Why did master class in Pampa stunt not work out ?

[Reuben MacBride]

As we know there are a lot of very top notch stunt flyers around the country ,I won't mention their name as I know I will not mention them all but here in the west coast these pilots exceed the pack in Expert stunt. When they show up at a local contest they are gonna be winners almost every time. So to make it so the others have a chance at winning in Expert you would think that a master class would be a choice the modeler can choose and fly against the best of the best.  Top Gun  This giving the second teir of Expert flyers a chance at winning also. I was told it did not work when it was tried but I would like to do it in November at the Las Vegas Stunt Challenge. Hoping to get the west coast top flyers to come to the event and as usual try to beat there peers in their Master Class. More awards no problem, More winners go home happy. AS who belongs in that class are those who want to fly against the best thinking they can go neck in neck with them.  Just a thought to promote more entries.

[Ken Culbertson]

As we know there are a lot of very top notch stunt flyers around the country ,I won't mention their name as I know I will not mention them all but here in the west coast these pilots exceed the pack in Expert stunt. When they show up at a local contest they are gonna be winners almost every time. So to make it so the others have a chance at winning in Expert you would think that a master class would be a choice the modeler can choose and fly against the best of the best.  Top Gun  This giving the second teir of Expert flyers a chance at winning also. I was told it did not work when it was tried but I would like to do it in November at the Las Vegas Stunt Challenge. Hoping to get the west coast top flyers to come to the event and as usual try to beat there peers in their Master Class. More awards no problem, More winners go home happy. AS who belongs in that class are those who want to fly against the best thinking they can go neck in neck with them.  Just a thought to promote more entries.

This may work in your area but it would be pointless here (here is Dallas).  How would you define "Master"?  Unless you did it based on accomplishments you would just be creating another Expert class and if you based it on accomplishments you would probably exclude some very good fliers that just can't make it to the Big Show.

This is a problem that does not have a "one size fits all" solution.  If it works in your area that would be great.  Anything that gets more fliers out is a good thing.  I hope that the class choice is voluntary.  I would be very disappointed if I went to a contest and could not fly against the best.

Good luck - Hope it works - Ken

[Brett Buck]

A simple answer is that there has never been a "Masters" PAMPA class. The word was first used for Peabody's version, which was a long time ago, and had absurd entry criteria, which, when first proposed, 5 people in the country would have qualified for, and excluded such notables a Bob Geiseke. I had recently looked into a voluntary Masters class, not because we really need a new class, but to cover up for the fact that we are letting people re-sort themselves into classes (which is normally not permitted). It appears to going nowhere, not many people aside from me even sees the problem, which I have described in extensive detail in the past.

   So such a class never failed, because it never existed.

     Brett

[Crist Rigotti]

The FCM contest in August has a Masters class.

[Scott Richlen]

This is a great idea!  Now when Tim and Steve (no last names needed, you know who you are) show up at our local contest I can move them into Masters Class so I can win Expert!  The problem is that Gerry (again, you know who you are) has been improving and beat me this last fall.  I guess he should move into Masters Class too!  Doggone it - I demand more cheap plastic trophies for my mantel!!   

[Fred Cronenwett]

It also might be that come CD's including myself do no consider it when getting a contest sanction together. PAMPA would need to advertise and educate the clubs hosting contests to consider having a Master Class at the contest. I would bet that some CD's don't understand or know that it exists and just default to the traditional Expert, Advanced, Intermediate and Beginner PAMPA classes.

[Dan McEntee]

  Well, as Brett mentioned, there never was a Master Class, except for at the FCM contest, as was also mentioned. What one needs to do is to simply work a bit harder to get to those levels of proficiency that are thought to be unattainable!. Time has a way of equalizing things, and the pilots in question that you feel are at that level, won't be able to hold that level forever, so it's time to just bear down and work on  the pattern! It all depends on just how bad you want it, and the answer lies at the bottom of a jug of fuel or at the low voltage cutoff of a bunch of batteries!
   HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
  Dan McEntee

[Trostle]

As has been suggested in the previous posts on this thread, the problem with establishing a "Masters Class" is defining who qualifies for it or what is the criteria to move into a so called "Masters Class".  Sure, we can look at the Nats and Team Trials record for the last 5 years (10 years?) and come up with some names that would be an obvious list, but that does not solve the question for the local competitions where there are no "major Nats contenders" but a few good pilots dominate the local scene.

