Who's afraid of an ARF?

[Bill Mohrbacher]

I'm not a CL competitor, but I've flown a lot of CL and other types of models.  In my early years I built all my stuff and was quite proud of my skills.  Now in my twilight years I've gotten back into flying, but RC so far.  I keep promising Phil Spillman I'll get my Shark (MacFarland) and Continental (DeBolt)recovered and get up to his field, but haven't done it yet.

I've using my building time on old free flight designs, converted to electric motors and RC.  I've been flying large ARF RCs (using Foxes of course).

Now my point is, I've seen a lot of ARFS, RC and CL.  If I was competing where appearance points were awarded, I sure would not even begin to worry about any ARF I've ever seen.  If I were concerned, I would need to go home and REALLY brush up on my building and covering skills.

Most RC ARFS I've seen and most CL ARFs I've read about aren't really ready for competition as sold.  It will still take a good builder and pilot to make one ready.

Now if Sparky, Al Rabe, Bill Werwage, Pat Rowan, or .... was selling models, that would be a different story.

Somebody in another post talked about deep pockets and maybe that is where the problem would come up.

Until then, who's afraid of an ARF??

[Garf]

This is an interesting point. It would take a lot of work to bring any ARF up to top competition level. Some ARF's are better than the average builder can make, but are a long way from top level competition level. I'd like to see what an ARF would do in the hands of a Walker Cup winner.

[Richard Grogan]

I agree with the above. Until the ARF manufacturers stop using crappy iron-on finishes and start doing high quality silkspan/dope-or-automotive paint finishes, I dont see the problem. (nothing against iron-on coverings, just not my preference..)

More than likely though, someone in here will find a problem anyway!

[Will Hinton]

For the record - I am a devoted scratch builder.  But....(You knew there would be a "but" didn't you?)    I have an ARF Tutor that I bought to do the early spring "I don't wanna get serious yet" flying.  It is a blast and provides a wonderfully relaxing spontaneous trip to the flying field.  HOWEVER -although the ARF was very well aligned as is, there was no way I was going to waste my 80 bucks flying it with the controls like they were!
I've heard the same thing about other ARF's as well.  The thing had an aluminum bellcrank with the leadouts simply run through the holes of the arms and crimped with tubing to keep in place.     Those of you with the old "Wow, that leadout sawed through my bellcrank" experience already know where I'm going with this!
Since I was going to change that anyway in the interest of a longer lasting model I made up a 4" 'crank and installed it along with ball links and carbon fiber rods.  The ship flies quite nicely, and as I said before, is a whole lot of fun.
No, I don't think anyone needs to be afraid of ARF's, just aware of the possible pitfalls with them unless a bit of modification is done.  For a new modeler, it would be best if they seek the help of an experienced flyer/builder.
Blessings,
Will 

[Bradley Walker]

Most RC ARFS I've seen and most CL ARFs I've read about aren't really ready for competition as sold.  It will still take a good builder and pilot to make one ready.

CL ARF's are in their infancy.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=6842.0

[don Burke]

I'm not afraid of ARFs.  You just have to be aware of what you are getting.  You get what you pay for.  Either in money or time spent.

I think ARFs, and even better ARCs, have their uses and are definitely a good place to start to get flying, or to have something with which to practice without worrying about a crash.  A famous racer once said, "The only way to go fast was to drive it like you didn't have a penny invested in it!"

[Bill Little]

This is an interesting point. It would take a lot of work to bring any ARF up to top competition level. Some ARF's are better than the average builder can make, but are a long way from top level competition level. I'd like to see what an ARF would do in the hands of a Walker Cup winner.

It would win if it is in the proper class.  ie: an ARF Nobler would win a Classic event if any of the current Walker Trophy (or even Walker Cup which deals with the World Championships) pilots were flying it with a good engine on board.

[dennis lipsett]

