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Author Topic: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?  (Read 10255 times)

Offline Hoss Cain

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Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« on: December 10, 2010, 09:36:54 AM »
In case you may not be following all the "Hoop-La" reference the FAA's labor to regulate model aviation, the "leaks" are getting some attention. While the actual Notice of Proposed Rule Making is not scheduled until early next summer - June IIRC - there is a lot of discussion going on.
Some of these are:

- speed limit 100 mph (death to Pylon Racing, Giant Scale Racing, and many Big Birds plus a part of the industry.)

- altitude limit 400' with required telemetry to confirm (IMAC will suffer. Soaring will go out of business. Plus that portion of the industry other than the folks making telemetry stuff)

- weight limit 55 lbs -- no more waiver. (Just when the AMA /USA was getting their stuff together so we could compete with the Europeans.)

- no turbine jets (There goes a booming industry that is just now really coming alive.)

- required certification to fly (a RC license) Now there is something to think about!  That will drag the entire sport to a near stop. I well remember having to get that FCC license back in the '60s and '70s.  Now an FAA license!  Will that also require a physical?

Just who will be giving those "flt. checks"???? Will that also become more blind leading the blind?    With 41 years professional aviation behind me, that is how - IMO - the FAA did things.

One other thing in my mind is that there is a considerable discussion concerning less restrictions for those connected to a community based organization (CBO).    Will that be AMA? That means one big boon for AMA's declining membership problem!  #^   Makes a wondering person wonder ???
 

So I still ask: Will it only be Control Line and indoor remaining?  FAI RC and FF competition will cease to exist. The markets will go away and the businesses will also cease. Now CL has existed with a small cottage industry for some years, however will CL boom big again?

Folks, this is serious business.

Horrace Cain
AMA L-93 CD and Leader
New Caney, TX  (NE Houston area)

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2010, 09:47:02 AM »
HI Hoss,

I don't know what to say about all of the stuff going on.  The "rules" could really bring a downfall to much of what is happening today in the "serious" R/C areas, particularly.  Maybe not so much for "Park Fliers", etc., but upper competition will definitely be affected.

I can hope for a real resurgence in C/L flying, it would be really neat.  We have, however, benefited from the R/C industry a whole lot when it comes to some of our C/L supplies.  I have no real idea as to what can be done.  It seems to always be a case of the people in charge not having a clue as to what's being done in the field. 

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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2010, 09:56:05 AM »
Just what we need at times like these - more jobs down the drain!  The hobby, IMHO cannot and will not survive without r/c.  All this industry is based on the magnitude of the entire hobby, and I can't begin to imagine what the monetary benefits of this industry amount to.  Millions, or billions world-wide?  I think we need to flood the GADO's with protests and maybe it will reach the higher-ups.  (Seldom did before, but we can try.)
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Terrence Durrill

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2010, 10:25:16 AM »
No one wants political comments on these Model Airplane forums, HOWEVER, THE ABOVE POST BY WILL HINTON, SHOWS THAT WE, WHO MAKE UP THE MODEL AIRPLANE COMMUNITY DO NOT LIVE IN A VACUUM AND MUST BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE DIRECTION THIS COUNTRY IS TAKING.....IT IS AFFECTING EVERY ASPECT OF OUR LIVES, INCLUDING OUR HOBBY SPORT.  WE MUST OPPOSE THE BIG GOVERNMENT PHILOSOPHY WHICH WE HAVE IN WASHINGTON OR WE WILL WAKE UP ONE DAY WITH NO FREEDOMS, NO PROPERTY AND OUR BELOVED HOBBY SPORT REGULATED TO EXTINCTION.  I am not trying to rub anyone the wrong way here, but facts is facts, folks.   S?P    R%%%%

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2010, 12:22:18 PM »
Seems a solution to no known problem. Heck, we have a hard enough time now trying to fine places to fly. The public (and the FAA apparently) don't understand the difference between FF, CL and RC. I can't imagine that we won't just be thrown into the pot with the rest. The fact that we are within the rules will likely make little difference.

One note, while our country is apparently shooting itself in the foot again, other places are not. The hobby industry, while this would hamper it, would probably not kill it since folks in other countries won't we laboring under this particular oppression.

