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Author Topic: Why is my wing cracking?  (Read 11597 times)

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2011, 06:40:39 PM »
Matt,

Only you know how you built the airplane. My TP plans have no rib in the area the notch is in. If the problem is in fact what I suspect, it is a relatively easy fix. Half of which will be covered by a new fillet. Some careful wood work, filling and paint that lines up with existing paint edges and I bet you won't even see it.

Regardless of the fix, it still hurts to cut into a new airplane!

Mike

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2011, 06:56:11 PM »
Hi Mike,

Here is a picture of what I mean by a 1/4" box.  I'm also attaching a picture of how I joined the wing into the fuse.

The bellcrank post hasn't moved because I can see it in the pipe tunnel. I mounted the bellcrank so it's "floating" on an 1/8" rod with wheel collars on both sides of it to keep it in place (pretty standard technology).

I haven't done exploratory surgery on the plane, but it almost seems like it is glue joints that are failing because, it seems like the cracks are starting where the seam would be when I made the box to help box in the tank compartment after I cut some of the wing out.

The 3rd picture I attached is to show how the bellcrank is mounted. It's not that great a picture, but it will give you an idea.


Matt,
In the second picture with the plane upside down, how is the lower fuselage joint spliced?  It looks very close to where the cracks are occurring on the lower forward area. Once the joint there is comporomised, then the twist of the fuselage from the engine loads would spread the cracks around the LE and then up the top of the wing to fuselage joint.  So once again, what does this splice look like inside the plane?

Paul

Offline M Spencer

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2011, 07:35:48 PM »
  Odd , . Normally its the Outer goes in pitstops .  :! :##

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2011, 08:23:53 PM »
Matt,
I think Paul has hit on the real problem. The pull test, in reality, is only testing the strength of the bellcrank mount, the leadouts and the lines. If the bellcrank has not moved that is not the problem. This pull is not meant to see if the wing will pull out of the fuselage, although some will argue that point.

My bellcranks are mounted on a top and bottom plate that butt against the main spar on the forward face of the mount. From the planform it is a constant width between the center ribs, then tapers forward on the inboard and outboard sides to the next rib. These plates are top and bottom to mount the bellcrank post and are recessed so that the center sheeting goes over the plates on the top and bottom of the wing. I have been doing this for about 20 years. Bob Hunt uses a similar method. With the load distribution against the main spar and the plate also glued to the sheeting there absolutely no way the bellcrank will move.

Now back to Paul's thoughts:

Most fuselage cracks are at the leading edge of the wing and at the flap hinge line. I first observed this when I was in my early teens.

I NEVER cut the fuselage to install the wing. My 1/32 ply nose doublers go to a little over an inch behind the hinge line. This doubler also does not have a straight cut at the aft end, but rather is elliptical at the aft end.  I then slide the wing into place. Yes the flap horn in in the wing slot before installing the wing, and then permanently affixed to the wing.  I have not had fuselage cracks since I started doing this many, many, moons ago.

Another reason to not cut the fuselage for installing the wing, is that the fuselage will tend to bow from nose to tail, and you could lose proper wing and stab incidence.

Over the years I have seen people brag about ultra light airplanes that after some flights literally exploded in the air. Remember that you want to build as light as possible, BUT, there are areas that have to strong. Only beef up where it is required. This philosophy is used in full size airplanes. I remember well the disagreements between designers, stress engineers and the weights group. I am sure that Paul also relates to that!... Right Paul??

It is possible to build light and strong.


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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2011, 07:54:31 AM »

Matt,
In the second picture with the plane upside down, how is the lower fuselage joint spliced?  It looks very close to where the cracks are occurring on the lower forward area. Once the joint there is comporomised, then the twist of the fuselage from the engine loads would spread the cracks around the LE and then up the top of the wing to fuselage joint.  So once again, what does this splice look like inside the plane?

Paul

All we did was glue the lower fuselage back into place...
Matt Colan

Eric Viglione

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2011, 08:22:18 AM »
OK, I've held off posting... but guys, aren't we missing the obvious solution here? I'm no engineer, but I've gotten by on seat of the pants wisdom pretty well.

Solution:

1 - Eliminate that wing cutout all together - Fill it in and glass over the repair tying in the 2 fuse sides as well.
2 - Re-install some form of F2 former
3 - Add internal wing fillets anywhere you can reach from pipe tunnel and repair external fillets and re-paint.
4 - Either get a custom tank thats deeper at the rear or add a 1 Ounce sump (or whatever needed) to existing tank, eliminating need for cut-out.

Reasoning: Any Patch to that box will just be a patch. Micro-fracture and damage via established load paths with that cut-out in the wing have been established and already given way. Even with the box "sistered" up, those
damaged load paths will work in reverse and tear apart that box again. That's why I say eliminate it.

So, am I crazy, all wet, just plain dumb or all of the above?

