore the question is moot.

    I really don't know where you are coming from. The competitors do not share your opinion.

    Brett

Brett, I really have no quarrel with you as an individual, but - no offense - you're living in a different world.  And that's OK by me ...

But there is a certain core here of "die-hards" - consider that to be a compliment - who seem unable to see the forest for the trees.

First: I'm not referring to stunt only.  The introduction of SIGs to the administration of the Nats introduced bias.  Period.  Exclamation Mark!  I really think some of you don't understand, or don't want to know, the meaning of bias!

I'm reminded of discussions a few years ago when I brought this up.  Several of "you" protested loudly; shortly thereafter someone (I think Bob Hunt, whom I greatly admire and appreciate, or Ted Fancher) posted something to the effect that "the top place at the Vintage Stunt Championships will undoubtedly come down to me, X and Y."

Really, can you spell bias!?!  I think it was actually humorous ...

And Ted Fancher's wife involved in score keeping?  Don't tell me it's all on the up and up - I believe that!  But even the appearance of bias IS bias!

Put yourself out of "your group" for a moment and consider: How many others have seen/felt/heard how the Nats are run and won't even bother to enter?  I've heard from many in the years since the '70s.

And that's certainly the case for several of us in the Midwest who flew combat.  Combat at the Nats became a joke!  And I don't think it's any surprise that combat, as well as other events, rather quickly became "watered down" at the Nats ...

Perhaps the real question is this: Can you honestly say YOU can judge stunt and score your friends, flying buddies, flyers you regularly are in touch with, exactly the same as you'd score a stranger?

Any of us would in my opinion be very wise to avoid that scenario.  We're just human!

Dennis









Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2015, 02:33:13 AM »
I don't agree with your analogies. The way the NATs is currently conducted (individual events manned and arranged by the SIGs) is *exactly* analogous to the IOC asking the US Olympic Wrestling authorities to run the wrestling competition at a US Olympics. The SIGS are the most competent and knowledgable people available. I am pretty sure that most people involved in stunt certainly don't consider PAMPA to be the equivalent of a "girl scout troop in Brooklyn" and you will not find many people at who have an issue with how the CL Stunt NATs competition is run.

   As far as I am concerned, the AMA conduct of the NATs has been exemplary. They find the best people to run it, they provide the necessary financial and logistical support, and let it happen If the competition people were in charge of the entire organization, i would expect this ARF/drone mess would never have happened in the first place, and would be quickly corrected.

Brett

I think your own analogy is dead wrong, Brent.  Wouldn't you agree the folks who judge stunt are, by and large, competitors themselves?

Which is entirely different than selecting an Olympic wrestling team.

I officiated for several years.  As an official, not a participant.

Further, I coached a very successful group of young men.  In the process of officiating (particularly state championships), many times wrestlers from my club came to the mat I was working.  At which time I excused myself.

Since when are "the best people to run it" those who arrive on the scene with ANY form of vested interest?

Give me impartial strangers any day!

Dennis,
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Offline BillLee

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2015, 03:45:04 AM »
Brett, I really have no quarrel with you as an individual, but - no offense - you're living in a different world.  And that's OK by me ..




Dennis, this is an absolutely true statement! You are mired in recollections from 40 years ago, won't enter a NATs now as a result, and then drawing conclusions about how things are done today.


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Offline peabody

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2015, 05:53:53 AM »
I think "real modelers" needs a definition.....is a "real modeler" someone that builds from a pile of balsa? The AMA is a model FLYING organization....fliers have differing opinions of late as to a definition of "real modelers".
I know a few of the AMA VP's and AVP's and they ALL fly and are excited about flying....
Technology has evolved.....

Have fun!

Offline Bradley Walker

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« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2015, 07:27:01 AM »
My friends tell me the Nats is pretty dang fair these days...   I can't say I think it always was...  I witnessed some things with my own two eyes and ears that weren't exactly screaming "we just want it to be fair".  

But from what I am being told the Nats and Team Trials both are pretty darn square these days.

Maybe...   It was because some people stood up and asked questions.   Maybe.   There was a lot of ignorance across the country several years ago as to who did what in the competitions and rules regard.   But I think that has been rectified now.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline Bradley Walker

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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2015, 07:28:17 AM »
The best thing for any judged sport is force the management to change players as often as possible.   That's the best fix.   To have one group get entrenched is a sure way to start to see patterns of favoritism.

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Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2015, 07:37:25 AM »
Dennis, this is an absolutely true statement! You are mired in recollections from 40 years ago, won't enter a NATs now as a result, and then drawing conclusions about how things are done today.


Not true at all, Bill.  Did you see my "Nothing New Under the Sun?" post?  60 years ago AMA was using the threat of collisions with commercial aircraft to justify/enhance their authority; today it's drones, tomorrow it will be ...

