Which plane for an O&R .60 ignition?

[frank mccune]

    Hello:

    I got my O&R .60 sideport out today and deceided to get it running.  It is new so I am starting from the beginning with the ignition engine powered plane for Old Time Stunt. This engine has never been run and I have never run an ignition model airplane engine! LOL
 
   What kit would one reccommend for this engine? Nothing too difficult to build but will do the OTS pattern.

   Any thoughts?

                                                                                                                       Stay well,

                                                                                                                       Frank

[Andrew Tinsley]

My immediate reply would be don't use an O&R 60 side port. they are great in Free flight models but not really powerful enough for a stunt plane. there are far better choices of engine out there. Why hobble yourself with a weak engine? If you insist on using it, then something smaller than you would first think of and you will have to build VERY light!
You will probably get people disagreeing with this take. But listen to people that actually fly vintage stunt, the people that take it half seriously will be flying far more powerful ignition 60s

Regards,

Andrew.

[De Hill]

I was the event director for ignition stunt at VSC for about 15 years. In that time, I never saw an O&R .60 Sideport complete the pattern in ignition stunt.  I did see a  front rotor O&R .60 compete, and one year it won ignition stunt.

De Hill

[Brett Buck]

I was the event director for ignition stunt at VSC for about 15 years. In that time, I never saw an O&R .60 Sideport complete the pattern in ignition stunt. 

   Where does the tank need to go to get it to run the same upright and inverted?

     Brett

[De Hill]

   Where does the tank need to go to get it to run the same upright and inverted?

     Brett

As I said Brett, I never saw one complete the OTS pattern. You might be able to mount an O&R  inboard on a profile (like an Easy) and get it to work.

 Jim Walker made some small tanks that fastened onto the sideport of O&R engines that would swivel around when the airplane did loops and eights. It would not be big enough to do the OTS pattern.

[Garf]

I have been looking at using the O&R 60 front rotor on a NoblARF. I think it should have enough power for something that light.

[De Hill]

I have been looking at using the O&R 60 front rotor on a NoblARF. I think it should have enough power for something that light.

Garf,

The magic word there is Front Rotor. You might have to lengthen the landing gear to allow for a larger propeller.

 A sideport would not be too good of an idea. However, if someone wants to try it, go ahead!

De Hill

[Mike Keville]

As De pointed out, the O&R sideport works will in SAM Antique Free Flight...not so well in CL.  As for the front rotor .60, I recall seeing a couple of those hauling a Super Duper Zilch rather well back in the early '50s.  One guy flew repeated wingovers, seeing if he could tear the wings off.  (He failed to do so.)

[FLOYD CARTER]

Having several O&R 60 sideport engines, I can't agree that it would be unacceptable for C/L stunt.  The secret is, of course, size the plane to suit the engine.  Although a 60, you cannot drop it into a 60-airplane.  A stunter of about 40 oz. and probably 52" wingspan should work.  Just don't plan on competing with such a combination.

I have run the O&R 23 sideport with a wedge stunt tank with good results.  It is probably necessary to cut the fuel pickup tube short to get the tank closer to the venturi.

I can't recommend running this engine on glo, but a light spark ignition system is possible these days.

Floyd

[Brett Buck]

I have run the O&R 23 sideport with a wedge stunt tank with good results.  It is probably necessary to cut the fuel pickup tube short to get the tank closer to the venturi.

   Did it run the same inverted and upright, and if so, where was the tank?

    Brett

[Jim Kraft]

I have a small port side port Ohlsson 60 that will turn a 13-4 APC at 9300 rpm, so I think the power is there. It would just be getting the tank position right. I fly mine on a Playboy Sr. with an 80" wingspan on R/C and it takes it up in a hurry. The thing that hurts the Ohlssons in my opinion is that the faster you run them the higher the vibration with that steel piston. They also have very thin cases that are easy to break. They do however start easy and run well, and also seem to last a long time. I have flown hundreds of flights with sparkers on C/L planes but have never tried a sideport on any of them. Having said that, I am not so sure they could not be made to work with some fiddling with tank elevation. I just have to many better sparkers to fly.
         The Super Zilch and I believe the Viking both show sideports on the plans. They do show the intake slightly above the tank, and run through the firewall in order to keep the engine closer to it. It looks like a small regular wedge tank behind the firewall would be good and also a flexable tube run from the intake tube to the outside of the fuse so one could choke the engine properly. These things don't take much fuel if running gasoline, so that may also help to make it all work better.
             So you see I have thought about it some even though I have not tried it.