Ok a little info on ARFs.
 I probably have more experience with them seeing as I have been exposed to them in the RC field since 1964 when Len Perdy started Lanier.
Everyone assumes that C/L arf's will get better, don't count on it. To prove my point a little story. No names are changed to protect the innocent.
I gave a friend of mine a Horizon hobbies Cub,80 inch W/S for 50/70 four stroke. He built it and flew it 4 times and then got cought in a cross wind take off and the nose hit. The firewall came out immediately. I wasn't there when it happened but here's the sequence. He looked at the back of the firewall and saw that there was no glue on the back of the firewall anywhere. Got it home and knew that fuel had creeped behind the firewall and doused the backside of the firewall. the firewall was comprised of 2 pieces of approximately 1/8 ply. Hw was going to replace the whole thing when he had an idea. He figured that with the amount of glue that they used on the firewall they couldn't have used too much to glue the firewall together. Took a chisel and gave it a tap with his plam and split the 2 pieces cleanly. Grabbed the 2 pieces of triangular stock that were used to back the firewall and they popped out of the fuselage.The origional building  also required some re-engineering to get the thing safe enough to satisfy him. Mind you this is an 80 inch W/S 11 lb aircraft that costs $175.00 or thereabouts. The darn thing probably held together because of the locking construction that was used. Scarey to think what would have happened if the firewall came loose while you were in front. Horizon did have that problem with their Corsair with large gass motors being used.
Most arfs that are sold in the RC community aren't any better but they cost more and last less then the C/L varients.
Not to blame the manufacturers in China or Taiwan or anywhere else. These things are being made to spec and price. So if you want better, then you as a consuming public have to demand it by using the power of your pocketbook. But just remember if you win then you can't complain that you can't get a bargain model anymore.
Moral if there is any is cavat emptor.

[Bradley Walker]

Let me get this straight, ARF's will not improve because of this one?

Ever heard of Hangar 9?  If these guys make a CL ARF, watch out.

















Or Fliton?







It seems people associate the word ARF with "cheap junk".  Stop looking for junk, and you will see what is really happening in the market, which is amazing.

[frank carlisle]

The problem with ARFs as I see it is that they will eventually become the norm and the art of building a model plane will become lost.

[dennis lipsett]

Frank,
It has been that way for quite awhile. The last few times i went to the R/C field to fly I had the only kit built plane there. R/C has been completely taken over by ARF's. I know a few people that were in the kitting business and just gave up because they simply can't compete with the foreign market.
You know that it's alost cause when you show up with your latest creation and someone says that really neat is is a new arf and where can I buy one..
Dennis

Edit, Response to Bradley walker. Of course you know that horizon owns the hanger 9 label. They are made the same way as the cub.

[Shultzie]

The problem with ARFs as I see it is that they will eventually become the norm and the art of building a model plane will become lost.

Frank, My OOOOOOOOOOOH MY!
As long as we have you and others around to build all those beautiful models for us....Why sweat the stinky stuff?

[EF]

I could be wrong but the picture I'm getting in my corner of the world is that ARF fliers don't stay much in the hobby, RC or CL, yet those who really "catch the model flying bug" very quickly look for kits and plans. Seems the ARF crowd goes through them quickly, soon finds it boring, sees everyone else flying the same thing, and moves on to other things.
Some friends I taught to fly on ARFs are now scratchbuilding scale models, after having built 2-3 kits.

Myself, I always have one ARF for "fun and practice", no problem with that, but always one. Recently got tired of the big P-51, so swapped it for an unassembled ARF P-40.
The rest of my models are either scratchbuilt, or from kits (Sig "real wood kits").

I'm not worried, I think ARFs offer a good introduction, and then a good filter to sort out the real modelers from the "just fliers".
I read a lot about people anticipating that kits will dissappear but don't believe it, just look how many laser cutters there are for those wanting their own kit to build, and you'll see what I mean.

[Bill Little]

Hi Erez,

I think that at least a lot of what you are saying is true.  Personally, I agree that I believe only a handful of people will stick to ARFs for an extended period of time.  Lots of people come and go in model airplanes.  Those that build tend to stay around it seems.  Been out of touch with the R/C crowd as a whole, but I have had several guys tell me there is a good bit of turnover in their clubs.

[Randy Powell]

Bill,

That's certainly true in my area. I belong to the local RC club. I have a little hot rod I built that I occasionally go to fly at the RC field. I joined mostly to sit in the meetings and advocate for a CL circle (Real Soon Now). When I go to the field, The first thing I hear is, where did I buy the plane. I explain that it's a one of a kind. I built it without plans, just TLAR'ed the thing and they are suddenly somewhere else. There are maybe 15 or 20 regular members that have been around for a long time. They tend to fly both ARFs and their own stuff. Even the ARFs are seldom stock. Then there is maybe another 40 guys (or I should say positions) that are continually rotating. Always new faces. They buy an ARF trainer, learn to fly, get some expensive ARF pattern or 3D model. Doodle with that for a bit, lose interest and move on. Sometimes they quit after breaking their toy since they don't know how to fix it and don't appear to accept help.

The club holds building sessions to train new pilots how to build but the only ones that show up are just the base 15 or 20 guys and a few kids. It's something, I guess.