Some things simply don't change.  People have been and will continue to be ... well, human, for good and bad.

I'll keep it simple for you:
Does Major League Baseball ask a group of baseball players to run the World Series?
Does the NFL ask a group of football players to run the Super Bowl?
Does the Olympic Wrestling Committee ask a group of wrestlers to conduct the Olympic Trials?

Just a few years ago one of the Model Aviation columnists conducted his own private survey, contacting flyers who had withdrawn from competition.  More than half gave as a reason the feeling that judges were biased.

OK, so you and I are big boys and will compete anyway.  But any of us who truly care about the health of our hobby ought to be doing anything we can to remove any semblance of bias from especially our "national championships".

If you're happy with things just as they are and don't give a tinker's damn about those with less thick skins, so be it.

Dennis


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Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2015, 09:25:03 AM »
...or are we destined to see a continuing cadre of "Johnny-Come-Lately" ARF and drone pimps like Bob Brown chasingr the almighty dollar?

Whatever happened to real model BUILDERS, and why have they been replaced with the likes of what we have today?

I'm with 'Warbird" - very sorry that I re-upped this time, but Never Again unless the Academy of Multirotors and ARFs changes its ways.....unlikey, apparently.




You know the answer Mike, "modelers" are now in the extreme minority. This is another reason I so strongly opposed elimination of the BOM (not to start a new tyrade), we opened the door and they walked right in, I'm not surprised, reminds me of the last 2 elections.

We'll never see the organization as it was originally conceived. Academy? While it never was truly and educational organization, there was much knowledge disseminated. Now the only knowledge needed is where to buy and how much.
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2015, 09:29:13 AM »
The Academy of MODEL AERONAUTICS has always been about model AIRPLANES.  They didn't  absorb model rockets, balloons or stunt kites,  RC cars or model railroad.  Rotocraft are not model airplanes.  Some of us weren't too happy about the shotgun wedding to park flyers but at least they don't generally pose the obvious threat to our sport and organization.  We don't have to quit and just complaining won't go far.  If 'they' won't listen then the members can apply the heat.

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2015, 09:51:50 AM »
Brett, I really have no quarrel with you as an individual, but - no offense - you're living in a different world.  And that's OK by me ...

But there is a certain core here of "die-hards" - consider that to be a compliment - who seem unable to see the forest for the trees.

First: I'm not referring to stunt only.  The introduction of SIGs to the administration of the Nats introduced bias.  Period.  Exclamation Mark!  I really think some of you don't understand, or don't want to know, the meaning of bias!

I'm reminded of discussions a few years ago when I brought this up.  Several of "you" protested loudly; shortly thereafter someone (I think Bob Hunt, whom I greatly admire and appreciate, or Ted Fancher) posted something to the effect that "the top place at the Vintage Stunt Championships will undoubtedly come down to me, X and Y."

Really, can you spell bias!?!  I think it was actually humorous ...


  This is a different thread and off-topic.

 I am living in the world of people who can actually evaluate and assess stunt performance in terms of competitiveness. I can probably name the likely contenders from next years NATs - not because the thing is rigged, but because I know who is able to fly well enough to have a chance of winning. I believe your are making an absolutely classic mistake of thinking "everybody flies about the same so it comes down to reputation". The 10-15 or so people legitimately able to contend for a win are well known and they don't change very often. Guys like Richard Oliver occasionally pop up out of nowhere (BTW, Chris Rud just did something simiar at the TT) but it's very rare, because to become competitive, you have to compete.

  But realistically, Bobby was almost certainly right. Not because the "fix" was in, but because he is able, unlike the various "critics", he can clearly tell who has a chance. When David and I go to the NATs, we can tell and can clearly define exactly what mistakes are being made and almost certainly how the relative scores will come out. Stuff you do not grasp. I was King of the Hill on Friday of this year, the next day, I was all over the place (relatively speaking) on my first two flights on Saturday, got scored appropriately, then straightened myself out on the last flight. It was too late by then, but the key point it David and I both knew what the difference was and *could honestly assess it".

    But I can tell you a priori who likely has a chance, because the gulf between the people who think they are "close" and those who can actually win the thing is *far larger* than you understand. I might miss one or two, but in the gross I can tell you right now.

    I have offered, many times, to point out exactly what is going on to various people who hold the same opinion. Usually, they don't take me up on it, for whatever reason. But it's clear from casual observation if you know what to look for.

   Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2015, 10:12:30 AM »
The Academy of MODEL AERONAUTICS has always been about model AIRPLANES.  They didn't  absorb model rockets, balloons or stunt kites,  RC cars or model railroad.  Rotocraft are not model airplanes.  Some of us weren't too happy about the shotgun wedding to park flyers but at least they don't generally pose the obvious threat to our sport and organization.  We don't have to quit and just complaining won't go far.  If 'they' won't listen then the members can apply the heat.