I'll say it again (at the risk of being deleted), Ben Franklin said it (to paraphrase): trading liberty for a little temporary safety insures the loss of liberty and safety.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2010, 01:02:32 PM »
Seems a solution to no known problem. Heck, we have a hard enough time now trying to fine places to fly. The public (and the FAA apparently) don't understand the difference between FF, CL and RC. I can't imagine that we won't just be thrown into the pot with the rest. The fact that we are within the rules will likely make little difference.

  Precisely.

      Brett

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2010, 01:55:09 PM »
Our AMA for years has bragged about all the influence they have, and all their attorneys fighting daily for our "right" to fly our R/C model planes anywhere and anytime.

So, what are they doing about this (anticipated) problem??

F.C.
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Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2010, 02:13:44 PM »
This is the first I have heard of this, I haven't see a word of it in Model Aviation, Stunt News or for that matter any publication. 

Does the government really believe the public will be safer with these kinds of draconian rules in place?  We are an easy target for this kind of proposal.  Small in numbers (few votes sacrificed) and few outside the hobby care if we go out of business. 

I sure would like to know what the AMA is doing about this.  Could someone with connections to the AMA leadership please pipe in and let us know what the AMA is doing?
Andy
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Offline John Stiles

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2010, 02:37:08 PM »
I developed a theory about 10 years ago, that countries around 200 years old would by necessity experience a move towards communism. And after failing that concept.....would see a revolution! My father-in-law, a WWII vet that just past away this spring, told me that he was starting to think I might be right. Today, I would say that the wheels of socialism are grinding freedoms we took for granted into dust. That said.......I will surrender my control handle, when they pry it from my cold dead fingers! ;D P/S Homeland security label myself and all veteran/patriots as terrorists! LL~
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2010, 03:29:44 PM »
Our AMA for years has bragged about all the influence they have, and all their attorneys fighting daily for our "right" to fly our R/C model planes anywhere and anytime.

So, what are they doing about this (anticipated) problem??

F.C.

Just like the Wolf in Pulp Fiction, the AMA is all over this.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/news/ama-faa.aspx

Because of the rules in the process only once the proposal comes out will it be the time for the public to comment.
 And I suspect the AMA will be very strongly suggesting a coordinated response from its members.

They have already been involved and suggested things stay as pretty much as they are.

The AMAs position is in yellow here:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/faa/recommendations.pdf

Lots of yacking on the RC forums about this.
As a glider guider I hope it all works out well. 400' limit is a joke.

Pat MacKenzie

MAAC 8177

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2010, 03:38:10 PM »
Our AMA for years has bragged about all the influence they have, and all their attorneys fighting daily for our "right" to fly our R/C model planes anywhere and anytime.

So, what are they doing about this (anticipated) problem

  I get various AMA Press releases and newsletters and this has been going for well over a year. One of my comments back was exactly as described above - how do we make sure that C/L is not affected. The answer was that C/L is not considered an aircraft by FAA standards as it is tethered to the ground and thus does not engage in free flying. My only comment back was to make sure the rule actually says that instead of being implied by a reference somewhere else. My concern is that, just like the FAR about shipping items that have come in contact with "fuel" and acceptable passivating agents, its too diverse and separated. They will teach the people that enforce the rule the high points, not the fine print. And we will get lumped in.

   I am not as concerned about the fallout of the *huge* potential impacts on R/C as a business affecting C/L. I hardly buy anything used for R/C now, so iI know you can do without for the most part.

   Brett

Offline Frank Imbriaco

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2010, 03:39:26 PM »
This is the first I have heard of this, I haven't see a word of it in Model Aviation, Stunt News or for that matter any publication. 

Does the government really believe the public will be safer with these kinds of draconian rules in place?  We are an easy target for this kind of proposal.  Small in numbers (few votes sacrificed) and few outside the hobby care if we go out of business. 

I sure would like to know what the AMA is doing about this.  Could someone with connections to the AMA leadership please pipe in and let us know what the AMA is doing?
Andy
 Andrew,
I guess you haven't been reading  Dave Mathewson's columns. Don't feel bad, you aren't alone. I suspect many modelers just read the reviews and advertisements in  Model Aviation Magazine; which is unfortunate.There has been a fair amount said in the magazine and on the R/C forums. I , for one, hope R/C Aerobatics, IMAC,  free-flight and Jets aren't severely impacted.  Go on you tube to see what the Austrian fellow did  last week with an R/C model around the Statue of Liberty and NYC skyline . Damned fool ! I'm a re-tread  and  immensely enjoy my return after a 40 year hiatus, but  equally love loving flying my  DA 100 35% Carden Cap and 2 meter pattern ships.
Time will tell...

Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2010, 04:16:07 PM »
As pointed out by others above this has been the subject of David Mathewson's Column in Model Aviation for the last 18 months.  You can dig out your back issues of Model Aviation or go to the AMA website:
www.Modelaircraft.org
Log in.
Just below your name in the upper right corner is a block marked "google Custom Search" enter "FAA Rules Proposal" in that block and hit search.
There you can read or download PDF files of the discushion.

Do not rely on Word of mouth, read it for yourself.
Clancy
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2010, 04:21:12 PM »
 Go on you tube to see what the Austrian fellow did  last week with an R/C model around the Statue of Liberty and NYC skyline . Damned fool !

   Or, alternately, create low-speed guided missile and have it fly across the Atlantic and then splash that all over the pages of your magazine.

   The event itself was pretty neat and a significant accomplishment, and I can appreciate it as a modeler. But from a "freedom from regulation" standpoint it was disastrous. No one can plausibly claim that model aircraft are harmless and not suitable for use in terrorist attacks any more.

    Brett

Offline John Stiles

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2010, 05:34:30 PM »
And now we have a new "shuttle program" it's said to be run by private companies....in fact, they just launched on and made a couple of orbits. It's not who you know, but.......... :-X
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.

Offline John Stiles

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2010, 05:38:12 PM »
AMA better get busy....a lot of R/C guys are selling out....I just got offered a whole mess of stuff today for $200. I promised the young fellow I'd try to help him sell the stuff. ;)
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2010, 05:42:11 PM »
   Or, alternately, create low-speed guided missile and have it fly across the Atlantic and then splash that all over the pages of your magazine.

   The event itself was pretty neat and a significant accomplishment, and I can appreciate it as a modeler. But from a "freedom from regulation" standpoint it was disastrous. No one can plausibly claim that model aircraft are harmless and not suitable for use in terrorist attacks any more.

    Brett

The same could be said for Ryder rental trucks, only more so. But any idiot with a licence could rent one and drive across the bridge.

The new proposed rules are about safety and other users of the "national airspace" (used to be called the sky), not terrorism.
No small irony that the real driving force behind them is the desire for unmanned UAVs by the big players. Modellers are just getting caught in the crossfire.

Pat MacKenzie
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2010, 05:48:32 PM »
{{{No one can plausibly claim that model aircraft are harmless and not suitable for use in terrorist attacks any more.}}}

 I will add to this if thats ok.
Model rockets,R/C Cars, Real Cars, Bicycles, Motorcycles, Humans.............

The seed is being planted in the public's mind. http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=19199.0


I made a post some time (year ago?) that we are not bringing politics to our discussion here but we are having it shoved in.
Not gona get any better.

Most of the post above seem to see and understand.

Bottom line is
YOU CAN NOT MAKE CRIMINALS INTO GOOD PEOPLE  WITH LAWS.
YOU CAN MAKE GOOD PEOPLE INTO CRIMINALS WITH LAWS.

Trick question: Who makes/passes laws?


Ok I should stop now...........................

Hope this mess goes away. Most of my R/C stuff is race or military and 100mph is probably a slow cruise for most of them.


 



David Roland
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2010, 06:09:59 PM »
This just found in my email

[AMA Protects All Your Flying Privileges.

The Academy of Model Aeronautics continues to meet and work with the FAA to protect your flying privileges. The AMA's advocacy team works hard on your behalf, and will do so even more intensely in 2011 as the FAA prepares to release the notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM). We're still working through some issues that may be satisfactorily resolved before the NPRM is released. At the same time, we need to make sure that our members are aware, engaged, and prepared to react, if necessary, when the time is right.

We ask that you keep informed by reading Model Aviation,  and AMA Today and visiting our FAA page.  ]

http://www.modelaircraft.org/news/ama-faa.aspx
David Roland
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2010, 09:05:14 PM »
I will reiterate the quote from Ben Franklin
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2010, 11:14:30 PM »
I know there is a "Ban on Politics" here, but I, myself, made the first reply post.  I do not see this thread as "politics" (yet) but as something that could affect our hobby.  As long as we respond in the manner of how it could affect our HOBBY, then this will stay.  Personal politics are forbidden here, we all know that.