They don't have contests per se the my local RC field anymore. They have Fun Fly "events". Pretty regularly. A group of 15 or so folks quit the club recently when it was decided to discontinue having contests. The contests stopped because a couple of the members (new guys) complained that contests weren't fair. Those guys that win all the time have a lot of experience and it isn't fair to the newcomers. So much for a learning curve, I guess.

[Keith Spriggs]

Bill,

Those guys that win all the time have a lot of experience and it isn't fair to the newcomers. So much for a learning curve, I guess.

Hey! That sounds a lot like real life.

[Phil Coopy]

As long as they still allow me to build my own, I don't mind the ARF guys flying with me....C/L or RC.

Phil

[Bradley Walker]

As long as they still allow me to build my own, I don't mind the ARF guys flying with me....C/L or RC.

Phil

Now, there is an interesting take.  No one is making a rule that says you *can't* build.  HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!  I wonder why all the *builders* are so upset?

[John Rakes]

Like Don Burke said in an earlier reply "you get what you pay for" is a true statement. This is true with no matter
what top name rc or cl arf you buy. You would have to be a fool not to shy from the instructions or hardware
provided from where ever it comes from. The big rc 90/120 size even bigger require strengthening and mods to make it a solid ship. You take a Funtana with a 90 size 4 stroke in it, you better do some extra strengthening to the fuse, mainly from the wing forward, and be prepared to toss hardware, like plastic clevices being replaced with metal ones. Triangle stock is used to outline areas to be strengthened.
Adding 10 to 15 bucks in mods to an arf is not a whole lot to ask for.
The top names in control line or ones who fly at the NATS mod from instructions or mod from experience with scratch planes, why bash if an arc needs the same?

[Bob Zambelli]

Phil said:
"This is an interesting point. It would take a lot of work to bring any ARF up to top competition level. Some ARF's are better than the average builder can make, but are a long way from top level competition level. I'd like to see what an ARF would do in the hands of a Walker Cup winner."

Phil - as I have been told by a few people, the Yatsenko (sp?) ARF, although very expensive, is a WORLD CLASS design. Supposedly comes with everything but fuel and glow battery. 

I have not flown or even seen one but can anyone who has comment on these planes? 

Are they really that good or is it hype? 

Bob Z.

[peabody]

Regardless of the "interpretation", the Yatsenko planes won both Advanced and Open at the US Nationals in 2007...

[Bob Zambelli]

Rich - are they truly ARFs??

Bob Z.

[RandySmith]

Regardless of the "interpretation", the Yatsenko planes won both Advanced and Open at the US Nationals in 2007...

To Start with the Yatsenko planes  didn;t  win anything, the 2 pilots that flew them won, and they would have won flying any number of planes, and in fact they have won using other planes, Orestes won the national Advanced Championship using a Brodak kit.

And NO these are not what I would consider an ARF, the  are for the most part,truly  ready to fly custom built stunt ships

Regards
Randy

[john e. holliday]

It would be interesting to see some newcomer take a "Yatsenko Shark" and assemble it.  I would bet it would not even come close to the versions that Orestes flew to first place.  As I understand it, the ones ready to go are assembled in special jigs which the jigs were not available to Orestes.  DOC Holliday

[Andrew Borgogna]

Randy
I am confused by your statement refering to the Yatsenkos flown at the Nats this year. "And NO these are not what I would consider an ARF, the  are for the most part,truly  ready to fly custom built stunt ships"  I thought that to fly at the Nats you had to build your own model, am I wrong?  I thought that was what was at the root of this discussion.
Andy

[Bob Zambelli]

I'm still not getting an answer that makes sense. 

It was stated: "And NO these are not what I would consider an ARF, they  are for the most part, truly  ready to fly custom built stunt ships"

OK, are they truly Ready To Fly? 

Ready to fly means take it out of the box, hook up the lines, fuel it and fly it - ZERO ASSEMBLY.

ALMOST ready to fly means that some assembly is required - glue in the wing or some such.

Custom built stunt ship or not, no matter what the cost, it's either an ARF or it's not.

I was told that the plane comes with engine, tank, lines, etc. But, if assembly is required it's still an ARF.

Let's hear from someone who has built one. Now I'm just plain curious!!!!

Bob Z.

[RandySmith]

Randy
I am confused by your statement refering to the Yatsenkos flown at the Nats this year. "And NO these are not what I would consider an ARF, the  are for the most part,truly  ready to fly custom built stunt ships"  I thought that to fly at the Nats you had to build your own model, am I wrong?  I thought that was what was at the root of this discussion.
Andy

HI Andy

I didn't say Orestes  broke the BOM rule.
I was commenting on the Shark in general, The reason I said """for the most part"" is the vast majority of the ones out there are Ready to Fly custom made stuntships. Orestes did persude Yatsenko to sell him a number of custom made "kits"  that he put together. These from what I understand will no longer be availible to anyone. The ones that the vast majority of people have (not Orestes) are a Ready to fly airplane, and now is the only way you can buy them. So in my mind they are NOT arfs.
These come in a custom carry box and the planes assemble and break back down for transport. You do not glue them together.