One idea was tried for a local contest where there were several really good pilots, including Nats finalists and Nats winners.  A separate class was set up, where individuals were allowed to volunteer to fly in the Maters class.  They flew in the normal  rotation as the Expert pilots, their scores were kept separate from the Expert pilots, and would receive certificates instead of trophies.  Sounded like a practical approach.  The problem was when one barely qualified expert pilot saw only 2 Master entries (who were previous Nats Champions), he decided to fly in the Expert class and was able to get a 3rd place Masters certificate.  Sure, his score was not compared to the Expert pilots for placement of the Expert pilots, but what he did diluted the idea of a Masters class.

At first, it sounds simple to establish some criteria for being in a so called Masters Class.  But, how well that criteria works when moving from local contests to regional contests needs to be considered?  Things to ponder.

Keith

[Reuben MacBride]

Thanks for the response to my Question. I am not suggesting that the CD request who would have to be put into the class of masters. Those who sign up at the local event can see who is there and choose to fly against their peers who they really only want to challenge.  Does that make sense. I know we don't need more trophies and it  is not about winning ,but a way not to discourage those who come to a contest knowing from the start that the top guns are there and I don't want to fly against them .  Other than just having one enjoyable weekend it amounts to just fun. Maybe I am wrong and everyone should just fly in one class so that's why I am asking for suggestions and I thank you for the kind input.

[Bob Whitely]

As Keith said it was tried some time ago, didn't work then and won't work now. There are too many people it seems that want something for
nothing as being called an Expert and can barely make it thru a decent advanced pattern.

More appropriately when you enter a contest it absolutely is all about WINNING! Why do you think it is called a competition?

So the idea that just because little Johnny enters a contest he should some kind of an award? That is total BS!!!   

RJ

[Randy Powell]

If i'm going to get beat, I'd rather get beat by the best. 

[Scott Richlen]

If i'm going to get beat, I'd rather get beat by the best.

Well, me too.  But then Tim, Gerry, and Stephen went and beat me!   

[Ken Culbertson]

 

If i'm going to get beat, I'd rather get beat by the best. 

[Larry Fernandez]

[quote author=Bob Whitely link
There are too many people it seems that want something for
nothing as being called an Expert and can barely make it thru a decent advanced pattern.
RJ
[/quote]

Ha! Looks like Mr. Whitley is on to me.😎

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[RandySmith]

As we know there are a lot of very top notch stunt flyers around the country ,I won't mention their name as I know I will not mention them all but here in the west coast these pilots exceed the pack in Expert stunt. When they show up at a local contest they are gonna be winners almost every time. So to make it so the others have a chance at winning in Expert you would think that a master class would be a choice the modeler can choose and fly against the best of the best.  Top Gun  This giving the second teir of Expert flyers a chance at winning also. I was told it did not work when it was tried but I would like to do it in November at the Las Vegas Stunt Challenge. Hoping to get the west coast top flyers to come to the event and as usual try to beat there peers in their Master Class. More awards no problem, More winners go home happy. AS who belongs in that class are those who want to fly against the best thinking they can go neck in neck with them.  Just a thought to promote more entries.

Hi

We have a master class  its  called  OPEN at the  NATs, there really is no need  for any Master Class because in most all other contest , have been run in PAMPA classes ,   EXPERT  is the Master Class,  PAMPA  has  4 classes  Beginner  intermediate  Advanced and Expert  these  are  ALL  that are needed and cover the entire spectrum of levels of flight proficiency .  So  any other  class is  not needed

Randy

[Reuben MacBride]

all reply's made me convinced that we do not need to run that Master Class. Thank you for taking the  time to explain the issues .
I promise a great event at Las Vegas in 2020. hard work goes into a contest and I am all 100% behind the Pampa events.
Thank you

[Phil Spillman]

Hay Reubin, Don't knuckle so fast! Those who have poo pooed your question and suggestion fail to recognize the impact of having to suffer the effects of having to compete against the very talented group at the top of our sport. Yes I know full well that to Improve after having left the Advanced Division to Win Place or Show is a giant leap, it may well become the last straw leading to the loss of some competitors. The consenseus  appears to be let them  go! I don't agree with that elitist attitude!

The establishment of a Master's Class is one which should be thoroughly vetted! I have heard some of my friends say " Well Last place is already taken now that I'am here"! is not the attitude which anyone should be content with! Rather the impetus should be "I am going to practice with more critical focus to improve my skills"! This latter dimension is hard to accomplish! I for one have felt this pressure and have tried to improve my patterns! However aside for tis forum where are we lesser lights to turn for constructive coaching? That's what we need but aren't getting!