Safety? Terrorism? I have no clue as to the reasons the lawmakers are using to promote regulations.  I can see where certain things are more inherit in their danger.  I can also see where terrorists could make use of "toy airplanes".  But I am not sure the points (size, speed, and altitude restrictions) brought out are the answer.  Let's hope some people "in the know" are able to influence the outcome.  Sanctions are coming down the road, but maybe the sanctions can be agreeable to all involved.

Big Bear
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Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2010, 05:05:33 AM »
Funny thing, these rules will be brought to you by the FAA, the same people that just said " we dont know who owns all of the airplanes in this country so every ownor must reregister"! Thats 400,000 airplanes. Hmmmm? reregister, register Hmmmm? Maybe we should have the NRA be our spokesman? Maybe not so funny?
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2010, 07:38:02 AM »
  Or, alternately, create low-speed guided missile and have it fly across the Atlantic and then splash that all over the pages of your magazine.

   The event itself was pretty neat and a significant accomplishment, and I can appreciate it as a modeler. But from a "freedom from regulation" standpoint it was disastrous. No one can plausibly claim that model aircraft are harmless and not suitable for use in terrorist attacks any more.

    Brett

Dr. Maynard Hill's trans-Atlantic flight was made with a genuine FAI-legal model airplane, which is to say under 5 kilos and 10 cc (in the King's English, 11 pounds and .61 cubic inches).

AMA has been totally remiss in it's "anything goes" approach to safety.  By allowing virtually unlimited power and mass, AMA has been inviting intervention by adult supervision for decades.  This day of reckoning is long overdue.
Paul Smith

Offline pat king

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2010, 08:18:34 AM »
An increase in C/L flying and participation would be a good thing.  y1 Let's hope it doesn't come as a result of curtailment of R/C flying. '' On that note, the R/C community needs to be very careful with their actions so as to not turn public opinion against model aircraft. Stupid stunts can do a tremendous amount of PR damage.

Pat
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Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2010, 08:42:00 AM »
Dr. Maynard Hill's trans-Atlantic flight was made with a genuine FAI-legal model airplane, which is to say under 5 kilos and 10 cc (in the King's English, 11 pounds and .61 cubic inches).

AMA has been totally remiss in it's "anything goes" approach to safety.  By allowing virtually unlimited power and mass, AMA has been inviting intervention by adult supervision for decades.  This day of reckoning is long overdue.

Both F2B and F3A fly with bigger motors now.
And even giant scale is recognized by the FAI (F3M).

Pat MacKenzie
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Offline Rob Killick

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2010, 09:48:27 AM »
Hi Guys ,

I'm definitely NOT trying to stir the pot , here ( I'm Canadian , not a U.S. citizen)

The more I read the responses to this topic , it REALLY sounds like the Firearms Registry , in Canada (billions of dollars wasted).

From what I have heard I can't import Castor oil and or fuels with Castor/synth blends , into Canada anymore(I've written to MAAC , to see if they know this to be true). I can't elaborate , as I don't know the facts .

I hope the AMA figures this one you guys ! y1

All the best ,

Rob Killick
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2010, 01:04:45 PM »
Dr. Maynard Hill's trans-Atlantic flight was made with a genuine FAI-legal model airplane, which is to say under 5 kilos and 10 cc (in the King's English, 11 pounds and .61 cubic inches).

AMA has been totally remiss in it's "anything goes" approach to safety.  By allowing virtually unlimited power and mass, AMA has been inviting intervention by adult supervision for decades.  This day of reckoning is long overdue.

   I can't fault the guy for doing it, and it was a pretty neat achievement.  He's clearly a master modeler who I certainly have a lot of respect for. The electrostatic wing lever thing is about as slick and idea as I have seen. So please don't interpret what I say as a criticism of Dr. Hill.

  However, for once I generally agree with your comments. R/C has been getting further and further out of control with both speeds*, sizes*, and irresponsibility. I don't consider the AMA to be all that remiss in coming up with rules that consider these issues. The problem is that in an awful lot of cases I have seen and heard of, they weren't followed and there was little or no consequences for not following them. It doesn't matter what rules you have if people aren't paying attention.