  But, the vast majority of the members don't see the issue the way we do. The AMA is an insurance company and toy catalog, and that's what they expect. I agree with Randy - it's likely gone and not coming back.

    Brett

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2015, 10:27:56 AM »
Does Major League Baseball ask a group of baseball players to run the World Series?
Does the NFL ask a group of football players to run the Super Bowl?
Does the Olympic Wrestling Committee ask a group of wrestlers to conduct the Olympic Trials?

Many of the people who work and run these events were at one time players and or coaches.  There were involved first hand.

But to compare these sports to CLPA is, well, not really a fair analogy.

The group of people we have to pull from that are capable of running the event and judge the event is very small. Then you have to pair it down to those who will actually do it on their dime and time.  The pool gets very small, VERY FAST.  If you have a fix for this issue please feel free to implement it any time.

I would rather take my chances with a fellow competitor who has spent many years flying and watching patterns judging me than someone off the street who thinks red planes look better than blue ones. But hey, that's just me....

It has been said many times GMA's Nobler said NAVY on the side for a reason.  

The Nats and the TT are run very well. We have had several different CDs over the past several years and the event has gone smoothly every single time.  This is a clear attestation to the process in place and to those who worked hard to get it that way. The process wins the day not those running it.  Questions were asked and answers were given and the process was refined and now it is more transparent than ever. Not many events can honestly say that.

I was 6th this year at the nats. Not a good showing.  Who's fault is that?  Mine. Not the process, not the judges, not a reputation, not a halo, not someone setting up the seeding to work against me and ME ONLY, not the head judge’s thoughts of his buddy winning again, and on and on and on, it was my fault. My squares weren’t square enough and my rounds weren’t round enough. It's just that simple.

  
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2015, 10:34:24 AM »
The AMA is an insurance company. Not a modeling company selling models for modelers by modelers. 
It is an insurance company.  It's priorities are with insurance and ad revenue. 
In the summer they do give the Nats excellent support and a badass facitlity. 
I can say from my experience the Nats is very high on their priority list.
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Offline Bradley Walker

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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2015, 10:47:55 AM »
Oops.   I'm stupid.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2015, 11:03:24 AM »
Hey, the AMA is what it is. As noted, it's an insurance company. They are in business to make money. The Nats make money, ads make money, the dues make money. It OK.
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Online Ted Fancher

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2015, 01:33:30 PM »
Brett, I really have no quarrel with you as an individual, but - no offense - you're living in a different world.  And that's OK by me ...

But there is a certain core here of "die-hards" - consider that to be a compliment - who seem unable to see the forest for the trees.

First: I'm not referring to stunt only.  The introduction of SIGs to the administration of the Nats introduced bias.  Period.  Exclamation Mark!  I really think some of you don't understand, or don't want to know, the meaning of bias!

I'm reminded of discussions a few years ago when I brought this up.  Several of "you" protested loudly; shortly thereafter someone (I think Bob Hunt, whom I greatly admire and appreciate, or Ted Fancher) posted something to the effect that "the top place at the Vintage Stunt Championships will undoubtedly come down to me, X and Y."

Really, can you spell bias!?!  I think it was actually humorous ...

And Ted Fancher's wife involved in score keeping?  Don't tell me it's all on the up and up - I believe that!  But even the appearance of bias IS bias!

Put yourself out of "your group" for a moment and consider: How many others have seen/felt/heard how the Nats are run and won't even bother to enter?  I've heard from many in the years since the '70s.

And that's certainly the case for several of us in the Midwest who flew combat.  Combat at the Nats became a joke!  And I don't think it's any surprise that combat, as well as other events, rather quickly became "watered down" at the Nats ...

Perhaps the real question is this: Can you honestly say YOU can judge stunt and score your friends, flying buddies, flyers you regularly are in touch with, exactly the same as you'd score a stranger?

Any of us would in my opinion be very wise to avoid that scenario.  We're just human!

Dennis










Hi Dennis,  Thanks for the kind words.  Can't tell you how much I appreciate your recognition of my wife's hard work on behalf of stunt although your comments clearly indicate you know essentially nothing about what she did on behalf of those who truly love the event, the people and the airplanes.

I aologize to Sparky in advance for some of what follows.

Say what you want about me, AirClassix, I've got thick skin, have the scars to prove it and care not a whit what you think about me...but lay off my wife.

Since you clearly know nothing about her, here's a capsule of what Shareen has done for the stunt community...none of which tells you how much personal time, resources and effort went into each.