Regards
Randy

[Bob Zambelli]

OK, Randy - THANKS. That clarifies things.   

I had no idea how it was packed, shipped or configured.

I and possibly many others had no idea that it is actually take-apart.

Makes a lot of sense now.

              Bob Z.

[RandySmith]

OK, Randy - THANKS. That clarifies things.   

I had no idea how it was packed, shipped or configured.

I and possibly many others had no idea that it is actually take-apart.

Makes a lot of sense now.

              Bob Z.

HI Bob

These planes  are  engineered to bolt together and break back down so that you can carry them in a small case or ship them as luggage on airlines, They take just a few minutes  to assemble  when you get to the  field

Regards
Randy

[Alan Hahn]

So basically the answer is that a $$ RTF in the hands of a great pilot can win the NATS if he was allowed to fly it in the first place. I assume the kits that the Miami guys built are no better or worse than the Yatsenko RTF you can buy if you have a few thousand $ laying around the basement. Of course the fame and fortune awaiting a NATS winner will allow pay back "toute suite".

And by the way, all this argument about how short term the arf flyers are. Quite frankly, there were a lot of kit builders who dropped out of the hobby too after the first plane. I don't think this argument is either here nor there. Sort of like the argument about the old COX plastic planes (actually the same argument now that I think about it). Yes a lot if not most people dropped out. However most of us in that generation probably had at least one of those Coxes. Yea they flew like crap, but if you could get the engine to reliably run (mainly the glow plug battery had to be fresh), that was the challenge! And we are (or at least I am) still here.

[Eric Viglione]

Hey, I've picked up more than a couple of retreads to my club whose ONLY childhood experience with  C/L was a Cox RTF that they could barely get the .049 started and do 1 or 2 level laps with, BUT even that little flight left a lasting impression. Enough so that they came back to the hobby as adults and are modelers now that can build and fly.

Child hood memories are VERY strong and lasting. All you guys who give a kid a flight and never see them again, don't worry, some will come back, even if it takes 30 years! You gotta plant that seed and let it germinate. Some longer than others...

Re: ARF/BOM thing: I'm not afraid of them. I build, (and have an ARF Nobler and some unbuilt on the shelf
for kicks) and I welcome them and those that fly them. It sure beats flying alone!

EricV

[peabody]

Bingo Eric! (RE:FLYING ALONE)

COX sold big numbers of ARF or RTF stuff until the wheels came off the operation...

The Fire Baby, whic some say is what started it all, was an ARF....

[Ron King]

The Fire Baby, whic some say is what started it all, was an ARF....

Rich,

Thanks for the memories. The Fire Baby was my first plane. The Cox .020 Little Stinker was my second - and my world has never been the same since.... 

Like many, I prefer to build my own. But I have an ARF Nobler in the basement and my Cardinal profiles are ARC. Pandora's Box has been opened and it cannot be closed.

Ron

[Steve Fitton]

ARFs have no peer when it comes to "suicide missions", ie, conditions so poor its insane to put up the good plane you spent months building.  Recent cases in point, among many, would be KOI the year before this one, when winds were gusting to 30 on Saturday, or Spring 07 Huntersville, with the tropical storm blowing through on Sunday, or even last Sunday, when Spillman, Willis and I were putting up flights in air (actual measured conditions from the base weather station), of 16 kts gusting to 26 kts.  Usually, you survive without the ARF getting dinged, and you learn alot about how to survive in heavy wind that you can put in your back pocket to pull out on Top 20 day, etc...


Steve

[Louis Rankin]

Speaking of ARFs and KOI.  There was some guy from Tennessee who won the "High Points Trophy" and 1st Place in Advanced at the 2007 KOI using a Top Flite Tutor II.  That same guy has won 1st Place in Advanced at the last two contests (with tough competition mind you) he has attended flying a Brodak Oriental ARC.  There is also a guy from Georgia that flies a Red ARC Nobler (Recovered ARF = ARC) that he often wins 1st or 2nd place with in Classic events all over the southeast.  Built straight and in capable hands, I would say: Be afraid, be very afraid of ARFs and ARCs.

[Bob Reeves]

Another one to be afraid of would be a TF Score with a Saito 56 (my airplane) flown by Joe Gilbert