     I have much the same issue with a lot of what goes on in model mocketry, too. The models get bigger and bigger, the quality of the workmanship, on average, is still at a rudimentary level it was at in 1969 (although there are some magnificent exceptions, just like model airplanes), and worst of all, *they still fly them into open ranges and over people*!. Pretty much exactly the same objections I have to RC. I just wrote a letter to the president of the NAR after he asked why I let my membership lapse to that effect.

    The big difference is that rocketry is regulated out the wazoo despite a far better safety record that model airplanes. The rocket equivalents of AMA have even sued the government to try to get explosives exemptions based on a NPRM.

     Regulation has been a long time coming to RC, all we can hope is that it doesn't screw us along with it.

      BTW, there's another CL-only rule clash coming, I fear, but at least this one is with other modelers and people who can be reasoned with. 

     Brett

*I would note that the growth of the faster and bigger airplanes is hardly making the safety issues worse. If you get hit by a mid-60's Taurus at 6 lb going 100 mph, you aren't going to be any less dead than getting hit by a 54-lb chainsaw-motor airplane, or a 150 mph turbine. The only problem with the larger or faster or higher-tech airplanes is that even casual observers can easily see the danger.

Offline dale gleason

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2010, 01:42:59 PM »
Just a FYI.....AMA has a newsletter, "AMA Today" to which we can subscribe  (AMA members). A recent update told of Dave Mathewson (AMA President) and Rick Hansons' (AMA Government RElations & Regulatory Affairs Representative) recent trip to DC for  meetings with regulators on this subject, it isn't the first such meeting.

Anyway, it's available, and the most recent  copy includes a poll to take, just a questionaire to see how up to speed we may or may not be on certain FAA, Homeland Security, FCC functions, and also a place to send a question to FAA, should you have one. (I did).

FAA, and others ARE getting involved in model airplanes, that's a given, I just want them to know the difference between Control Line models vs RC models.

dale gleason

Offline donald raab

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2010, 02:07:25 PM »
I fly RC almost exclusively.  From gliders to E3D.  I do like to fly OTS and classic.  This problem is not something new.  In July 2001 BEFORE that day The G-8 were meeting in REurope.  There were warnings that the meeting site might be attacked with model airplanes.  Any tool or machine in human hands always has dual use.  What has changed is the simplicity and relaibility of being able to use these models for nefarious reasons.

1.  From fixed and interferable frequencies to 2.4 ghz.
2.  ARFs that all fly.
3.  Using WII and Iphones tuypes for control.  Flying is NO longer askill to be learned over a long period of time.
4.  GPS units that can point and forget.
5.  8 ounces od Peten can bring down a city block.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2010, 04:25:10 PM »
Both F2B and F3A fly with bigger motors now.
And even giant scale is recognized by the FAI (F3M).

Pat MacKenzie

True !!!

And also long overdue for review.   
Paul Smith

Offline John Stiles

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2010, 05:48:26 PM »
Last August, there was a collision between a full-size aircraft and a giant-scale
40% (~10 ft. wingspan) RC model. The full-size aircraft, a homebuilt biplane,
suffered damage to its lower wing but landed safely. The RC aircraft was completely
destroyed. This took place at a full-size private fly-in, where an RC group had been
invited to do a demo. From the video, it appears the majority of the blame
lies with the spotter for the RC pilot, who was not watching for incoming aircraft
but was watching the RC plane hovering over the runway (it was doing a demo of
so-called "3D" flying). The airport was private and had no tower. Because a full-size
piloted aircraft was involved, there is an ongoing NTSB investigation.

Some years ago at an RC jet event in Florida, a turbine powered RC jet crashed
through the roof of a nearby condo and started a fire which resulted in considerable
property damage, but no injuries.

Recently on RCGroups, someone was bragging of flying an RC aircraft to an altitude
of over 1 mile. This was done without obtaining a NOTAM or waiver from the FAA.
The thread was locked because of its controversial nature, some thinking it was
cool, some thinking it was reckless (duh).