In 1975 she accompanied me to the Nats for the first time, met ED Keith Trostle who was working his butt off like he's done for decades, liked him and volunteered to help out.  From that first year she went on to be the most consistent participant in operating the event for something like 35 of the next 40 or so years of CLPA at the Nats as well as a number of Team Trials and a World Championship.  She was the glue that held the parts together from year to year as EDs...every one of them a hard working volunteer himself, came, worked one, two or a half dozen or more events and eventually moved on...having done more than their share...as is the common and necessary thing needed for a specialized event that generates zero income to support the workers who are necessary to make the whole thing run.  I believe it is a fair statement to say there was not a single one of the numerous EDs for whom she worked who would say anything other than Thank You to Shareen for being that omnipresent, informed and hard working factor that assured consistent administration of the event over the years she served in that capacity.

Unlike the NFL, the Olympics and the other big buck events to which you refer as testimonials to the need to tarnish Shareen's hard work on behalf of others, neither the AMA nor PAMPA has the millions of $$$$$ those outfits pay to get people to do the work that our volunteers do.  Every Nats she worked she was up before dawn and busy until well after dark every day of the event plus a couple in advance doing the preparation, administering at the appearance judging, etc. 

Most importantly, however, it was Shareen that insured that each new Event Director understood HER INSISTENCE that...please read closely, AirClassix...THERE BE AN ASSISTANT TABULATOR; CARBON COPIES OF EACH SCORE SHEET; THAT THE SCORES FROM EACH SHEET WERE SEPARATELY TABULATED; THE RESULTS COMPARED AND ERRORS CORRECTED; AND THAT THE CARBON COPY OF EACH SCORE SHEET WAS THEN MADE AVAILABLE TO EACH COMPETITOR FOR THEIR OWN ANALYSIS AND, IF THEY FELT IT NECESSARY, TO TRIPLE CHECK THE ACCURACY OF THE SCORES AND, IF SO HAVE IT RE-ADDED.  HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THAT THE PERSON WHO INSISTED ON THIS DEGREE OF TRUE "TRANSPARENCY" OF THE SCORING PROCESS WAS SOMEHOW SUSPECT AND WORTHY OF YOUR PUBLIC CONDEMNATION. 

In addition to Shareen's labors at our competitive events she also VOLUNTEERED for a dozen or so years and served as Secretary/Treasurer of PAMPA, a task that generated serious demands on her time and talents to say nothing of phone calls from around the world at all hours of the day and night from members unclear on the concept of time zones.  When she ultimately passed on those tasks to her successor the transfer of paper work required ~a dozen full sized file boxes filled with membership data, each sheet of which had the date on which it was transacted entered by hand by the volunteer you suggest should have been kept in the kitchen.

All told, AirClassix, she spent, quite literally, uncountable thousands of hours of her life working on behalf of people...only a small percentage of whom were personally known by her...at a dollar value that, from personal experience I can verify, was seriously unbalanced and not in favor of her bank account.  For those nearly four decades of labor on behalf of others she received the following:  A cowboy hat autographed by dozens of thankful contestants from a Texas Nats, a nice plaque from the ED at the 10th Nats she worked declaring her a "perfect 10", a lovely faux crystal Trophy from another thankful CD and the contestants thanking her "For Service 'Above and Beyond' to C/L Stunt,"  and a final plaque declaring her a member of the PAMPA Hall of Fame.  These handful of remembrances are among her prized possessions and are constantly but inconspicuously on display in our home where she and I can see them and be reminded of what a great time we shared together as husband and wife...and a team who fought determinedly and honestly, won infrequently but enjoyed every minute of doing so together.

Finally, AirClassix, your posts make it clear you have no idea about how the stunt event at the Nats has been run during the 42 or so years PAMPA has administered it, much as I have no idea how or how well the combat events are administered.  The difference is I wouldn't go on a public forum and excoriate the work of those about whom I know nothing.  Despite your declaration of the multitudes who eschew stunt at the nats because of your alleged biased administration, the "fact" remains the the number of stunt entries at the Nats is among the largest of all events, RC, Free Flight and C/L.

Again, my apologies to Sparky and anyone other than AirClassix who may have been offended by my remarks. 

Shareen's husband, Ted.

p.s. I have "never" said I was going to win any stunt event prior to reading the final posted scores...the only numbers that coun...so please don't include me in your future lists of those who "brag" of their skills "in advance."

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2015, 01:46:56 PM »
I have been involved in running combat and stunt at the Nats.  Those events are run by individual volunteers.  For the Nats in which I was involved, the SIGs merely helped the AMA recruit the volunteers.  In most cases, the people running those events were the only ones willing to do it and capable of doing it.  I have flown stunt at every Nats for the last 16 years or so.  All those contests were very well run by the most competent people in stunt.  