As an 81 year-old still with the fire in my belly to compete I do realize the effect the passage of time has had on my visual and physical acuity! So I have tried to sharpen my own critical eye to make my Patterns better! Do I need a Master's Class to allow me to bring home more hard-ware? Probably not! But I do recoil at not receiving the scores which I think I should receive which I do produce a respectable pattern presentation!

So the answer to this question deserves more consideration than "We talked about this once before and decided to drop the whole thing!" 

Phil Spillman

[Dan McEntee]

Hay Reubin, Don't knuckle so fast! Those who have poo pooed your question and suggestion fail to recognize the impact of having to suffer the effects of having to compete against the very talented group at the top of our sport. Yes I know full well that to Improve after having left the Advanced Division to Win Place or Show is a giant leap, it may well become the last straw leading to the loss of some competitors. The consenseus  appears to be let them  go! I don't agree with that elitist attitude!

The establishment of a Master's Class is one which should be thoroughly vetted! I have heard some of my friends say " Well Last place is already taken now that I'am here"! is not the attitude which anyone should be content with! Rather the impetus should be "I am going to practice with more critical focus to improve my skills"! This latter dimension is hard to accomplish! I for one have felt this pressure and have tried to improve my patterns! However aside for tis forum where are we lesser lights to turn for constructive coaching? That's what we need but aren't getting!

As an 81 year-old still with the fire in my belly to compete I do realize the effect the passage of time has had on my visual and physical acuity! So I have tried to sharpen my own critical eye to make my Patterns better! Do I need a Master's Class to allow me to bring home more hard-ware? Probably not! But I do recoil at not receiving the scores which I think I should receive which I do produce a respectable pattern presentation!

So the answer to this question deserves more consideration than "We talked about this once before and decided to drop the whole thing!" 

Phil Spillman

        How is having a Masters Class going to help you by getting you a coach and improve your scores? Most likely, the Masters class flyers will fly in front of the same judges you do, so if you are not flying at their level, that should and will be reflected in your score. Not having them there should not improve your score for the same level of pattern you present. I don't see how that will provide you with a good coach either. The level of judges that are available is another factor. You have to use what you can get and hope that they are consistent and fair to everyone they see. That tends to mean that for a Masters Class you will need NATS quality judges and there aren't enough of those to go around. You have to stress the point to your judges that you are judging the pattern as it is presented, not the person flying it. And the basic fact of life is that there are some who will NEVER fly a pattern as good as Paul Walker, or Dan Banjock, or me , or you or Joe Belllcrank down the street, but you have to judge and score them according to the rule book. The judges are not there to make anyone feel good or better about themselves. That is up to the individual to set his own personal goals of achievement and do the work necessary to achieve it.. That means he may get to be the local hot shoe and finishes well in the region that he/she tends to fly in, but is no indication how he would stack up against someone from across the country at the Nationals. For anyone that makes the effort to show up at a contest and then proudly declares that he has last place all sewn up, then he is there under false pretenses. Self depreciating humor is OK, but when he signals for his pit man to release his model, he should be trying his absolute best at that point in time. Who knows, maybe the other guys will have a bad day, get blown out of a maneuver or two, have some mechanical or electrical issues that affects their performance, and that opens an opportunity for you to move up in the standings. That is what competition is all about and why you are there. That better finish that you may achieve is something to build on and should help your confidence level, and maybe the next contest, with a few more practice sessions in between, you may move up some more yet. That is how the "Masters" got to where they are today, not by having things arranged so they could look better and incorrectly perceive that they flew better.
   HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
  Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

You know the one thing that is missing in this discussion is how do the "Masters" feel about having a Masters class.                                                 
If they want it we should consider it but to me it is a totally bad idea if all it does is separate us from them so we can win more.
I respect those who don't compete locally to give others a chance to win but I think we are divided on that one and they are probably disappointing an equal number who really wanted to fly against them in front of the same judges.

Ken

[Dave_Trible]

I ‘came up’ well before skill classes and always flew with the best fliers from a beginner.  Personally I wouldn’t want it any other way.  Having said that,  these days with our rapidly dwindling numbers to create yet another division seems pointless.  In most local contests the turnouts are too small and even at the Nats we now worry about meeting the threshold for the Top Twenty.  If a Masters is done then I’d suggest it be just a local matter for about the only place who can draw enough entries.