So while I am not unsympathetic to some regulation of RC beyond what currently
exists, the problem with the government is that they usually take a one-size fits-all
approach which is excessively draconian. For instance, I see no need to regulate
electric RC park-flyer foamies, and I heard they might be exempt, but that was just
a guess.
I thought the basic rule was[when no tower is present]planes must do a fly-by before landing, which gives the RC guys a chance to get down and out of the way ???
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2010, 06:57:58 PM »
I thought the basic rule was[when no tower is present]planes must do a fly-by before landing, which gives the RC guys a chance to get down and out of the way ???
If you have not seen the video, the guy in the full scale does a full power low pass down the runway at ~30' with smoke on, basically showing off.
Meanwhile there are people standing on the side of and on the runway, and lots of planes (model and full scale) parked adjacent to it.

So even if he did not see the model, he should not have flown over the people.
The guy flying the model had no chance to avoid him.

http://www.taildraggersinc.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129

Of course vision over the nose of the bipe is probably pretty bad, but that is no excuse.

Pat MacKenzie
MAAC 8177

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2010, 09:39:32 AM »
>>Any tool or machine in human hands always has dual use.<<

This a good point. Anything can be a weapon. You can make dangerous stuff from items obtained at the grocery store. A hammer has many purposes. We are either free or we aren't. This degrees stuff is killing us.
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Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2010, 01:30:38 PM »
I doubt it.  But I have to say this. Sooner or later some idiot with a giant scale model will fly it with a passenger be it animal or human and kill or injure the passenger. The headlines will do no one any good. The next thing that is possible is that the terrorist will attack somewhere with a turbine powered model bomb ans what can stop that? If it is possible someone will do it.
Chuck Feldman
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Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2010, 01:44:17 PM »
  I don't want to sound churlish, but some of the very high speed jet turbine models, scare me rigid. I for one would feel a lot safer if such things were banned or at least not flown anywhere near me! At least c/l speed is flown behind substantial chain link enclosures!

Regards,

Andrew.
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Offline mike hartung

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2010, 02:24:46 PM »
As a member of both the full scale aircraft community (just barely) and also the model aircraft community I see the collision between the model and full scale as a very unfortunate accident. It was defiantly preventable and a lack of good definite communication was to blame. I would ask, that while it was unfortunate to louse an 8,000 dollar RC plane, the cost to the full scale pilot could have been much higher (his life). I fly control line at the local municipal airport and I have witnessed a lack of regard that some in RC have for full scale aircraft. The airport is funded on the federal , state, and local level by taxes that we all pay and there is no good reason that both full scale and model aircraft can not coexist. We must take personal responsibility for our actions. We need to know the existing rules before we go out and commit aviation, we must educate ourselves and our friends to the rules of the air. If we choose not to regard the existing rules then there will be even more Draconian rules made be people that are even farther removed from our actual endeavors than now.
blue skys and tail winds to all.

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2010, 03:02:22 PM »
As to irresponsible people, they have been around through out eternity.  There's always one in every crowd, despite any rules or laws.  It's a shame the actions of a few will probably result in the loss for many.  Only the individual can changes his own actions, no one else.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2010, 03:35:54 PM »
  I don't want to sound churlish, but some of the very high speed jet turbine models, scare me rigid. I for one would feel a lot safer if such things were banned or at least not flown anywhere near me! At least c/l speed is flown behind substantial chain link enclosures!

    I agree that these are a lot more dangerous to be flying around on a 750mw transmitter. But I don't think the size and speed make it much more dangerous than a typical pattern plane. They are all potentially lethal, even the 40-size ARF trainers.

    And I have seen, in general, much more responsible behavior from turbine pilots. They seem to have some respect for the activity and not anybody can just get them and fly them, and the expense weeds out a lot of the casual pilots.

    The guys I worry about are the duffers and the weekend buy-and-fly types, particularly those that fly unaffiliated with a club - and there are A LOT of them. I would guess, with minimal data, that probably 3/4 of the people flying R/C do it outside the AMA club system. I have seen more stuff that just astonished me in my brief encounters with these guys than I have ever seen at real club flying. Like the guys who flew from the access road next to highway 101 near our site. They were taking off and landing right in the middle of the road, and flying over the highway. 101 is a major highway, and just north of the San Jose airport the road is always packed. These guys were taking off and landing on an open street less than 50 feet from the side of the road. I was over there for about 5 minutes trying to get them to stop and in that time, only a chain-link fence kept them from crashing into the highway.

