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Author Topic: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?  (Read 8230 times)

Offline Kafin Noe知an

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I have been flying with 2-2-2 engine run setup for the past couple of years and it痴 all right. But lately, I have an engine that runs 4-2-4 ish that feels good as well. The only downturn with that 4-2-4 run is sometimes when the 4 is too slow, I値l get a really strong power gain when the nose is up to the point it痴 hard to predict and to handle.

So, generally speaking, which one is easier to fly? Or is it a matter of personal preference?


Best,
Kafin
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 09:09:20 PM by Kafin Noe知an »
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2024, 09:25:04 PM »
It is absolutely personal preference.  I grew up flying 4-2-4 and have never been part of the low pitch high rpm crowd.  That is just me.  Even electric has both versions dependent on how you set up your timer.   I do recommend that you pick one or the other.  How you fly maneuvers is a bit different.

Ken
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2024, 09:46:13 PM »
I have been flying with 2-2-2 engine run setup for the past couple of years and it痴 all right. But lately, I have an engine that runs 4-2-4 ish that feels good as well.
So, generally speaking, which one is easier to fly? Or is it a matter of personal preference?

    Generally it is much, much easier to fly a low pitch/high rev engine, which is why it was almost the only system used for 25-ish ye before electric came along.  Whether it is a a constant 2-stroke or not, it's the low pitch and associated "high" revs that made it work. The reason is that you have so much better speed control/speed recovery that you can make mistakes and recover much quicker. It was so much better that it completely revolutionized the event.

Classic 4-2 engines at low revs, if you make a mistake you might have to wait until the two level laps to fully recover, and they were functionally obsolete almost 30 years ago.

    The other issue with the 4-2 break is that keeping it exactly right was both critical, and difficult. There are so many tricks and techniques you had to know to make it break the right amount at the right time, and even if you managed it, it wouldn't stay that way for long. The engines were also pretty crude, for the most part, you couldn't take a setup on one and use it on the other with any chance of success. People would routinely carry two engines and boxes of parts, not to mention boxes of different propellors for different conditions. I would also note that the 4-2 break era spawned 99& of the barnyard bullsh*t "stunt lore" that still cripples peoples efforts today. You would certainly learn something in the effort - and most of that was counter-productive.

   In the days the everybody ran 4-2 break engines, the performance was so marginal that the person who had their engine run right when it counted (whether by skill or luck) had an overwhelming advantage and usually won. Of course, the highly-skilled had a better chance of having that happen, but there was always a huge random factor, since what worked 10 minutes ago on a practice flight may or may not work again on the offiicial.

   And to be entirely fair, when people finally got around to the ST60, that was the first time you had *any* performance margin, which reduced the criticality of having everything perfect, so for a very brief time that was probably the best solution - if it hadn't already been discontinued. Then a few years later Rich Tower and company discovered how to tame schnuerle engines, Bob Hunt demonstrated it, and various others got a grip on it (particularly Paul Walker) and getting enough dead reliable power hasn't been a problem. That was in the late 80's, ** 36 years ago **.


Quote
The only downturn with that 4-2-4 run is sometimes when the 4 is too slow, I値l get a really strong power gain when the nose is up to the point it痴 hard to predict and to handle.

   Yes, exactly. Knowing what to do to fix that sort of behavior (which may or may not appear and disappear at almost random) is quite non-trivial and no one I know ever really mastered it (and I know a lot of guys). Even if a piped low pitch/high rev flew exactly the same as a perfect 4-2 system, it would still be better because of the lack of endless fiddling. The fact that it gives you vastly better performance is just a bonus.

    Electric is the next big step forward, probably not as completely transformative as piped engines running low pitch, but still an improvement that makes it still easier due to the absolute repeatability, and significantly better speed control.

     Brett
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 09:55:21 AM by Brett Buck »

Offline roy cherry

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2024, 03:35:56 AM »
take note  howard has just summed it all  up   well done  howard         roy  cherry

Offline roy cherry

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2024, 03:38:36 AM »
sorry howard  i mean   brett    sorry i am not abel to meet you guys  at the w/c  this summer  defintly  the best  champs i went to  in 2004   roy cherry

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2024, 07:44:13 AM »
Kafin,
If you want to do the 4-2-4 you need to run at least a 5 -6" pitch to get the lap time similar to the 2-2-2. One other thing is to make sure there are no air leaks in the tubing or around the needle valve or NV assembly where it goes into the venturi. Seal this well as small leaks change the setting as the engine gets hotter and colds down giving very inconsistent runs.

The 2-2-2 also need to be sealed completely.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2024, 08:06:53 PM »
It is absolutely personal preference.
I agree but would add it depends on what model/engine combination you are using. In my case I had a model using a G51 (the stunt timed version) and it was happiest running in a continuous 4 stroke the entire flight. Much later I bought an Enya 61CXLRS and for its first flight I set it in a 4 stroke but with the tiniest hint of an occasional 2 stroke. On the first turn into the RWO it switched into a 2 stroke and continued doing that for the entire flight. All I could think was so THIS is what's meant by a 4-2-4 run! It's been totally reliable ever since but I'll admit I think my initial needle setting was maybe a lucky fluke. For those not familiar with Enya's CXLRS designation, the CX is the model type, L indicates rear  exhaust, R is for ringed and S for stunt with a venturi. It also uses a head button whereas the later red head CXLS is ABC and one piece head. I'm not happy with the red head version because it absolutely will NOT restart until it's cooled right down because when hot it loses all compression even with a replacement piston/liner Enya sent me after I complained about it. The ringed version though is brilliant.