EricV

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2011, 09:57:36 AM »
All we did was glue the lower fuselage back into place...

Matt,

I think Paul has hit on something here.  I, too, noted the wrinkled paint in the vicinity of where the front of the wing saddle is glued back after installing the wing.  There has to be some sort of "splice" doubler (tripler, in this case as there should already have been a ply doubler where the saddle was cut out) installed afterward to complete a solid "box" around the wing.  Without the tripler the wing saddle becomes more a piece of the wing rather than a piece of the fuse and every time an outside load is placed on the plane the wing "INCLUDING THE SADDLE" tries to separate itself from the fuselage.

If your saddle doesn't have such splices installed I would do whatever is necessary to get some solidly in place (front and rear).  I would then get some tiny drills and drill many small holes through the splits to allow a liberal application of CYa to penetrate the fractured joints.  The holes should be directed so that both the fuse and wing will receive the application of CYA. This process would allow you to do most of the "ugly" work inside the pipe tunnel and only require refinishing the fracture areas (plus the holes for injecting the CYA) on the outside.

Ted

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2011, 10:31:47 AM »

Reasoning: Any Patch to that box will just be a patch. Micro-fracture and damage via established load paths with that cut-out in the wing have been established and already given way. Even with the box "sistered" up, those
damaged load paths will work in reverse and tear apart that box again. That's why I say eliminate it.

So, am I crazy, all wet, just plain dumb or all of the above?

EricV


    We have also been having an email thread on this one with Matt, Ted, and I, and I think we are beginning to get the picture of what happened and is happening. Give us a bit and we will verify it, and if it's what we think, we might go over it to make sure it doesn't happen to anyone else.

    Brett

p.s. you can see part of the problem in this picture:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22546.0;attach=86073;image
  
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 11:39:41 AM by Brett Buck »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2011, 11:26:51 AM »
1 - Eliminate that wing cutout all together - Fill it in and glass over the repair tying in the 2 fuse sides as well.
2 - Re-install some form of F2 former
3 - Add internal wing fillets anywhere you can reach from pipe tunnel and repair external fillets and re-paint.
4 - Either get a custom tank thats deeper at the rear or add a 1 Ounce sump (or whatever needed) to existing tank, eliminating need for cut-out.

Reasoning: Any Patch to that box will just be a patch. Micro-fracture and damage via established load paths with that cut-out in the wing have been established and already given way. Even with the box "sistered" up, those
damaged load paths will work in reverse and tear apart that box again. That's why I say eliminate it.

So, am I crazy, all wet, just plain dumb or all of the above?
Totally aside from anything else, I've had good success with fixing stuff like this by whacking it up and rebuilding it the way it should have been in the first place.  And I've had good success with holes that are properly reinforced.  I think that a fix as I describe would work well.  Not notching the thing in the first place may have been better, but I don't see a way to 'un-notch' that wing short of re-doing the whole leading edge that's going to work better than properly reinforcing the hole that's there.

But if Paul & Ted are right then it's not the hole per se.  When I saw Paul's post I exclaimed D'oh! and dropped out of the conversation.  I had seen the same cracks that Paul had, but hadn't considered that they were the first damage with the rest following (I had thought things had gone the other way around).  And this after lecturing the world on visualizing the stress flow of an airplane in flight, including things like outside corners...  At least I had told Matt to try pushing on the thing every which way and see what made the cracks move...

I'm looking forward to finding what caused this, so I can avoid the same mistake on anything that I do.
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Offline Larry Cunningham

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2011, 05:00:10 PM »
Don't overlook the possibility of some strange resonance which did it. And once it got started, it may have become worse with the weakened structure around the crack. Something that is very rigid (say, a high quality glue joint?) is no guarantee against resonance, in fact it can contribute to the problem. It might only manifest itself when the airframe is stressed, say during maneuvers, so you might not notice it on the ground..

I suppose the only answer is for you to go electric, and remove that nasty old piped engine system, all of it including fuel tank, and send it to me, Matt..  :##

In all seriousness, good luck in solving the problem. I can't really imagine any inherent flaws with the design itself.

Best regards.

L.

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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2011, 08:13:02 PM »
OK, I've held off posting... but guys, aren't we missing the obvious solution here? I'm no engineer, but I've gotten by on seat of the pants wisdom pretty well.

Solution:

1 - Eliminate that wing cutout all together - Fill it in and glass over the repair tying in the 2 fuse sides as well.
2 - Re-install some form of F2 former
3 - Add internal wing fillets anywhere you can reach from pipe tunnel and repair external fillets and re-paint.
4 - Either get a custom tank thats deeper at the rear or add a 1 Ounce sump (or whatever needed) to existing tank, eliminating need for cut-out.

Reasoning: Any Patch to that box will just be a patch. Micro-fracture and damage via established load paths with that cut-out in the wing have been established and already given way. Even with the box "sistered" up, those
damaged load paths will work in reverse and tear apart that box again. That's why I say eliminate it.