I, through MACA, which AirClassix with his characteristic accuracy calls "MECA", recruited volunteers to run the combat Nats for several years starting in 1973.  I thought I'd have difficulty wrestling the management of Nats combat away from those who'd done it before 1973, but the AMA was delighted to find a volunteer.  They were very supportive and helpful.  Combat was run impartially, and, except for 1973, 1989, and 1995, when I was event director, competently.  I haven't paid much attention to Nats combat lately, but all seems well.  I pay my entry fee every year to support it.  

Dozens of witnesses saw something completely different than the MECA judges, but we had seen similar instances for years at the MECA-run Nats.

I contend that this is balderdash.  AirClassix should apologize, but I don't remember him yet apologizing for his earlier rant about how poorly MACA ran combat at the 1972 Nats.  MACA wasn't organized until 1973, primarily to provide better management of combat at the Nats.  

None of my group ever entered combat at the Nats again, but we sure continued dominating elsewhere.

Where's that?  I was pretty active in combat at the time and don't recall being dominated by, nor even hearing about anybody from Minnesota in those days except Phil Cartier.  He was pretty good.

From time to time we hear losers ranting about how they would surely triumph at contests if they went to them.  Usually they don't go, because the contests are "unfair", so you've never heard of these guys except on these fora.  Sometimes they do go and complain that they lose because the contests are "unfair".   We don't see these guys volunteering to judge, roll streamers, organize, or tabulate, even if they are qualified to do so.   Cursing the darkness, whether or not it's dark, is a lot easier than lighting a candle.  
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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2015, 01:59:52 PM »
Since you clearly know nothing about her, here's a capsule of what Shareen has done for the stunt community...none of which tells you how much personal time, resources and effort went into each.

In 1975 she accompanied me to the Nats for the first time, met ED Keith Trostle who was working his butt off like he's done for decades, liked him and volunteered to help out.  From that first year she went on to be the most consistent participant in operating the event for something like 35 of the next 40 or so years of CLPA at the Nats as well as a number of Team Trials and a World Championship.  She was the glue that held the parts together from year to year as EDs...every one of them a hard working volunteer himself, came, worked one, two or a half dozen or more events and eventually moved on...having done more than their share...as is the common and necessary thing needed for a specialized event that generates zero income to support the workers who are necessary to make the whole thing run.  I believe it is a fair statement to say there was not a single one of the numerous EDs for whom she worked who would say anything other than Thank You to Shareen for being that omnipresent, informed and hard working factor that assured consistent administration of the event over the years she served in that capacity.

Unlike the NFL, the Olympics and the other big buck events to which you refer as testimonials to the need to tarnish Shareen's hard work on behalf of others, neither the AMA nor PAMPA has the millions of $$$$$ those outfits pay to get people to do the work that our volunteers do.  Every Nats she worked she was up before dawn and busy until well after dark every day of the event plus a couple in advance doing the preparation, administering at the appearance judging, etc. 

Most importantly, however, it was Shareen that insured that each new Event Director understood HER INSISTENCE that...please read closely, AirClassix...THERE BE AN ASSISTANT TABULATOR; CARBON COPIES OF EACH SCORE SHEET; THAT THE SCORES FROM EACH SHEET WERE SEPARATELY TABULATED; THE RESULTS COMPARED AND ERRORS CORRECTED; AND THAT THE CARBON COPY OF EACH SCORE SHEET WAS THEN MADE AVAILABLE TO EACH COMPETITOR FOR THEIR OWN ANALYSIS AND, IF THEY FELT IT NECESSARY, TO TRIPLE CHECK THE ACCURACY OF THE SCORES AND, IF SO HAVE IT RE-ADDED.  HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THAT THE PERSON WHO INSISTED ON THIS DEGREE OF TRUE "TRANSPARENCY" OF THE SCORING PROCESS WAS SOMEHOW SUSPECT AND WORTHY OF YOUR PUBLIC CONDEMNATION. 

In addition to Shareen's labors at our competitive events she also VOLUNTEERED for a dozen or so years and served as Secretary/Treasurer of PAMPA, a task that generated serious demands on her time and talents to say nothing of phone calls from around the world at all hours of the day and night from members unclear on the concept of time zones.  When she ultimately passed on those tasks to her successor the transfer of paper work required ~a dozen full sized file boxes filled with membership data, each sheet of which had the date on which it was transacted entered by hand by the volunteer you suggest should have been kept in the kitchen.

All told, AirClassix, she spent, quite literally, uncountable thousands of hours of her life working on behalf of people...only a small percentage of whom were personally known by her...at a dollar value that, from personal experience I can verify, was seriously unbalanced and not in favor of her bank account.  For those nearly four decades of labor on behalf of others she received the following:  A cowboy hat autographed by dozens of thankful contestants from a Texas Nats, a nice plaque from the ED at the 10th Nats she worked declaring her a "perfect 10", a lovely faux crystal Trophy from another thankful CD and the contestants thanking her "For Service 'Above and Beyond' to C/L Stunt,"  and a final plaque declaring her a member of the PAMPA Hall of Fame.  These handful of remembrances are among her prized possessions and are constantly but inconspicuously on display in our home where she and I can see them and be reminded of what a great time we shared together as husband and wife...and a team who fought determinedly and honestly, won infrequently but enjoyed every minute of doing so together.