Dave

[Dan McEntee]

I ‘came up’ well before skill classes and always flew with the best fliers from a beginner.  Personally I wouldn’t want it any other way.  Having said that,  these days with our rapidly dwindling numbers to create yet another division seems pointless.  In most local contests the turnouts are too small and even at the Nats we now worry about meeting the threshold for the Top Twenty.  If a Masters is done then I’d suggest it be just a local matter for about the only place who can draw enough entries.

Dave

    That is really it in a nutshell and a point I wanted to make and forgot. There are but a few places in the country these days where there are enough entries in each skill class where someone might finish out of the top three. If the guys that feel that they are the "bottom feeders" of their class now, they should have been around back in the days before skill classes, or even twenty years ago even with skill classes. Imagine showing up at the SIG contest, or Brodaks and find out that there are 25 or 30 entries in , say Intermediate or Advanced and you just moved up into one of those classes!! I flew in the Expert class at the Paducah contest last year, 2018, and there were no beginners, only a  couple Intermediates and Advanced had 5 or 6 entries. Over the years, several guys moved up into Expert and they had 16 or 18 entries! No appearance points, and in that part of the country they would draw some pretty heavy hitters, so the competition was tough. I had a bunch of stuff to deliver to Wes Eakin, so only had room for an OTS model and my well worn Sakitumi that I flew in Profile and Expert. The judges were NATS quality, Charlie Reeves and maybe Jim Lynch or some one else of that caliber.  I was able to really bear down, focus and flew as good as I ever have I think, and scored 563 for my best flight. That is my personal best for a regional contest. I really felt pretty good about that, getting a good score like that from a couple of guys that I think the world of and respect. My finish result was 13th place!! But I was only about 12 or 13 points off the podium. I was pretty happy with those results, given the level of talent that was there that weekend. And like Dave just mentioned, I wouldn't want to have it any other way.

   As far as asking the "Masters" quality pilots, I think you would find that they know who is their main competition, and that is how they look at their results of the day, how they did against those guys. They couldn't probably care less about taking home another trophy, and you also have to remember one thing, they were ALL the bottom feeders at one time or another, put in the hard work, practiced , and paid their dues. I don't believe anyone set things up for them to have a better finish by moving the top guys aside.I would guess that they wouldn't want to have had it any other way.
  Type at you later and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
  Dan McEntee

[Steven Mac Bride]

OK Lets not read to far into this please. I understand this to be a question asked for simple thoughts and replies.
This subject was brought up for a very good reason as I will explain.
As i love to fly and compete I have seen at local contests the entries tend to become less.
This thought was to try to help increase entries and not discourage anyone.
The  Las Vegas Circle Burners holds a great contest in November that keeps getting better and better each year,
As we have plans to improve it more in 2020 and are working on it right now.
So our intentions are to try and get the top 20, top 10, and top 5 top gun flyers to attend our contest as you know who you are.
The flying site we have is amazing and the 5 star hotel we have reserved rooms for is totally remarkable for the price.
You could not ask for anything better with evening entertainment fun for all family and friends.
So as you read this mark your calendar to come to Las Vegas  November 6th 7th and 8th 2020.
And please help pass the work around.
Thank you Steven Mac Bride
President of the Las Vegas Circle Burners and CD of the Las Vegas Stunt  Challenge.

[Ken Culbertson]

OK Lets not read to far into this please. I understand this to be a question asked for simple thoughts and replies.
This subject was brought up for a very good reason as I will explain.
As i love to fly and compete I have seen at local contests the entries tend to become less.
This thought was to try to help increase entries and not discourage anyone.
The  Las Vegas Circle Burners holds a great contest in November that keeps getting better and better each year,
As we have plans to improve it more in 2020 and are working on it right now.
So our intentions are to try and get the top 20, top 10, and top 5 top gun flyers to attend our contest as you know who you are.
The flying site we have is amazing and the 5 star hotel we have reserved rooms for is totally remarkable for the price.
You could not ask for anything better with evening entertainment fun for all family and friends.
So as you read this mark your calendar to come to Las Vegas  November 6th 7th and 8th 2020.
And please help pass the work around.
Thank you Steven Mac Bride
President of the Las Vegas Circle Burners and CD of the Las Vegas Stunt  Challenge.

This makes sense.  As a formal class, not so much but to try and start a "Top Gun" event separate from the Nats is a great idea, especially in November when most are hibernating in their shops wishing it wasn't winter.  I have been an advocate for an "Old Farts" event but when you look at it most of the "old Farts" still flying sort of fit your idea.  As long as the qualifying is not too strong or too weak it might just work.