So, am I crazy, all wet, just plain dumb or all of the above?

EricV


In what I've been reading here and the email thread I'm having with Ted and Brett, I think I have an idea on how I could repair it, all while going from inside the pipe tunnel.  I make a cut out so that I could go into the wing where the cracks are, reinforce everything and then when I put the piece of sheeting back, I glass over where I made the cutout and then put fillets onto the fuse sides.  It seems like the easiest way to fix things without cutting the exterior of the airplane.
Matt Colan

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2011, 10:23:51 PM »
The absolute safest way it to hang it on the wall and build a new one. Learn from your mistakes. Remember solid is not always better. 1/16 sheeting place strategically will fair better than a so called solid joint. (not sure if anyone understands my madness) X ed inner supports.

I know you don't want to hear that but you will be farther ahead if you do and may not loose a engine from a catastrophic failure. Your Young and it should only take 2 weeks to frame up and 2 weeks to finish, Look back in the forum for my 11 day ARES, that airplane won the spirit of 62 award and is no slouch. Right Dennis?
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2011, 12:16:42 AM »
Random thoughts from the dark ages

No wing flex in Beam can overload center section.......Rock Maple Spars help.

Shaped (Milled,Cut..) Sheet Basswood spar doubler out several bays per side for pipe tunnel hack.

Depending on 1/16 sheet balsa for the compression reversal to tension loads is not for long life airframes .

Extra wing tip weight will delay the shedding of outboard wing on AMA fast Combat......
The lines, connectors, guides handle the inboard end in several interesting ways.

Resonance or Vibration and structural(failure) frequencies in tune = oops!  and other choice words.
Changing Mass will change structural frequencies. Changing RPM will change things from the other end.
Harmonics.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 02:02:28 AM by W.D. Roland »
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Offline EddyR

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2011, 12:15:49 PM »
I have read all the comments and agree with the idea it all started at the body joint at the bottom. Well we all seam to know that but here is what I would do. I would remove the body from the wing and replace the cut out and remount the top of the body to the  repaired wing using using 1/4 square inside the body at the wing joint. then build a new strong bottom with the proper joint between the bottom and the nose.That last  part is the most critical. All this if the wing is OK. Make a sump tank like Eric said. Not much to refinish. You could use a different paint color in the rapaired section and it would not show. Start it now and it will be done in 6-10 days.  I would not fly it any other way. There are no appearance points at the team trials.
Ed
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2011, 12:17:40 PM »
The absolute safest way it to hang it on the wall and build a new one. Learn from your mistakes. Remember solid is not always better. 1/16 sheeting place strategically will fair better than a so called solid joint. (not sure if anyone understands my madness) X ed inner supports.

   Actually, I don't follow you- having something flexible (and therefore uncompetitive and inconsistent) that manages to stay together forever isn't advancing the cause. The cause being maximizing the likelihood of winning contests. Tossing something together at Warp 9 and hoping it works with a few days of trimming and practice is something that maybe a very experience modeler could do with some chance of success, but the chance of doing it as a relative novice with maybe 3-4 airplanes under his belt, and only one complex model, is darn near zero.

     The idea that you would take an airplane that is proven competitive, and hang it on the wall ~5 weeks before a critical contest is not good advice. I agree that it needs to be safe, but merely reinforcing the fuselage is sufficient to ensure that. If the fuse stays together, the chances of the wing coming out completely is essentially zero so it will be safe enough. The real goal is to make sure it both stays together AND is solid enough to be competitive at the TT. That will likely take more effort to achieve that, given the fact that the wing is double-covered but *only to the fuse sides*, which is a pretty serious, "almost-certain-to-be-fatal-eventually" problem.

     So I think it's going to be fixable and the airplane will be safe and competitive pretty soon.

     Brett

p.s - some of the advice in this thread is borderline insane - you can repair it in place just as well as you can by taking the fuselage off the airplane!!!!!

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2011, 01:37:08 PM »
  Actually, I don't follow you- having something flexible (and therefore uncompetitive and inconsistent) that manages to stay together forever isn't advancing the cause. The cause being maximizing the likelihood of winning contests. Tossing something together at Warp 9 and hoping it works with a few days of trimming and practice is something that maybe a very experience modeler could do with some chance of success, but the chance of doing it as a relative novice with maybe 3-4 airplanes under his belt, and only one complex model, is darn near zero.

     The idea that you would take an airplane that is proven competitive, and hang it on the wall ~5 weeks before a critical contest is not good advice. I agree that it needs to be safe, but merely reinforcing the fuselage is sufficient to ensure that. If the fuse stays together, the chances of the wing coming out completely is essentially zero so it will be safe enough. The real goal is to make sure it both stays together AND is solid enough to be competitive at the TT. That will likely take more effort to achieve that, given the fact that the wing is double-covered but *only to the fuse sides*, which is a pretty serious, "almost-certain-to-be-fatal-eventually" problem.