That's how I saw it.

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Offline Bradley Walker

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« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2015, 02:02:51 PM »
I'm just glad things seem to be very open these days,  and everyone seems to be coming home saying that the winner won because he flew the best.

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Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2015, 02:03:50 PM »
Dennis,

It embarrassing that anyone would knock Shareen Fancher. She always took her job as tabulator at the Nats very seriously and worked very hard at it. . The Tabulators have absolutely no controls over the scores they add up!

A couple of  years Shareen and her crew used my motorhome as a tabulators office due to inclement weather. I was not allowed in until the day's competition was over. Believe me Shareen took the job VERY SERIOSLY.

While there is always a possibility of the "Halo Effect" with the judges, the outcome is usually correct.

Doug said it all. there is always a reason you might be scored low on a maneuver. There is a simple answer: Fly Better!



 
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2015, 02:32:29 PM »
But any of us who truly care about the health of our hobby ought to be doing anything we can to remove any semblance of bias from especially our "national championships".

AirClassix must not truly care.  He sure never replied to my pleas for help with the statistical method used to select Nats stunt finals judges.

Nor does he show evidence of having a clue about Nats stunt, in particular.  In response to chronic losers abusing our volunteers, the Nats stunt process was changed so that:

  Seeding of qualifications circles is done by an objective formula published in advance, along with seedings
  All flight orders are drawn publicly, rather than generated by a random number generator
  Semifinals and finals judges are selected by a formula publicized and analyzed many times over the years on these fora.
  The program used for tabulation is available to anybody who wants to examine it.  

These changes were nontrivial to make, and I think they were unnecessary.  They did have the effect of shutting up any of the losers who went to the bother of seeing how the process works.  
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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2015, 02:54:46 PM »
Goodness gracious, it is embarrassing that simple concepts are so difficult to understand.  Mr. Fancher: I’ve addressed the APPEARANCE of bias.  Get a grip!  Surely this can’t be too difficult to understand ...

Mr. Rush: Were you at my match in the first round in ’75?  And you stand corrected: I PUBLICLY apologized in the Stuka Forum years ago for my “confusion” regarding MACAs history.  Perhaps you can tell us what happened at the Nats meeting in 1972?

You’ve mentioned my friend Phil Cartier, who grew up here.  Perhaps you’d like to ask him who was winning in this area?

It’s a shame that addressing the issue of the APPEARANCE of bias brings out such wrath.  It surely hasn’t held me back in terms of competing - I couldn’t possibly hope to compete with you “big boys”, and I’ll continue to admire your works of art as well as your flying skills.

Dennis

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2015, 03:05:05 PM »
It’s a shame that addressing the issue of the APPEARANCE of bias brings out such wrath.

Probably because so much work went into eliminating the appearance of bias: work done because of, but certainly not by, chronic losers throwing stink bombs.
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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2015, 03:10:47 PM »
Probably because so much work went into eliminating the appearance of bias: work done because of, but certainly not by, chronic losers throwing stink bombs.

Still waiting to hear what came out of the '72 meeting, Howard ...  I didn't attend, didn't join MACA for several years, and then only for a year or two.  I've never cared much for mixing politics and competition, but it seems to suit you just fine.

Dennis

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2015, 03:43:42 PM »
The '72 meeting to organize MACA?  It was P. T. Granderson's idea.  We decided to form an organization to run combat at the Nats, pick a Killer of the Year, and do a couple other things, which I forgot.  Maybe put out a newsletter. 

If helping with contests constitutes "politics", I'm guilty, but not nearly as guilty as Warren Tiahrt, Paul Walker, or Shareen. 
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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2015, 04:03:49 PM »
The '72 meeting to organize MACA?  It was P. T. Granderson's idea.  We decided to form an organization to run combat at the Nats, pick a Killer of the Year, and do a couple other things, which I forgot.  Maybe put out a newsletter.  

If helping with contests constitutes "politics", I'm guilty, but not nearly as guilty as Warren Tiahrt, Paul Walker, or Shareen.  

Oooooooooooh ... So why have you previously stated it wasn't formed until '73?  And who was elected/chosen/punished as officers?

Dennis,
yes, it must be MY memory is wrong ..

PS: Yes, Ted, Shareen, many people have contributed greatly to the success of PAMPA and the betterment of the stunt community.  Most of the complaints I've heard in the last several years regarding stunt at the Nats have come from young people.  If you can't understand the mind of a 14-year-old watching family members of a competitor involved in any way in judging/scoring ... well, apparently the concept is just too difficult to grasp!