[Andrew Tinsley]

OK, I didn't say it could not be done. Just that it really isn't up to any sort of competition standards. They also vary quite a bit in performance. I have flown a front rotor 60 and that was just about acceptable. I found that this particular 60 wore out at an alarming rate. It was shot at the end of the season. My best advice is use it for an old timer free flight design. There are cheap 60s out there. For some reason hardly anyone in the US has a good word for the OK Super 60. I have four of them and they are first rate, plenty powerful for a decent full size stunt model and they are ridiculously cheap when I got mine a year or two back.
Brett, why the questions about tanks? No one in their right mind would use the original tank. Any engine with a rear tank, just substitute a wedge tank, same as all the kids did back in my younger days!

Andrew.

[Brett Buck]

Brett, why the questions about tanks? No one in their right mind would use the original tank. Any engine with a rear tank, just substitute a wedge tank, same as all the kids did back in my younger days!

   Thanks, I am not entirely in my right mind but I think the question is quite obvious. Of course you aren't going to use the stock tank.

    I can't see where you would put the tank to get it to run the same upright and inverted, since the venturi and intake is about an inch and a half from the mounting beam.

    I would heed De's observation, unless you like a challenge. There's nothing like real life to show how well the theories work.


    Brett

[Jim Kraft]

I have to admit my Ohlsson was sent to George Tallent in AZ a few years ago for him to replace the case gasket, and he balanced the crank and increased the compression slightly along with putting in a new dog bone rod. He said it was the best running small port 60 he had seen in his shop.

The plans for the Super Zilch show the pickup tube on the tank about an 5/8" below the center of the intake tube. That might be the center of pumping action for the engine. Rusty Brown and I talked about this one time and he thought that is where it would work. Also, all the old time planes that showed the Ohlsson's they were always mounted way lower in the fuse than other engines, and the mounts are above the crank center on the engine also. So you would have room to move that small tank around some to make it work I would think.

As far as old sparkers for contol line go, you can't beat the Anderson Spitfires, Atwood Super Champions, and Orwicks. I have hundreds of flights on Andersons with seemingly no wear, both on gasoline and alcohol fuel. I have to tame down my Andersons when flying my 68" 850 sq. inch Taurus that weighs 62 ounces as it pulls it extremely well in a 2-4 break or a flat out 2. The only problem with them is their weight at about 12 ounces.

[De Hill]

The two Ohlsson sideport .60's that I saw fly at long ago VSC's flew exactly the same way. They would take off, start growing richer and richer, and land with the engine still running. Then they would lean out again, take off, go rich and land again, etc, etc. 


One was mounted upright in a OTS Dreamer. (made by Eagle) The other was mounted in a Ringmaster with the batteries buried in the fuselage back by the elevator in order to get the correct C.G.

In both cases, the engines ran the same.

[Jim Kraft]

Hey De;
              That sounds like my front rotor Ohlsson 60. I had it on my Super Zilch for a while and it did not run that bad but it sure lost power when I went inverted. I took out the stamped metal insert in the venture and made an aluminum insert that was around .250". That helped but I never got it to run like the other sparkers I have. I know guys ran them back in the day but they must have known something that we don't. Of course early on there was not much stunting done and if you could do a loop you were king. I have relegated my Ohlssons to FF planes with radio. They run fine on those. The Super Cyclones run good but the rods and front bearings don't last to long. Otherwise they put out good power, and run steady with a few tricks. I learned about blocking the subinduction holes on all engines that have them for a much steadier run from the guys at VSC. The holes work fine on FF models.

[Garf]

What I have is a few Madewell .49's. I have one complete ignition model, One ignition model built up from parts, and a pile of parts. The one built up from parts does not draw fuel well using a Fox large NVA.