     So I think it's going to be fixable and the airplane will be safe and competitive pretty soon.

Note that Robert is in the minority here -- most folks are trying to suggest avenues to pursue to get the thing fixed. 

I don't have your experience with CLPA specifically, but I've been a sport flyer for a long, long time, and I learned how to fly RC on planes that I designed and built from scratch, and in the process occasionally rebuilt planes that came home in a grocery bag.  I think that Robert's suggestion comes from the impulse we all have after a crash, which is to stomp the plane into the ground and start over.

One should always resist that impulse -- instead, one should look at the plane with an eye to assessing what's good and what's bad, and decide what's the best way to get there from where we are now, unencumbered by what recent events may have made you wish to do, or what looks impressive in magazine reports after the fact.

Quote
p.s - some of the advice in this thread is borderline insane - you can repair it in place just as well as you can by taking the fuselage off the airplane!!!!!

I hope that Matt is taking this (rather large!) thread with an equally large grain of salt.  We only have pictures and the occasional news bulletin -- Matt's the man on the ground here, he knows what his skill set is, and he's got the best chance of actually knowing what's going on with the airplane.  I know what I would think I would do if I had a plane with those stated symptoms, but repair plans, like battle plans, often get changed at the first contact with the enemy.

I'm not sure why you're making your crack about repairing it in place vs. reducing the airplane back to an ARC and starting over.  That's almost as crazy as hanging it on the wall and starting from bare balsa.  If the actual problem doesn't require it, it's more crazy.  Finishing a plane is a huge part of the total work, and any repair approach should -- quite rightly -- be assessed with an eye toward the damage it's going to do to the finish.  I suppose that one could make the claim that because you don't get appearance points in FAI that you could fudge this -- I wouldn't, unless it was making the difference between going and not going. 

I know that I was recommending an approach that might avoid any damage to the external finish of the plane, but that was prefaced with an 'if', and that 'if' was if the damage was what I thought it was.  And I didn't even take the approach that certain other contributers to this forum do, and tell him what to do while assuming that I was the only human being in the whole entire history of the race that has ever possessed a sense of judgment.  Instead, I figured that even at his age he's accomplished enough that I can just suggest an approach, and trust him to decide on the details. Clearly, if the repair is going to fix damage that doesn't matter then it is pointless.

So, Paul Walker suggested a problem, and an appropriate fix that could be carried out without disturbing the external finish -- are you suggesting that it's better that Matt get out the knife and saw and 'remove the fuselage' if that turns out to be the problem?  Instead of sanding a cruddy few square inches of paint off of a section of the plane that'll never be seen, and putting in some cruddy unfinished doublers that will again never be seen, and maybe getting out an acid brush and slathering some cruddy plain old epoxy glue on it so it doesn't absorb fuel?  This one-afternoon task is worse than ripping the whole plane apart and starting over?
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2011, 01:52:01 PM »
  Actually, I don't follow you- having something flexible (and therefore uncompetitive and inconsistent) that manages to stay together forever isn't advancing the cause. The cause being maximizing the likelihood of winning contests. Tossing something together at Warp 9 and hoping it works with a few days of trimming and practice is something that maybe a very experience modeler could do with some chance of success, but the chance of doing it as a relative novice with maybe 3-4 airplanes under his belt, and only one complex model, is darn near zero.

     The idea that you would take an airplane that is proven competitive, and hang it on the wall ~5 weeks before a critical contest is not good advice. I agree that it needs to be safe, but merely reinforcing the fuselage is sufficient to ensure that. If the fuse stays together, the chances of the wing coming out completely is essentially zero so it will be safe enough. The real goal is to make sure it both stays together AND is solid enough to be competitive at the TT. That will likely take more effort to achieve that, given the fact that the wing is double-covered but *only to the fuse sides*, which is a pretty serious, "almost-certain-to-be-fatal-eventually" problem.

     So I think it's going to be fixable and the airplane will be safe and competitive pretty soon.

     Brett

p.s - some of the advice in this thread is borderline insane - you can repair it in place just as well as you can by taking the fuselage off the airplane!!!!!

Insanity is on the brink of genus. And the reference to 1/16 is hard to explane. easier shown. Fix and fly and I wish you the best of luck! Matt I can say nothing that Brett won't disagree with.

This does not come from experince with crashes and then stomping on a plane ( I never have) The cutting off the fuse sounds like a good alternitive. You can follow advice from someone who builds one plane in 5 years or someone who builds five planes a year. I have never ! and I do mean NEVER had a wing fold (like many here).
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2011, 02:25:49 PM »

p.s - some of the advice in this thread is borderline insane - you can repair it in place just as well as you can by taking the fuselage off the airplane!!!!!