Ken

[Trostle]

(Clip)

So our intentions are to try and get the top 20, top 10, and top 5 top gun flyers to attend our contest as you know who you are.

Thank you Steven Mac Bride
President of the Las Vegas Circle Burners and CD of the Las Vegas Stunt  Challenge.

I think for a "regional" contest, which some might consider your contest is growing to be recognized as such, there is an approach to consider.    This would not require any PAMPA or AMA "certification".  Go ahead and announce that a "Masters Class" category will be held.  People who "qualify" to fly in the Masters Class are from those "top 20, top 10, and top 5 top gun flyers".  As you suggested, "you know who you are".  To be more specific, you could say that anyone who as won the Nats (possibly no time limit) and or placed in the top five at the Nats (again, possibly no time limit) or even placed in the top 20 (again, possibly no time limit).  Certificates (nice ones) for their placing will be awarded.  None of these people certainly do not need more trophies.  Establishing a set criteria for who qualifies for the Masters Class is important to eliminate a pilot with "mediocre" capabilities jumping the line to sign up in the Masters Class with the off beat chance of getting a "Masters Certificate".  Depending on the expected response to have a Masters Class, the Master class entries could be flown in the same rotation as the other Expert entrants.  The Master Class scores and placings would be held separate from the other Expert pilots.   Or, if the numbers start to support holding separate rounds just for the Masters Class, maybe with different judges, then let the process evolve to something like that.  There are several ways this could evolve with your contest. 

The important thing is to establish the criteria for who can claim/enter to be in the Masters Class.

I am sure there are many workable variations on this theme.  I think this is one way to encourage those "top gun flyers" to attend your contest while not discouraging the "less proficient" pilots from attending.

By no means do I intend to diminish the good words from Randy Smith earlier in this thread where he succinctly explains that there already is a Masters Class and that is the Open Class competition each year at the Nats.  The problem remains, however, is to encourage participation at local/regional contests that may be attended by a few or not so few "top gun flyers" which may discourage some to attend though many pilots still will fly just to see how they compare to these "top gun flyers".

Points to ponder.

Keith

[Brett Buck]

The important thing is to establish the criteria for who can claim/enter to be in the Masters Class.

    Maybe - but even more fundamental is "what problem am I trying to solve?" with a Masters class. A lot of the previous attempts have started with the idea of a  "Masters" class, and then coming up with a reason you need it afterwards.

     I think you will find it *very difficult* to come up with a definitive rule that solve any issue with competitiveness , because as soon as you start trying to apply a rigid rule,  someone will wind up in Expert that *still* will dominate the competition - and, be pissed off because they were excluded.

   As always, the solution to skill class placement is to form a blue-ribbon/graybeard committee to just decree it, but no one is running to volunteer for that one, and it leaves it wide open to accusations of bias.

     Brett

 

[Brett Buck]

Hi

We have a master class  its  called  OPEN at the  NATs, there really is no need  for any Master Class because in most all other contest , have been run in PAMPA classes ,   EXPERT  is the Master Class,  PAMPA  has  4 classes  Beginner  intermediate  Advanced and Expert  these  are  ALL  that are needed and cover the entire spectrum of levels of flight proficiency .  So  any other  class is  not needed

Randy

    I generally agree, but, realistically, we only really have two competitive classes now - ADV and EXP. Beginner is almost always a "one-and-done" and Intermediate only lasts for a few contests. It's already heavily skewed towards Expert and I can see Advanced effectively going away in the near future.

   Of course, just running every contest as JSO would also "solve" this problem, but then you have a severe logistical problem, how to you get through 2 rounds in a day? That's usually 60-80 flights, how do you manage that many flights in a one-day contest? Who is going to judge it? How encouraged is some Intermediate flier going to be finishing 38th place?

     Brett

[Steven Mac Bride]

I respect and appreciate everyone with your thoughts and replies. They all make sense with valid points.
As it has been mentioned in other posts to moving up in class is voluntary.
We have a very big heart for this hobby and competition.
It is depressing to hear and see at local contests this comment. (The hobby is DYING).
I believe this is not true as first being a East Coast competitor and now a West Coast competitor.
I have met many great flyers from all around including those who visit to compete from outside the states.
The hobby is very much strongly alive, it is just getting more entries to local contests as not just the Nats.
Understanding that every pilot can be beat regardless of their class as for example Classic stunt is all classes combined and any pilot can have their greatest day winning the event. That does not qualify them to a master class pilot,
As for the same in PAMPA having your days be your best ever and you qualify one or two times in the top 20 top 10 or top 5 may also not qualify you as a master class.
Just for thought though if you are one who qualifies year after year for 5 or more years you just might be one of those who could qualify.
Then again how can we get you all to attend more local contests.
As for the Las Vegas Stunt Challenge space for circles to run such an event is not a problem as we have all the necessary room needed. Although help for judges would be needed and appreciated by those mostly in expert class to judge a a master class.
And WOW up to or more than 38 entries. That would be GREAT!!!