[FLOYD CARTER]

De Hill reports erratic runs from the O&R 60.  Much of this problem is in the stock needle valve assembly.  The threads are too coarse, and the needle doesn't have a gradual taper.  Just a fraction of a turn is the difference between too rich and too lean.  My success depended on replacing the stock needle with a better one.  I don't remember which I used, but it came from a modern glo engine.

The tank I used on an O&R 23 sideport is long gone, but I remember how I made it.  Center of the tank was about 1/2" below the venturi tube.  To get the tank close to the engine, I soldered a brass tube through the tank center to accomodate the venturi tube.  Front of the tank was right up against the new needle valve.  I couldn't choke the engine because the venturi tube was somewhere in the middle of the tank.  A prime in the exhaust worked well.

Floyd

[EddyR]

 I remember guys putting these in models that looked like a Super Ringmaster.  But that was five years before the Super Ringmaster.
Ed

[Clancy Arnold]

One of my funniest memories was of an O&R 60 Side Port engine in a Veco Chief.
They had converted it to Glo!  We flew at the ball diamond at the city park with the pilot standing near the pitchers mound we took off towards first base.

Then these two older guys (Early twentys) bring out this Veco Chief and stated it up.  When the pitman released it, it taxied to third base.
End of true story.
Clancy

[Jim Kraft]

There were people that could make them work. Bob Palmer flew a Go-Devil with an Ohlsson 23 in competition after he had his accident, and said it worked fine as long as the wind was not blowing to hard. Don Still learned to fly with an Ohlsson 60 sideport on a Fireball, and used the same engine on later planes. I remember at Swope Park in KC after the war in the 40's the Ohlsson sideports were very popular for flying the stunts of the day. So it may take some fiddling, but it surely can be done. Probably not highly competitive, but fun never the less.

[john e. holliday]

Some where I still have my Brothers old O&R .60 side port.  It is the one we fired up in the basement of the first house when Mother and I moved back to KC.  He couldn't remember what happened to the ignition parts, it was on glow.

[Avaiojet]

Well Frank,

This model won't stunt with your OS, but sure would look great. Period engine and a period model.

OS and the Tiger Shark.

PM me if interested.

Charles

[Bill Morell]

Well Frank,

This model won't stunt with your OS, but sure would look great. Period engine and a period model.

OS and the Tiger Shark.

PM me if interested.

Charles

Charles, you need to re-read the original post. Nothing about OS engines in it.

[FLOYD CARTER]

The original box art for the Stanzel Tiger Shark showed an O&R 60.  If you don't have one, then I guess an OS will do.

[Avaiojet]

Charles, you need to re-read the original post. Nothing about OS engines in it.

Bill,

Correct, and thanks for picking up on that.

I meant O&R.

I actually had an O&R. We flew a toilet seat with one. Only stayed in ground effect.

[Avaiojet]

The original box art for the Stanzel Tiger Shark showed an O&R 60.  If you don't have one, then I guess an OS will do.

Floyd,

I just want to get rid of the model. I need the money for electric stuff.

That O&R.

I kinda remember a company remaking them, unless I have that engine mixed up with another?

[john e. holliday]

11,000 more posts you might pass me.

[FLOYD CARTER]

The company, Ohlsson & Rice Mfg., was in downtown Los Angeles.  They produced engines for a very long time, beginning about 1938 or so, until well into the 1950s.  During the war years, O&R was engaged in military products, but the employees put together a few engines after hours, using parts already on hand.  My first engine was the O&R 23 in 1944.  These were hard to get, and it required a letter to the factory stating that an engine would be used to gain familiarity with aviation so that one could later join the Army Air Corps and serve in the war effort.  My neighbor, an employee of O&R, guided me through the paperwork process.  After more paperwork and red tape, an engine was finally delivered to my local hobby shop with my name on it.

I didn't mention to them that I was only 11 years old, and that I was too young to think about joining the military!

I guess that early experience prompted me, much later in life, to have the desire to "collect" O&R engines.  So now I have about 15 of them!  They are not rare or particularly valuable- because there are still so many of them still out there.

Floyd