YES!
Fix it from the bottom and add a little weight.

Having not seen plans for this airplane have no clue how it is constructed or if the original design is adequate or if mods have compromised the design.........
No clue as to how deep the pipe tunnel is into structure. Assuming worst with spar cut.
Considering that this is best I can do.

Here is crappy drawing.....below

Carbon Fiber sheet would be lighter than the plywood.

If is 'I Beam' will have to cut through 'I beam' flange to attach repair to web of beam.

Super Glue wicks well if its good stuff. Slow Epoxy always best.

The addition of 1/4sq as someone suggested would be good. make the spar and L.E. repair 5ply tie into the 1/4sq.

Dap Light Weight Spackle is good enough for smoothing surface of repair. If careful will only need to fill/paint the 3/32 wide repair and existing cracks.

Drill pin holes into existing cracks and fill with thin super glue. Come in from sides of cracks at angles also.


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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2011, 03:33:24 PM »
Matt:

Just a note of encouragement.  While you may not have the same situation that led to the repair I describe here, please don't be afraid to cut into a good plane to repair it.  We repaired an Ultra Cobra that had a weak I-beam spar.  By its second flight it was trying to be an ornithopter in square manuevers, and without some kind of repair it would have ended up hanging on a wall somewhere.  As you can see in the picture, we cut the bottom of the wing open from tip to tip.  I cut a long piece of maple motor mount (splitting into 1/4 by 1/2) to beef up the spar between the landing gear and we inserted a new hard balsa spar the length of the wing.

The hardest part of the repair was making that first cut!

Good luck on your repair!

Scott

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2011, 03:45:47 PM »
I flew the plane once today in some turbulent air.  I flew about half the pattern and flew very big and very soft.  When I landed, I checked the cracks and none expanded but the sheeting got soft once again.  I know exactly how I'm going to fix it and will get started on it in the next couple days. I will take pictures of how I do the repair and post the pictures once I'm finished with it.

I'm going to cut the pipe tunnel open and make a half rib near the sheeting that is soft, (where I can press down on the wing so I can help beef it up) then line the sheeting with 1/64 ply again to help beef up the area. When I'm done with that, I'm going to make a stepped joint to put the pipe tunnel back in place (the section I cut out). Then I'm going to glass the entire pipe tunnel where the wing is showing and then put fillets on the wing fuselage joint. That's my plan.
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Online John Miller

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2011, 03:53:33 PM »
Wat ta go Matt. Your repair sounds like it will do the job. Hang in there, and be sure and post so we know how it's working for you. H^^
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2011, 04:08:44 PM »
Lot of work to only partly solve the problem.
Should last a little while. Hopefully at least moving the compression failure of the sheeting out a little.

Scott
With that spar construction it should rapidly fail. Its wood, not steel or aluminum!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 04:34:00 PM by W.D. Roland »
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2011, 07:07:54 PM »
Lot of work to only partly solve the problem.
Should last a little while. Hopefully at least moving the compression failure of the sheeting out a little.

Scott
With that spar construction it should rapidly fail. Its wood, not steel or aluminum!


How do you know it's a compression failure?

Paul W

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2011, 07:44:03 PM »
I flew the plane once today in some turbulent air.  I flew about half the pattern and flew very big and very soft.  When I landed, I checked the cracks and none expanded but the sheeting got soft once again.  I know exactly how I'm going to fix it and will get started on it in the next couple days. I will take pictures of how I do the repair and post the pictures once I'm finished with it.

I'm going to cut the pipe tunnel open and make a half rib near the sheeting that is soft, (where I can press down on the wing so I can help beef it up) then line the sheeting with 1/64 ply again to help beef up the area. When I'm done with that, I'm going to make a stepped joint to put the pipe tunnel back in place (the section I cut out). Then I'm going to glass the entire pipe tunnel where the wing is showing and then put fillets on the wing fuselage joint. That's my plan.

   Matt- when you add the 1/64 ply, make sure it spans the wing/fuselage joint, and goes well out into the wing (at least an inch or so) so that the strength is carried across the are where the high stress is concentrated on the wing sheeting. This will effectively obviate the problem created when you only covered up to the fuse.

    And alternative to the ply would be fiberglass or graphite cloth and epoxy. I think it will be easier to use the plywood since it's rigid and you have to be able to poke it up into the small hole. Don't scrimp on the glue and to the best you can to push the ply up against the sheeting across the full surface. You could do it in 1/4-1/2" strips so you don't end up having to curve it in two dimensions.

    I also think you should make rather large 1/32 or even 1/16 ply triplers that go from the LE of the wing to about halfway to the TE, in the inside of the fuse top and bottom. Sand/grind it down to bare wood, and solidly epoxy the triplers to the fuse sides, and then put it back together. That will pretty much guarantee that the fuselage will stay together regardless of what else happens. It might end up running better, too, and the weight gain, right on the CG, will be negligible.