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2015, 04:23:37 PM »
Absolutely cannot believe anyone would actually say anything bad about Shareen Fancher.  Hard-working, dedicated, caring, honest and selfless.....over many years. 

   
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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2015, 04:27:18 PM »
I think I remember the fourth item in the Nats meeting agenda.  It was to provide a framework for secession from AMA.  My experience with the '73 Nats put an end to that thinking for me.  I learned that the AMA is we, at least for our events.  It furnishes an overall organization and location for the Nats.  The rest is up to us.

MACA, a gleam in PT's eye,  was certainly not organized in time to have any effect on the 1972 Nats.  We did get going in time for the '73 Nats.  I was the first president and put out the first newsletter.  Except for the  '73 Nats, I didn't follow through, and Tom Southern, Bill Allen (as I recall) and others picked up the ball.  We were able to maintain some continuity in volunteers for the next few Nats.  MACA is still going strong.       

I don't know the PAMPA chronology, but I doubt if it was up and running for the 1972 Nats, either.  In retrospect, fliers in both events--combat anyhow-- should have anticipated the need for lots of Nats volunteers after the Navy bowed out and done some recruiting.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2015, 04:36:00 PM »
Maybe we should divert this discussion to the AMA's assurance that there would be a West Coast AMA Flying Site? Yes, I think that would be more productive. Maybe all the Dennis's back East would contribute, if it would keep us away from their primo Fun-Fly site in Muncie, Indiana?  S?P Steve
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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2015, 04:37:29 PM »
I think I remember the fourth item in the Nats meeting agenda.  It was to provide a framework for secession from AMA.  My experience with the '73 Nats put an end to that thinking for me.  I learned that the AMA is we, at least for our events.  It furnishes an overall organization and location for the Nats.  The rest is up to us.

MACA, a gleam in PT's eye,  was certainly not organized in time to have any effect on the 1972 Nats.  We did get going in time for the '73 Nats.  I was the first president and put out the first newsletter.  Except for the  '73 Nats, I didn't follow through, and Tom Southern, Bill Allen (as I recall) and others picked up the ball.  We were able to maintain some continuity in volunteers for the next few Nats.  MACA is still going strong.       

I don't know the PAMPA chronology, but I doubt if it was up and running for the 1972 Nats, either.  In retrospect, fliers in both events--combat anyhow-- should have anticipated the need for lots of Nats volunteers after the Navy bowed out and done some recruiting.

Well, I can see how you migrated to stunt ... If I'm not mistaken, one of the funniest(?) combat matches I recall from the Nats of the 1970s involved you and a competitor following one another through horizontal square eights.  We thought we'd wandered off to the stunt circles!

Dennis

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2015, 04:39:10 PM »
Absolutely cannot believe anyone would actually say anything bad about Shareen Fancher.  Hard-working, dedicated, caring, honest and selfless.....over many years. 

   

Me neither, Mike.  Who said something bad about Shareen?


Dennis

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2015, 04:51:22 PM »
Me neither, Mike.  Who said something bad about Shareen?


Dennis


You did.  You accused Shareen of cheating.

What do you call that?

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2015, 04:57:00 PM »

You did.  You accused Shareen of cheating.

What do you call that?

Please show me where, Paul.  Failing that, I'd suggest you offer an apology and look for a remedial reading program.

Were I competing and my wife involved in judging/scoring in any way, it would equally present an appearance of bias.  Not exactly rocket science, really.

Dennis

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2015, 04:58:06 PM »


I'm reminded of discussions a few years ago when I brought this up.  Several of "you" protested loudly; shortly thereafter someone (I think Bob Hunt, whom I greatly admire and appreciate, or Ted Fancher) posted something to the effect that "the top place at the Vintage Stunt Championships will undoubtedly come down to me, X and Y."

Really, can you spell bias!?!  I think it was actually humorous ...

And Ted Fancher's wife involved in score keeping?  Don't tell me it's all on the up and up - I believe that!  But even the appearance of bias IS bias!



Perhaps the real question is this: Can you honestly say YOU can judge stunt and score your friends, flying buddies, flyers you regularly are in touch with, exactly the same as you'd score a stranger?

Any of us would in my opinion be very wise to avoid that scenario.  We're just human!