Thank you Steven

[Howard Rush]

I think for a "regional" contest, which some might consider your contest is growing to be recognized as such, there is an approach to consider.    This would not require any PAMPA or AMA "certification".  Go ahead and announce that a "Masters Class" category will be held.  People who "qualify" to fly in the Masters Class are from those "top 20, top 10, and top 5 top gun flyers".  As you suggested, "you know who you are".  To be more specific, you could say that anyone who as won the Nats (possibly no time limit) and or placed in the top five at the Nats (again, possibly no time limit) or even placed in the top 20 (again, possibly no time limit).  Certificates (nice ones) for their placing will be awarded.  None of these people certainly do not need more trophies.  Establishing a set criteria for who qualifies for the Masters Class is important to eliminate a pilot with "mediocre" capabilities jumping the line to sign up in the Masters Class with the off beat chance of getting a "Masters Certificate".  Depending on the expected response to have a Masters Class, the Master class entries could be flown in the same rotation as the other Expert entrants.  The Master Class scores and placings would be held separate from the other Expert pilots.   Or, if the numbers start to support holding separate rounds just for the Masters Class, maybe with different judges, then let the process evolve to something like that.  There are several ways this could evolve with your contest. 

The important thing is to establish the criteria for who can claim/enter to be in the Masters Class.

I am sure there are many workable variations on this theme.  I think this is one way to encourage those "top gun flyers" to attend your contest while not discouraging the "less proficient" pilots from attending.

By no means do I intend to diminish the good words from Randy Smith earlier in this thread where he succinctly explains that there already is a Masters Class and that is the Open Class competition each year at the Nats.  The problem remains, however, is to encourage participation at local/regional contests that may be attended by a few or not so few "top gun flyers" which may discourage some to attend though many pilots still will fly just to see how they compare to these "top gun flyers".

Points to ponder.

Keith

The FCM has had a Masters class for many years. Transition between Expert and Masters at the FCM is different from the usual skill class transition. As I understand, moving up between the standard classes is voluntary (augmented by social pressure), but there is a diode that prevents folks from moving down. The FCM has an entry criterion for Masters—Nats top 20, I think.  There is no problem with an FCM Master moving to Expert at other contests, because Expert is the highest available class at other contests. I presume that nobody eligible for FCM Masters would choose to fly Expert at the FCM.

FCM’s use of Nats performance as a criterion makes sense because the FCM and Nats are held at the same place.  Still, using previous Nats winner as a Las Vegas Masters criterion would get you the usual suspects. You might use Nats Open finalist as a criterion. That way you’d include Chris Cox, who’s been beating the Nats winners, and the odd guy who occasionally picks off a Varsity member at the back of the pack.

[Will Hinton]

At the FCM, a flyer who wins expert is also moved up the next year.  Truth be told, I personaly think we're going to need a change in a few more years because we're eventually going to run out of experts if the lower classes don't continue to improve and move up.  Our masters class is always growing and is well attended now.  The meets are really well flown and a true pleasure to judge!  These guys are ruthless and a ton of fun to watch!  We had the exciting privilege of having Paul Walker attend this year to add one more masters dude.  We have a ton of fun at each contest and the comraderie is fabulous.  (If I remember right, we also had Howard one year.  Right, Howard?)

[Chris McMillin]

I think that the top three, or 5 maybe depending on number of  entries, get moved to a sudden death flyoff. A single flight after the last round is tallied. These contenders prepare for the single flight after the Expert class is run by monitoring their scores near the top. Then when all Expert flights are done, these 3 or whatever fly a single flight to determine these Masters and their final placing. Their names are moved from Expert to Masters and the remaining Expert field are reordered, if 3 flyers moved to Masters then 4th, 5th and 6th are now 1, 2, 3.

This way it isn't permanent and always fluid, based on performance. To make it fun, use the Expert flyers as judges for the fly off.

This could help regional contests with say... 18 Experts and accommodate contests where there are low entries in all classes and it doesn’t matter by having it as a condition of entries on the contest flyer.
Chris...