    Brett

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2011, 07:46:30 PM »
Insanity is on the brink of genus. And the reference to 1/16 is hard to explane. easier shown. Fix and fly and I wish you the best of luck! Matt I can say nothing that Brett won't disagree with.

    Of course that's not true, we agree on most things.

Quote

This does not come from experince with crashes and then stomping on a plane ( I never have) The cutting off the fuse sounds like a good alternitive. You can follow advice from someone who builds one plane in 5 years or someone who builds five planes a year. I have never ! and I do mean NEVER had a wing fold (like many here).

    Well, if you only fly them 1/5 of a year, I am not surprised. Mine generally stay together.

     Brett

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2011, 08:15:14 PM »
I have read this thread with great interest.  

From what I can tell there are two things going on here.

1. The failure started in pull test.  But that doesnt mean it wouldnt have shown up later if there werent pull tests.
2. PW and TF are correct the lower part of the fuse sides failed because they are more or less part of the wing when improperly installed.  the model's top half of the fuse was taking all the pressure and twisting in flight and the lower fuse side that are now part of the wing are twisting away from the main fuse due to the cracks started during pull test loads.  It still would have eventually shown up as there was not proper support all the way around the wing.

Holding the plane in pull test by any other place than directly outside of the BC mount will transfer the pull test across the airframe from your hand's contact point to the BC post.  This is very bad!  If there is one area or spot between your place of contact and the BC post that is weak it will get damaged during the pull test.  And subsequent tests, like we have to do at contests, will beat it up further and further.  If you could actually somehow grab the BC post that would be the best way.  But we really cant do that so you have to do the next best thing.  Take a close look at Monty's pic.  His BC post is out of the wing and butted to the lower fuse side with plywood.  I do this same thing.  Mine sticks out of the wing top and and bottom 1/8".  Then 1/8" HARD plywood is used to butt it up the fuse sides TOP and BOTTOM.  Then I use 1/16" hard plywood to cap the TOP and BOTTOM.  Those caps also butt up against the fuse side TOP and BOTTOM.  Then when pull testing I place my fingers right outside of this point one hand on TOP and one hand on BOTTOM of the fuse.  The pressure from the pull is only transferred across that tiny section of fuse and right onto those post mounts.  The rest of the plane is sitting there nicely and is along for the ride at that point. I think if I did the one hand in front of the wing and one had at the flap I would snap my plane in half.  Holding the tip and pulling from the bottom of the fuse with body at the front of the fuse, I would surely crush the tip or crack the nose or something.  Pulling from the bottom places uneven pressure as well.  Pull from top and bottom.

When replacing the cutouts along the bottom of the fuse is so important to back fill them properly.  I cut mine out with a band saw equipped with a small blade.  But it still cuts wood away.  When I put them back in place after the wing is properly resting in the saddle I make sure they are aligned with a small gap at each of the four cuts.  Remember when you cut wood with a saw of any kind you cut away product.  Here is where I get kind of freakish about it.  Instead of just gluing the gap with epoxy and then overlaying plywood on the inside I actually take a piece of 1/64 plywood and slide it down the gap.  Thus filling the cutout gap with actual wood.  Sometimes I have to sand the 1/64 ply thinner to make it fit.  I sand it flush to the fuse side inside and out.  Then I take 1/32 ply and go across it as a tripler in the inside.  I do this at all four cut lines.  If you want to continue to use a fully removable bottom block you will need to cap the bottom of the fuse side as well with some balsa all the way down across these cutout areas to help tie it all together.  Then the removable bottom block can butt up to that.

The fix.  You are going to have to get back to wood along the inside of your pipe tunnel area.  You have to get back to wood for the repair as that is what is failing.  Repairing anywhere above that will not hold.  Once you are back down to wood and you have installed the half ribs you will need to then glue in triplers on the cut out joints, or better yet as BB said make a tripler that crosses the whole thing.  Since you have access you may as well go from F2 to a few inches behind the TE.  Your half rib idea is a good one. I would try to install several as far into the wing as I could reach.  Oh yeah, one more thing.  Dont forget to do this on the opposite side as well.  Once you make one area strong the pressure will go and seek out the next week area and beat the heck out of it flight after flight until it fails.

Other suggestions.  

1. Dont go to the TT without a back up plane.  If it is going to fail it will do it there.  In order to even have a chance at winning the contest firs you have to be able to finish the contest.  Ask me how I know that about that one...  I think your Oriental Plus is still working right?  

2. Please rethink how you hold the plane during pull tests.  This is so important and so easily overlooked.

I added pic of one of the aft seems of the cutout on my newest plane, that is the flap directly above it.  You can see the wood filling the gap.  You can also see where I used wood to fill in the butt joint where the bottom blocks come together. 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 10:46:21 PM by Doug Moon »
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Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2011, 08:28:21 PM »
Once again Doug is right on the money.