   Another example - some guys flying a 40-sized ARF trainer in the park near my house. This is a tiny little park, with a baseball field and some tennis courts, and not much room for anything else. I used to test HLG's there but it was too small even for that. They were flying this thing on a Sunday afternoon in the packed park. Oh, and bordering the park on all sides, dense residential housing. It was halfway from the park to my house, which is about *half a mile* away from the park. If that thing goes down, it's hitting something expensive  - or someone. They were taking off and landing over the tennis court and the *active little-league game*. I go down there, say, hey, guys, this is crazy. "Oh, it's OK, I have insurance" (which is what they always say). I guess waving your AMA card over someone's lifeless body will make them spring back to life. Not to mention that in any of these cases that insurance is worth warm rat sh*t - safety code violations all over the place.

    I have dozens of similar tales, and they almost all involve *casual R/C fliers*. If you follow the AMA safety code the risk is minimal, but that's very rare. Most R/C "duffers" I have seen have no compunction about flying over and around people and get hostile if you tell them to stop.  There's not a lot an organization like the AMA can do to self-police this *if people don't care*. So, someone else is going to police it - even though pretty much the same issue arose at the beginning of the "gas" age, and it didn't work then, either.

    Brett

   

Offline GGeezer

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2010, 06:51:52 PM »
Brett,
About 35 years ago, some duffers like you mention were R/C flying in a small downtown city park next to a hospital with unmuffled engines on planes that are considered small by today's standards. They created such a disturbance and safety hazard that the city enacted a bylaw forbidding the flying of model planes in all city parks. Fortunately, some of us were able to lobby city council into only banning R/C flying and not C/L and other types of models. This bylaw is still in affect but ignored by the park fliers and now by the large-model electric fliers. So far there hasn't been an accident or situation to force the bylaw, but it will happen.
Ignorant people complain that "Government" is responsible for laws restricting whatever, but what they forget is that in a democracy, THEY are government. Law makers don't take action on their own, they only respond to complaints and lobbies by tax-paying citizens, so stop blaming the politicians and do something about the people who put our hobby at risk.

Orv.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2010, 08:05:49 PM »
Brett,
About 35 years ago, some duffers like you mention were R/C flying in a small downtown city park next to a hospital with unmuffled engines on planes that are considered small by today's standards. They created such a disturbance and safety hazard that the city enacted a bylaw forbidding the flying of model planes in all city parks. Fortunately, some of us were able to lobby city council into only banning R/C flying and not C/L and other types of models. This bylaw is still in affect but ignored by the park fliers and now by the large-model electric fliers. So far there hasn't been an accident or situation to force the bylaw, but it will happen.
Ignorant people complain that "Government" is responsible for laws restricting whatever, but what they forget is that in a democracy, THEY are government. Law makers don't take action on their own, they only respond to complaints and lobbies by tax-paying citizens, so stop blaming the politicians and do something about the people who put our hobby at risk.

  And don't get me wrong, it's not all buy-and-fly types are morons. But just about all the real morons I have seen were buy-and-fly, duffers, "guys who never get past one ARF trainer after another for years", whatever you might want to call them.

   And your experience is pretty much what I think it happening. It only takes a few incidents, and no one is going to make any distinction between C/L and anything else.

     Brett

Offline Bill Heher

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2010, 10:49:37 PM »
 I get various AMA Press releases and newsletters and this has been going for well over a year. One of my comments back was exactly as described above - how do we make sure that C/L is not affected. The answer was that C/L is not considered an aircraft by FAA standards as it is tethered to the ground and thus does not engage in free flying. My only comment back was to make sure the rule actually says that instead of being implied by a reference somewhere else. My concern is that, just like the FAR about shipping items that have come in contact with "fuel" and acceptable passivating agents, its too diverse and separated. They will teach the people that enforce the rule the high points, not the fine print. And we will get lumped in.

   I am not as concerned about the fallout of the *huge* potential impacts on R/C as a business affecting C/L. I hardly buy anything used for R/C now, so iI know you can do without for the most part.

   Brett
Brett- sometimes we think so much alike it is scary. I also sent my concerns via E-mail to the AMA working group, expressing the exact same point- " Please make sure that C/L is identified as a distinct and non-applicable segment of model aviation". I got the same canned response" C/L is not considered an aircraft since it is tethered to the ground".  
Guess what - there are balloons that are tethered to the ground - and carry heavy loads of gear to monitor the Gulf / Keys / SE Atlantic for drug smugglers. I believe that when they are deployed there are NOTAMs in effect - so they are subject to regulation- and they belong to another Gov't agency.