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2015, 04:59:59 PM »
Now boys please play nice
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2015, 05:01:15 PM »
Dennis,, stating that the appearance of bias is bias,,

by YOUR statement,, the implications you made about the possibility of bias with Shareen tabulating are a statement of your opinion,,

YOU sir are the one needing to apologize,, your comments are not well thought out and leave much room for misinterpretation,,

( I learned this the hard way when I was taken to task on a comment I made some time ago)

You have touched on a very sensitive subject without understanding the way your words read,, the mere fact that you can hint at impropriety indicates a lack of understanding about the people who love and care for this event,,
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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2015, 05:26:52 PM »
Dennis,, stating that the appearance of bias is bias,,

by YOUR statement,, the implications you made about the possibility of bias with Shareen tabulating are a statement of your opinion,,

YOU sir are the one needing to apologize,, your comments are not well thought out and leave much room for misinterpretation,,

( I learned this the hard way when I was taken to task on a comment I made some time ago)

You have touched on a very sensitive subject without understanding the way your words read,, the mere fact that you can hint at impropriety indicates a lack of understanding about the people who love and care for this event,,

Well Mark, you're probably right and therefore I APOLOGIZE to anyone and everyone who felt I was impugning the integrity of folks like Ted and Shareen.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

I will in fact share that Mike Pratt has been a good friend, and that he and I were quite close prior to his move to Sig.  As you know, Mike went on to win the Nats - and he assured me some years ago that any conception that the stunt community at the Nats level was a "closed group" or a "club" was totally unfounded.  He further expressed his appreciation for the folks who literally bent over backwards to help him.

That said - and with all due respect to Howard's efforts - I can't say the same for combat as I/we saw it in the '70s.

And I confess to often trying to see things with the eyes of an outsider.  That top flyers like Brett & Doug are happy is great!  I would simply ask, "what does a young flyer, entering for the first time and completely unaware of "names", see?

I'll close with an observation on human nature: If someone calls me a child molester, I might even laugh - because clearly I know I'm not.  If someone calls me a thief and I get upset - well, perhaps I should look in the mirror and ask myself if it might be true.  If I get upset with anything said about me, the reaction is mine to own.

Dennis




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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2015, 06:19:23 PM »
I suspect that if AirClassix was to actually attend and participate in a PAMPA run Nats he would pretty quickly become apoplectic and leave the premises inasmuch as pretty much everyone working to make the event happen is related to someone actively competing at the event.  Although we've had our share of personality clashes over the years the stunt community by and large is just that...a community of people with common interests in which they invest substantial resources of time and, yes, money; none of which is ever likely to return to their wallets as a result of winning anything.  As a result there is pretty much no means by which we can convince disinterested people willing to do the work necessary to run such events (to say nothing of educating themselves to be conversant with and capable of officiating at such an arcane endeavor) for a price any could afford.

Pretty much every stunt contest in the world (the FAI's World Championships included) is managed and staffed by people who are keenly involved in and knowledgeable of the competitive pecking order of the day who participate administratively so as to allow the event to continue to flourish despite the great mass of the rest of the world devolving into Neanderthalesque human look-a-likes wandering around with their necks bowed and their eyeballs buried in Madonna's latest personal message tweeted to their brain...er, uh, iPhone.

RE the young man about whose perception of the event  AirClassix is so concerned.  I (like Bobby, David, Paul, Brett, Doug etc. etc.) went to my first Nats as a 15 year old kid and watched a talented young man named Billy, not much older than me, knock of the then King of the Hill, Bob Palmer in the battle for the Walker Cup.  I thought to myself, "Man, that is cool.  I want to do what Billy did."  It took me until 1982 to finally do so and there wasn't once that I thought those who had been beating me were purposely stacking the deck against me.  Is it possible that AirClassix' suggestion that today's winners would conspire against him denied him the possibility to do what every Walker Cup Champion chose to do to make it happen.


Ted

Offline Jason Greer

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Re: Will we ever get REAL modelers in charge of the AMA?
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2015, 06:40:30 PM »
Airclassix,

I have to ask, have you been to a stunt Nats recently?  I began attending the stunt Nats in 2008 and have attended 6 of the last 8. Please understand that I have no where near the experience as the other guys posting in this thread. From my experience as a newcomer, the recent nats process has flowed like a well oiled machine, which I'm positive has not happened on accident. I really don't see how a bias can be injected into the process due to the fact that everything is randomized from the beginning, including flight order, circle assignment, judge assignment, and judge circle assignment.

I'm not sure which young people have given you the impression that they had a negative experience at the nats, but the younger attendees have certainly not given me that impression. I am not 14, but I am one of the younger guys in attendance.  I can assure you, I do not believe any bias is occurring, at least not on purpose! Judges make mistakes. They're human just like you and I, but I think it's laughable to think they are all in cahoots to try to dictate the outcome. I've watched most of the guys that are always at the top. They are at the top because they are good, plain and simple.

Ted, Shareen, Howard, Paul, David, and everyone else that has contributed to developing the process and devoting the time and expense of directing the Nats, THANK YOU!  You guys and gals have done an awesome job!

Jason
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 07:07:53 PM by Jason Greer »
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