Make sure the gaps where you put the wing out are a butt tight fit, dont fill it. I make up templates 1st to get it perfect then transfer it to the fuse.

Hold the model along the fuse top and bottom and not the wing / fuse. Remember the bellcrank is whats being tested not the tips.

1. Dont go to the TT without a back up plane.  If it is going to fail it will do it there.

More specifically it will do it when your in contention, and after round 1 or 2, thats just laws of Stunt.


Models never fail in local practice, or when your not in contention - thats Rule 2 of the laws of stunt.
If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2011, 08:49:48 PM »
Holding the plane in pull test by any other place than directly outside of the BC mount will transfer the pull test across the airframe from your hand's contact point to the BC post.  This is very bad!  If there is one area or spot between your place of contact and the BC post that is weak it will get damaged during the pull test.  And subsequent tests, like we have to do at contests, will beat it up further and further.  If you could actually somehow grab the BC post that would be the best way.  But we really cant do that so you have to do the next best thing.  Take a close look at Monty's pic.  His BC post is out of the wing and butted to the lower fuse side with plywood.  I do this same thing.  Mine sticks out of the wing top and and bottom 1/8".  Then 1/8" HARD plywood is used to butt it up the fuse sides TOP and BOTTOM.  Then I use 1/16" hard plywood to cap the TOP and BOTTOM.  Those caps also butt up against the fuse side TOP and BOTTOM.  Then when pull testing I place my fingers right outside of this point one hand on TOP and one hand on BOTTOM of the fuse.  The pressure from the pull is only transferred across that tiny section of fuse and right onto those post mounts.  The rest of the plane is sitting there nicely and is along for the ride at that point. I think if I did the one hand in front of the wing and one had at the flap I would snap my plane in half.  Holding the tip and pulling from the bottom of the fuse with body at the front of the fuse, I would surely crush the tip or crack the nose or something.  Pulling from the bottom places uneven pressure as well.  Pull from top and bottom.


Yup!
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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2011, 09:00:28 PM »
Brett,

That is a good idea with the 1/64 ply to have enough of it go well out into the wing and as Doug said, I'll have to do it to both sides (I have to because the outboard wing started cracking too!). I will hopefully get started on this tomorrow and I should be able to test it out by the end of the week.

I should make a list of things I need to do so I will make sure not to forget anything since this is a real issue that may have become catastrophic if I never noticed it.
Matt Colan

Offline John Lindberg

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2011, 08:24:09 AM »
Not sure where the sheeting is soft, but I like to put a 1/2 -3/4 ounce cloth patch over the soft spot. Put on with CA, gets pretty hard. ~>

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2011, 03:46:40 PM »
I am not saying that my way is the only way. That is just how I do it. I try to avoid fuselage splices.  I also agree with Ted, that if you must cut the fuselage, you must have triplers in the area.
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #81 on: July 25, 2011, 07:27:10 PM »

How do you know it's a compression failure?

Paul W

Paul
With the little info and not familiar with the airplanes design and construction having to guess at a lot of this.
Throw in what I may have missed in some post.....

I think I read that the balsa in the cracks was getting soft.
If the Balsa sheet material is getting soft I wouldn't think that would be a tension failure but a grain length wise compression failure forcing the fibers apart and 'Fluffing' them up. Final failure would probably be in tension and that would be what gets blamed in the aftermath.

Like I said, not having airplane in hand to examine its all guesses.

A thought.
Seems we, or most, are looking for ultimate beam rigidity in the wing when is is not desirable or possible to make it
so ridged that it is 'immovable' 
Torsional rigidity so that Beam flex at L.E. Spar and T.E. are the same may be what is needed. Try calculating that in a wooden structure! n~

If an of that made sense then my key board is improving!  LL~

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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2011, 07:47:04 PM »
I opened up the pipe tunnel today, and discovered something really shocking!  Where the cracking was, there was a whole section of rib missing!  I have no idea where it went, and it's not in the wing because I can't hear any rattling when I tip the wing to either side.  So, I had to change my battle plan.

I made a spar that went from the nearest rib on the outboard side (that was splitting too!) and went all the way to the next two ribs over where the rib where the center sheeting ended.  I then made a half rib out of 1/4" and glued that onto the rib and the spar I made with epoxy.  I did the same thing on the other side because that rib was also cracked.  When I left my grandparents, the sheeting was ready to be put back, and when we do we will be putting new wood in, and then glassing the entire pipe tunnel and the fuselage sides.

I took pics, but it was with the camera at my grandparents.  I'll post the pictures tomorrow.
Matt Colan

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2011, 08:40:15 PM »
Unless your wing is infested with the rare Teleporting Balsa Worm*, that missing piece of rib is stuck in the wing where it won't rattle.

