Why is it? Non-Stunt CL'er discourage newbies

[peabody]

I have always wondered why Scale, Racing, Combat and Speed events do all that is possible to discourage participation of newcomers....
All created "entry level" events..... .15 Carrier, Slow Combat, Fun Scale, etc, and all "crept" to levels that are all but impossible for a newcomer to be competitive in. Fun Scale at the Nats was won buy an Expert level flyer flying a past Scale champion plan.
Slow combat is flown by "fast" champions
15 Carrier is flown by the same guys that fly class I and II.....

Sucks

[Motorman]

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[BillLee]

Ah, yes! Peabody and Motorman!

The above posts ....

Does anybody now wonder why little credence is given to anything they have to say?

[Dane Martin]

No offense, but what you guys are describing is the exact reason I've stayed away from stunt contests. I started flying combat with all those "perpetual winners" you're talking about. They took me in, helped me, gave me planes and equipment so I could participate and even came to my wedding in august. They are now my extended family. Same thing with speed flyers. I was actually texting a speed flyer in Texas just this morning.
Now that I know some of the stunt guys personally, I feel the same acceptance and willingness to help. So all in all, I'd say I won't let those few bad apples ruin my apple cart.

[john e. holliday]

I too was asked not to post on some of those forums.  But in all my years of competing never seen a or had a problem with getting started in any of those events.   Now when I started winning it was a different story and it became me to give advice when needed.   A one individual I know in the stunt circles he doesn't give advice unless asked and then when the advice is ignored he doesn't answer any more. Remember one of the individuals here was going to create a turmoil for stunt at the NATS one year and hasn't been there since.

[bill bischoff]

Motorman is right. People shouldn't make disparaging remarks about others, so I'm sure he'll agree that it is totally wrong of him to say "I can say with all certainty that they absolutely do not care about new people coming into racing." From where I sit as a National level competitor, published author and designer, parts supplier, and president of NCLRA, such a statement is both false and deliberately inflammatory.

Bill Bischoff

[Balsa Butcher]

My experience in returning to racing was 180 degrees from the original poster's. I showed up at a SoCal racing meet with semi-competitive equipment, no pit man, and minimal experience as a race pilot. Was assigned a pitman, my planes were checked out and was given some pointers. After that, the race was on! (didn't finish last either!) These guys really care about their sport and welcome newbies of all skill levels.
In addition, competitive kits, plans, engines, and hardware (thank you Bill Bishoff) for the entry level events (Super Slow Rat and Sport Goodyear) are readily available and and the learning curve is not nearly as steep as it is for stunt. More people ought to give racing a try.

[phil c]

We haven't had any trouble scaring or shaming people away.  The problem is getting more spectators to get beyond the "wow" factor and think its something they could do.

Plus the fact that model flying, from rubber band free flights to quad copters take a lot of learning because there are so many not obvious reasons why a plane doesn't fly right, or why the pilot can't learn to fly it right.  Learning to fly means crashing, which people don't like so much.

[dave siegler]

it is interesting that you are lumping peoples behavior with the events thew choose to fly. 

There are nice guys and pompous asses  that fly every event, including stunt. 

I have seen  an expert stunt flier ridicule some new guy's equipment and he never came back. 

Expert level combat guys pit for a pilot that needed some real help,

There are nice guys that fly RC even.......
Even a few of the drone guys. 

Generalizations hurt everyone.  Stop it. 

[Fred Cronenwett]

The CD's need to have two Fun Scale Categories - Novice and Expert. that is what RC Scale does. But what I find interesting is that the big names in RC Scale are not entering the Sport Scale events (Sportsman and Expert Sport Scale). there were over 20 entries in Expert Fun Scale with Radio Control. CL has Fun, Sport and Authentic and when you spend that much money getting to the contest CL pilots tend to bring multiple models to make it worth the trip.

RC scale pilots tend to bring 1 airplane while CL scale pilots will bring 2 or more

In RC fun scale - they only have show a 3-view and everyone gets 5 points or zero so basically if you show up with anything that resembles a scale airplane and you show the right 3-view you get 5 points. the one score sheet I saw one year everyone had 5 static points. The paint job does not even have to match your documentation because you only have to show a 3-view, color photos showing the paint scheme is not required.  You could fly a P-47 that looks like Zebra and your static score would be same. There was one entry in RC fun scale which was not even a scale airplane so he got zero points for outline but still flew in the contest, it's basically a flying contest since everyone gets 5 static points if the airplane is scale.

At least in CL fun scale there is 10 points for outline and markings - and they actually judge the model, it's possible to get 5 out of 10 points in CL fun scale.

Fred

[Paul Smith]

You can't honestly compare RC & CL, even in the same event, like Fun Scale. 

In CL, decent flyers EXPECT to get 96 to 100 flying points all the time, so the 10 static points are vital.
Giving an AUTOMATIC  10 points for off-the-shelf gizmo options and stingy points for GENUINE flight maneuvers doesn't help either.

In RC, the whole flying points are in play and the 5 points just suggests a somewhat "scale-like" model.

The big problem in CL is experts insisting on invading EVERY sportsman or beginner class, just to get an easier win.  A prime example is Beginner Stunt at The Nats, routinely invaded by flyers who can, if fact, do the whole pattern, despite the Rule Book wording.