[Steven Mac Bride]

Thank You Chris for your response and input suggestion.
I like that idea also and could see that as a choice that could be tried and work.
I will put more thought into it and hope to get more post responses.
As we have a whole year to prepare till this November 6th 7th and 8th.
We are working on this years event getting an early start.
Hope to see you out here in Las Vegas,

Steven

[Ken Culbertson]

I think that the top three, or 5 maybe depending on number of  entries, get moved to a sudden death flyoff.

I really like this.  It adds an element of suspense and gives the top "X" number of fliers one more shot at the #1 spot and having the other Expert fliers do the judging is a great idea.  By not setting up a pre-qualifying I think it might bring out some really good fliers that simply can't do the Nats for all of the reasons we have beat to death in other threads.

Ken

[Jim Carter]

In my heart, I know I have no business commenting on this but to me, as in martial arts, a true Master is fully able to adapt and modify the moves to accommodate the situation.  It seems silly that the Advanced, Experts and "Masters" would all be flying the exact same maneuvers.  It seems to me that a true expert should be able to do the exact same maneuvers as the Advanced but with greater precision and accuracy.  However, a "Master" should be able to execute those exact maneuvers with the greatest precision and accuracy regardless of the order in which they are required or the number of repetitions of any particular maneuver.  It seems to me that the order of the Master Class maneuvers should be scrambled (not in the same order as the Advanced and Expert) but posted / advertised for any event for the competitors to review and then execute.

For example in any given event, say the NATS, Reverse Wing Over, 3 laps, 3 Outsides Loops, then 3 Inverted Laps into a reverse Hourglass etcetera, etcetera.  Then at the King Orange it may and should be somewhat different in order i.e. Reverse Wing Over, 6 Laps, Reverse Wing Over, 3 laps, Overhead Eight, 3 laps, 3 Inside Loops, 3 Outside Loops etcetera, etcetera.  I hope this makes sense.  A true "Master" should be able to do, with awe inspiring skill, that which his students continually strive for.  Personally, I'm hoping to master bringing my plane home in one piece, repeatedly!! 

Jim Carter

[Shorts,David]

I love coming up with great ideas for someone else to try. Logically you could just give trophies down to fifth place and therefore include a few "ordinary" experts. But here's a terrifically worse idea. Put everyone together on one or two circles. Fly before each set of judges, whether that be one or two. Subtract your average score from 600 to establish your handicap. Fly your last flight with handicap and anything goes.  Hey, I might even beat Paul Walker.

[Scott Richlen]

I agree with Jim Carter - the Masters Class participants should be able to do any maneuver in any order.  Or even new maneuvers!

I propose adding the barrel roll to the Master Class maneuvers.  It can go right before the Lomcovák.

[Tim Stagg]

Scott I never knew you had such a complex about me.... I can remember last year you beat me badly....

You almost made me blush 

[Howard Rush]

A single flight after the last round is tallied.

So you would throw out the results of the better-of-two-flights contest to pick the winners from a one-flight contest?  No thanks.

[Paul Smith]

I could see a setup with FOUR full pattern AMA Rule Book Stunt events and a separate "beginner" event with less than full pattern.

This would effectively create a "master" class and remove the incentive for pattern-able pilots to take "beginner" prizes all their lives.

[Shorts,David]

It's good to throw mud on the wall and see what sticks. On the other hand, I'd fly if there were only one class, like VSC, or WAM. I mean, when people golf it isn't because they're going to beat Tiger Woods, or whomever, it's so they can beat their buddy, whatever class they may be.

[Chris McMillin]

So you would throw out the results of the better-of-two-flights contest to pick the winners from a one-flight contest?  No thanks.

I forgot to write the top three put up a thousand each and winner take all.
Chris...

[Reuben MacBride]

Here is what I like the most from the imput that I read so far. No master class is needed. All experts fly their two flights and the top 3 get to fly one more flight to win the top gun place. I know that the top 3 are out to be the best and it's not about the awards. So three added awards go to the Vegas top gun flyers 1st ,2nd  & 3rd. The 4th place winner in expert is now a 1st place winner in Expert and so on till 3rd place. This means anyone can be in the top 3 at a local contest and it will add a fly off to see who is the best. This also makes room for 3 places in the Expert class. I think this would add to more entries give the best flyers a flyoff to be the best of the best that day.