Good luck getting it back together.  Think about what may have made it break, and how to keep it from happening again.  Was it the front of the rib, the top, the bottom, some combination?  Did it break along the grain, crosswise, what?

* Or unless someone is making a girl stunt plane and needed a rib...
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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #84 on: July 25, 2011, 08:54:10 PM »
Unless your wing is infested with the rare Teleporting Balsa Worm*, that missing piece of rib is stuck in the wing where it won't rattle.

Good luck getting it back together.  Think about what may have made it break, and how to keep it from happening again.  Was it the front of the rib, the top, the bottom, some combination?  Did it break along the grain, crosswise, what?

* Or unless someone is making a girl stunt plane and needed a rib...

Well the only thing I can think of is that when I was at the NATS I had sticking controls (a couple guys witnessed it) and we thought the leadouts were rubbing against the balsa so we cut some of it away. Maybe we took out MUCH more than we thought we did. The only other hint I can think of is exactly what you said Tim, somebody was making a girl airplane 
Matt Colan

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #85 on: July 25, 2011, 09:59:53 PM »
Well the only thing I can think of is that when I was at the NATS I had sticking controls (a couple guys witnessed it) and we thought the leadouts were rubbing against the balsa so we cut some of it away. Maybe we took out MUCH more than we thought we did. The only other hint I can think of is exactly what you said Tim, somebody was making a girl airplane 
Or those sticking controls were because a piece of rib got where it shouldn't.
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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #86 on: July 25, 2011, 10:08:17 PM »
Actually it was because there was some type of material on the leadouts and it would rub against the eyelet and bind at the eyelet. We scraped it off and all was good
Matt Colan

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #87 on: July 26, 2011, 12:45:38 PM »
Hi Matt,

Good luck on the repair, it sounds like it should be the right way to go.

I would suggest the way Bob Hunt explains on mounting the bellcrank in future builds.  Several others have mentioned it, and it is the best way I have seen of doing it in my 50 years of building.  It adds strength to the center section spars, the bellcrank ain't ever gonna pull out with out destroying the wing, and is simple to do.  Just one more step added to the way you mounted yours here.  There are many ways to skin a cat, I have tried a lot of different ones, but this works first time, every time.

Your model should last for years and fly great, so best wishes!
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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #88 on: July 26, 2011, 03:27:18 PM »
I opened up the pipe tunnel today, and discovered something really shocking!  Where the cracking was, there was a whole section of rib missing!  I have no idea where it went, and it's not in the wing because I can't hear any rattling when I tip the wing to either side.  So, I had to change my battle plan.

I made a spar that went from the nearest rib on the outboard side (that was splitting too!) and went all the way to the next two ribs over where the rib where the center sheeting ended.  I then made a half rib out of 1/4" and glued that onto the rib and the spar I made with epoxy.  I did the same thing on the other side because that rib was also cracked.  When I left my grandparents, the sheeting was ready to be put back, and when we do we will be putting new wood in, and then glassing the entire pipe tunnel and the fuselage sides.

I took pics, but it was with the camera at my grandparents.  I'll post the pictures tomorrow.

I'd bet money it IS in the wing, wedged somewhere. If you're lucky it will stay there and never bother you. If you're like me, the piece will fall out during a maneuver and block the bellcrank..

And when you manage to get it back on the ground, it will unblock the bellcrank and disappear again.

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Offline John Lindberg

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #89 on: July 26, 2011, 03:39:21 PM »
I have the same problem with a Cavalier that has a cap-strip rib missing, not sure where it is, but I agree with Larry, it will probably show up at the wrong time and get caught in the bellcrank or elevator horn, and when it does, I'm pretty sure some wierd oscalations will occur! To top it off the wing is finished with a dyed dope finish, not too many easy ways to fix that. Maybe you should find that missing piece of rib, do you have a removable hatch for the elevator horn adjustment to view the inside of the plane?  HB~>

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Why is my wing cracking?
« Reply #90 on: July 26, 2011, 08:24:38 PM »
Here are pictures of the repair I made to the Trivial Pursuit.  There was a whole section of Rib missing on the inboard side, right where the sheeting was soft and where the cracking originated.  We put in a little rib of 1/4" to replace the section missing, and did the same on the outboard side.  There was also, as you can see in the pictures, a spar made all the way across to butt up against the rib at the end of the center planking.

I'm not sure if you can tell but there is also glass cloth and epoxy inside the pipe tunnel rather than just a strip like before.  I test flew the airplane tonight, and did one half hearted flight because the air was stone dead and almost lost the plane in my inside loops, so I had to walk the loops in order for me not to hit my own air.  The next flight I did only high G maneuvers like squares and triangles, and checked the wing to see i the cracks expanded.  They didn't and the sheeting was as tough as ever where there was the cracking.

Here's 5 pictures of the repair.  I have a picture on my iPod of what it looked like originally and I'm going to try and see if I can get the pictures off of it and post it on here.
Matt Colan

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