[mike londke]

You can't honestly compare RC & CL, even in the same event, like Fun Scale. 

In CL, decent flyers EXPECT to get 96 to 100 flying points all the time, so the 10 static points are vital.
Giving an AUTOMATIC  10 points for off-the-shelf gizmo options and stingy points for GENUINE flight maneuvers doesn't help either.

In RC, the whole flying points are in play and the 5 points just suggests a somewhat "scale-like" model.

The big problem in CL is experts insisting on invading EVERY sportsman or beginner class, just to get an easier win.  A prime example is Beginner Stunt at The Nats, routinely invaded by flyers who can, if fact, do the whole pattern, despite the Rule Book wording.

   I think your last sentence is way off Paul. It may have been that way in the past but I can tell you not one pilot I saw flying beginner at the 2017 Nats was close to being able to fly a full pattern. I watched every flight. (Sam was competing)  No one was sandbagging. They all belonged in that event, and the winners deserved their trophies. Like I said it may have been different in the past but 2017 was legit. As for the post that started this thread, it's utter bu//$hit. In any event I have decided to compete in, I have been given tons of help and encouragement, heck I've even been given equipment. Peabody must live in an area where every CL pilot is a complete douche. I'm glad to call the many people who have helped Samuel and I friends.

[Russell Shaffer]

At my very first stunt contest I signed up for beginner.  I was first up and standing there with a bewildered deer in the headlights expression.  I guy I didn't know asked if I needed a launch and some help so I said you bet.  It was David Fitzgerald and I got a fine launch.  In my area at least, everyone without exception has been friendly and helpful whether flying stunt, carrier or speed. 

[Fredvon4]

More babble for a outsider... sport flier by geographic and human frailty constraints

I have many hobbies and avocations...some leisure for me, and some deliberate learned skills to save money

Wood working for example... years ago a remodel of a bathroom...she wanted a custom sink cabinet...sticker shock

I decided to acquire the good tools over time, and did... EVERY craftsman I have had contact with....100% .....has deliberately sought to help ME succeed...OK.... a non competitor skill set

Dad did very good foundation schooling for his eldest son, and I was a natural at using tools, reading instructions, and figuring how things worked...necessary skill to be able to fix or make stuff

I can say, in every thing I play with, were the guys and gals who freely helped, gave advice, taught new ideas...

BUT also were the die hard butt heads who were clannish and secretive and went out of their way to hold me away and out of their world

If you think there are prima-donnas in some aero modeling  you should experience some of the behaviors in HAM radio
Or many motor sports...like adult CART racing

So far I am lucky..CL stunt and combat aero modeling is full of guys who help and give freely

From what small exchanges I have with the like of Brett Buck, Ted Fancher, Paul Gibeault, and Doug Galbreath...( and a lot more it would take a full page to name) there are indeed Stunt, speed, racing, and FF guys who want me to have fun and succeed

MY early experience, when I retired and joined a RC club.. was a disaster...  I persevered for a bit and was an officer...but those old self centered butt heads ran off more potential new members for no good reasons... to the point I had to move on... My moral code is to help and teach people to have fun and succeed

I personally think

The best way to advance ANY of Control Line events...and gain participation, is to have MORE folks and clubs step up and create the venue, tangible prizes, and rational rules..specifically limiting an experts potential to keep a prize form a true beginner

Due to ever decreasing entries, the Fast Combat Bladder grabber  is on it last legs...in the 80's had $10,000 in prizes and a very large entry levels thanks to sponsor Bob Carver... Ron Colombo spent a lot to travel, fly and win, for a meager $400+/- engine, tee shirt, and coffee cup

Back when I was a poor kid...even a very distant 4 or 5th place could get me a new kit or engine or fuel or all three...locally

Walker Cup for the top dog is a different game ...ego, brag, peer standing, best of the best....no real need for a $1000 gift card to Amazon

If you want to envision what control line events could be==== once again... learn up on the Drone racing League...televised...big prizes...all top 50 competitors BUILD and create their OWN drones....NO ARFS in the hunt...LOTs of sponsors

Many RC competition are with MFG sponsored teams... Maybe naive and I an not looking...but I have never seen a MFG sponsored team or individual at a CL event

All we really lack... ignoring the brain dead AMA... are clubs with the energy to do the HARD work...and sponsors who can afford the risk

I highly suggest we actively support Dane Martins new Las Vegas Winter Stunt event effort

So what not:?
Team SIG
Team Lee macheine
Tram Randy Smith (PA Aero)
Team RSM
Team Hunt
Team Brodak
Team Fred


BTW there are a LOT of clubs that do simple kid teaching , building, and contests... IMO in our current hand off rearing or children.. I think ...even if it is JUST "let the model plane club entertain my kid for 4 hours"... ( i have been involved with many of these)..
No we did not gain members...BUT I know, we taught valuable skills.. worked in harmony, shared, explored many what if moments, and expanded the child's mind...even if just a little

Combating today's de-evolution of acceptable social behavior is a hard job... there are too may much easier distractions....social media, games, TV, ....today's world is actually frightening for a teen age kid... when I was 12 I had no clue what a pedophile was or anal sex, or gay issues....let alone terrorists or home invaders...I had no idea a a kid that food could kill me... some drugs could kill me... an erection for 4 hours was bad and I need a doc asap... and the best anti pee my pants solution was a adult diaper