If you think you won't be included in any rule from the FAA just because you are not mentioned- you are kidding yourself.  I dealt with the FAA on many regulatory issues for almost 10 years ( AD/ FAR/ NPRM on commercial airline powerplants).
Sometimes the only way to convince the person standing in front of you that the regulation does not apply to you is to find the exact section / paragraph / sub-paragraph that spells out your exemption. If you can't show them that - then things can go either way- but usually their way.

We need to keep the awarness level of the AMA and FAA elevated that we pose no threat, and need it spelled out in plain English that we are EXEMPT / Not applicable. Of course plain English and FAA regulations are mutually exclusive- but we have to do what we can.
Bill Heher
Central Florida and across the USA!
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2010, 11:53:42 PM »
As to irresponsible people, they have been around through out eternity.

  Exactly - the new part is that our highly advanced society will happily ban entire activities for fear of singling out individuals and "discriminating" against  - the irresponsible!

     Brett

Offline John Stiles

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2010, 05:30:34 AM »
......... but what they forget is that in a democracy, THEY are government. Law makers don't take action on their own...............so stop blaming the politicians ..........

Orv.
??? Uhhhhhh.......that may have applied a long time ago. But today's trends don't exactly back that statement up! But it doesn't much matter to me, if they outlaw C/L; it won't stop me from flying on my land....I'll just be an outlaw! H^^
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.

Offline Lester Nicholson

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2010, 10:14:36 AM »
complacency and apathy are our biggest enemy. We need to collectively convince all of our friends and acquaitances to get on the phone and write letters to all of our legislators and let them know how we feel.     Nick

Offline John Stiles

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2010, 12:05:51 PM »
complacency and apathy are our biggest enemy. We need to collectively convince all of our friends and acquaitances to get on the phone and write letters to all of our legislators and let them know how we feel.     Nick
You got that right....I don't know if its apathy or just plain laziness, but government by the people means the people need to do something besides residing in their comfort zone. Last election in Arkansas and some other states showed exactly what happens when the people speak up!
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.

Offline EddyR

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2010, 12:47:24 PM »
The president was in Charlotte last week and the RC club I belong to sent out a email that we were told there would be no RC flying in the area around Charlotte that day.
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2010, 08:29:12 AM »
So what happens when someone doesn't watch the news or gets on the computor and decides to go flying?  Are the Feds going to confiscate my equipment?  If the media wasn't such a blabber mouth group, nobody would know the pres was in town.  Our downtown airport won't take Air Force 1 and the main airport is 20+ miles away from down town.  I vaguely remember when Nixon was in office seeing all the security on the over passes on the way to work.  The so called government of the people is getting rediculous to me.  Or they are getting very paranoia. S?P
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Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2010, 05:34:39 AM »
Yesterday I mentioned all this stuff to my wife. After she thought about it all she replied, "What can be done about it?" I couldn't give her an answer.
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Offline mccoy40

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2010, 07:27:31 AM »
Well.....

I think it would be a bonanza to the r/c world - We'd all be outlaws! Gangs of Jet flying R/C guys hanging out in low life outlying areas with Chicks all wearing leather or practically next to nothing  :!

The Chinese imports would dry up and blow away - no more ARFS, ARCS or RTF's  :!

Kids would think it was cool cause it's edgy  VD~

Nahhh! who am I kidding - nothing is going to happen  ::)


Joseph Meyer
Philadelphia, PA

Offline John Stiles

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Re: Will Control-Line again reign Supreme?
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2010, 12:13:33 PM »
Well.....

I think it would be a bonanza to the r/c world - We'd all be outlaws! Gangs of Jet flying R/C guys hanging out in low life outlying areas with Chicks all wearing leather or practically next to nothing  :!

The Chinese imports would dry up and blow away - no more ARFS, ARCS or RTF's  :!

Kids would think it was cool cause it's edgy  VD~

Nahhh! who am I kidding - nothing is going to happen  ::)



Wanna bet? I already have my leather jacket shined up......I'm gonna see if I can recruit a bunch of my old biker girlfriends.....the ones that's still among the living LL~
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.


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