[Howard Rush]

So everybody is competing together, you give trophies to the 4th, 5th, and 6th guys labeled 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, and then you take the top three guys, already ranked by a two-round contest and rerank them by a one-round contest.  Indeed the top three guys don't care much about another plastic trophy, but they do care which of them flies best.   Wouldn't it be better to keep the results of the two-round contest, give postcards or something labeled 1, 2, and 3 to the guys who placed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, then give nice trophies labeled 4, 5, and 6 to the guys who placed 4th, 5th, and 6th?   

[Frank Imbriaco]

  New and changing sequences for the top tier flyers  with  each maneuver scored according to an assigned  K-Factor. 

[Scott Richlen]

Scott I never knew you had such a complex about me.... I can remember last year you beat me badly....

You almost made me blush 

Was that at Brodaks?  That was because I was flying my SL-3. 

The rest of the year I flew my Legacy or Neptune and then everybody beats me. 

I'll reveal my winning technique: when flying the four leaf clover I close my eyes at the entry and then don't open them again until the exit.  Sometimes it ends up being a five-leaf clover and the judges give me extra points (at least Peabody does.)  I highly recommend it!  You should try it at the next contest!   

[Ken Culbertson]

Here is what I like the most from the imput that I read so far. No master class is needed. All experts fly their two flights and the top 3 get to fly one more flight to win the top gun place. I know that the top 3 are out to be the best and it's not about the awards. So three added awards go to the Vegas top gun flyers 1st ,2nd  & 3rd. The 4th place winner in expert is now a 1st place winner in Expert and so on till 3rd place. This means anyone can be in the top 3 at a local contest and it will add a fly off to see who is the best. This also makes room for 3 places in the Expert class. I think this would add to more entries give the best flyers a flyoff to be the best of the best that day.

I really like this or some form of it.  Doubt I will ever get to fly in one but having it there is an incentive to me and I think it may be to others.  Having CD'd a lot of contests "back in the day" that had a lot of the "Top Guns" of that era I see one downside.  If PA is flown on Sunday then you have to deal with the "Get the Hell out of Dodge" syndrome. 

Good luck with finding the right formula - Ken 

[Dave_Trible]

So everybody is competing together, you give trophies to the 4th, 5th, and 6th guys labeled 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, and then you take the top three guys, already ranked by a two-round contest and rerank them by a one-round contest.  Indeed the top three guys don't care much about another plastic trophy, but they do care which of them flies best.   Wouldn't it be better to keep the results of the two-round contest, give postcards or something labeled 1, 2, and 3 to the guys who placed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, then give nice trophies labeled 4, 5, and 6 to the guys who placed 4th, 5th, and 6th?

There’s the ticket.  Why would you negate or reshuffle the contest results and really just create a second contest?  If the finish order is different the second time who was the winner that day?

[Paul Smith]

It's good to throw mud on the wall and see what sticks. On the other hand, I'd fly if there were only one class, like VSC, or WAM. I mean, when people golf it isn't because they're going to beat Tiger Woods, or whomever, it's so they can beat their buddy, whatever class they may be.

In the golf leagues that I played in we had THREE flights, based of past scores and evenly divided.  Nobody, not event the A Flight winner was a PGA champion, but it did set up interesting matches every week. 

An sport that has handicaps and/or ability groups is giving prizes to contestants who are less than the best.   The FAI World Championship is the only event that really proves anything.

[Ken Culbertson]

There’s the ticket.  Why would you negate or reshuffle the contest results and really just create a second contest?  If the finish order is different the second time who was the winner that day?

Other than being on different days and called by different names, why is this any different from the Nats format?  Your scores are erased after each round.  You could win every round up to finals day and not even place in the top three.  Properly planned and organized at the field this would add no more than 1 hour to a contest day.  Maybe it could be done similar to the Walker.  Leave the places alone just have a perpetual "Top Gun Trophy" flown without appearance points.  IMHO this is not a "give out more goodies" thing, it is a "bring out more fliers and have more fun" effort.  Granted you could do that without flying but then you are just giving out more goodies"

Ken









               

[Dave_Trible]

That’s a different matter.  There you are taking a large group spread out into four groups flying before different judges.  There we are whittling down to get one small group in front of one set of judges on one day and set of circumstances.  It’s not a perfect system but works pretty well.  The time may come as our numbers dwindle the system could be adjusted down but we are hoping not too soon.  It’s not supposed to be about starting a new contest each day but it does in some ways for the guys still flying.

Dave

[Howard Rush]

Yep.  Then the Nats finals are the best two of three flights, each flown before six judges.