Offline Kafin Noe知an

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2024, 08:51:04 PM »
Thank you for your thorough explanation, Brett.
It really helps me a lot to understand fully as you always elaborate the reason why and how.

The other issue with the 4-2 break is that keeping it exactly right was both critical, and difficult. There are so many tricks and techniques you had to know to make it break the right amount at the right time.

Yep, that's another thing I've found. It's quite hard for me to have that 4-2 break happens every time I fly at the right amount of power at the right time of the maneuvers.


Best,
Kafin
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I fly: P40, XEBEC, and Cardinal

Offline Kafin Noe知an

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2024, 08:52:07 PM »
Kafin,
If you want to do the 4-2-4 you need to run at least a 5 -6" pitch to get the lap time similar to the 2-2-2. One other thing is to make sure there are no air leaks in the tubing or around the needle valve or NV assembly where it goes into the venturi. Seal this well as small leaks change the setting as the engine gets hotter and colds down giving very inconsistent runs.

The 2-2-2 also need to be sealed completely.

Best,    DennisT

Noted.
Thanks Dennis
INA 1630
I fly: P40, XEBEC, and Cardinal

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2024, 09:18:56 PM »
Thank you for your thorough explanation, Brett.
It really helps me a lot to understand fully as you always elaborate the reason why and how.

Yep, that's another thing I've found. It's quite hard for me to have that 4-2 break happens every time I fly at the right amount of power at the right time of the maneuvers.


    It can almost certainly be "fixed" - problem being that it took me decades to even begin to understand how. BTW, the same issue can happen with conventional engines, for example, if you have the pipe length too short, or the base RPM too low. Fortunately it is generally easy to avoid or control and one you fix it, *it says fixed*.

   Brett

Offline Joseph Lijoi

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2024, 08:17:38 AM »
    It can almost certainly be "fixed" - problem being that it took me decades to even begin to understand how. BTW, the same issue can happen with conventional engines, for example, if you have the pipe length too short, or the base RPM too low. Fortunately it is generally easy to avoid or control and one you fix it, *it says fixed*.

   Brett

It is easy to confuse engine speed and aircraft speed (at least for me) and keeping aircraft speed constant; with whatever power supply providing power or deceleration at a given point in the pattern. When I have observed what I assumed to be a successful 4-2-4 run it seemed like it was more about the sound of the engine more than any effect on aircraft speed. 2-2-2 is easier than 4-2-4 with the most difficult being 4-2-8-0.   

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2024, 08:27:51 AM »
Joe,
The thing to do for glow is to set it where the engine likes and runs consistently, then adjust the pitch/diameter to get the lap time you want. It's a little dance but use the needle to get the engine happy and the prop to make the airplane happy.

Best,    DennisT
« Last Edit: June 21, 2024, 02:11:05 PM by Dennis Toth »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2024, 10:55:11 AM »
It is easy to confuse engine speed and aircraft speed (at least for me) and keeping aircraft speed constant; with whatever power supply providing power or deceleration at a given point in the pattern. When I have observed what I assumed to be a successful 4-2-4 run it seemed like it was more about the sound of the engine more than any effect on aircraft speed.

   Sometimes it is just sound, and sometimes it's really doing something. The Fox 35 was 99% sound (including sometimes as 4-0 break, on a profile), and you can certainly set them up where it seems you *lose* power when it goes from 4 to 2. But in other cases it would break and almost pull the handle out of your hand about halfway through the corner, is pile-drive you into the ground.   That was adjustable, and you could adjust it out (and the weather and other factors could greatly affect it), but it was easy to lose all the power at the same time.

     I hesitate to explain further, lest I encourage someone to keep doing it. Go get a 25LA or 40VF, or an electric.

      Interesting questions abound - does it really go from 4-stroking to 2 stroking (or 6 or 8 stroking when back-driven), why does it not suddenty have twice the power when it suddenly starts firing twice as often, etc. Answer is yes, it does actually misfire more-or-less completely on the "dead" stroke, and as noted above the firing strokes on the 4 stroke are much stronger than the firing strokes for the same setting but 2-stroking, since the extra "dead" stroke doesn't give you "any" power, but it does very effectively clean out the engine of all old exhaust products, and retain some of the previous clean charge, so the next time the firing is very efficient. All this knowledge comes from a remarkable paper "THE TWO-CYCLE STUNT ENGINE" by Scott Bair.

        I also note that many of the same ideas and problems are present with modern systems, too, and you can *very easily* create the same situation Kafin encountered with piped systems, You don't need it to change from a 4 to a 2 to get the same sort of effect. You can go from "too little" to "too much" with a 1/2" change in the pipe length on a 40VF with it 2-stroking all the time and barely any change in the character of the sound. The big difference is that once you change it, it stays that way more-or-less indefinitely, or unless you intentionally change something else.

     Also, many people do this based on how "strong" it feels, without considering whether it is really helping them fly more accurately - which it usually doesn't. It is extremely tempting to overdo the boost/brake effects because it actualyl does work and you can handle it *in some conditions*, particularly dead calm or very light air.  The same effects in even 5 mph wind can be fatal or very difficult to deal with

     People have arrived at the various tuned pipe combinations after extensive experimentation with the power delivery, much more than how much "power" you get, because they all have far more than enough power overall. Every bit of advice or setup instructions I have ever provided has been with settings that I know work in exactly the sense we are talking about here, and over a range of conditions.

     Brett

   

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2024, 11:24:22 AM »
Joe,
The thing to do for glow is to set it where the engine likes and runs consistent at, then adjust the pitch/diameter to get the lap time you want. It's a little dance but use the needle to get the engine happy and the prop to make the airplane happy.

     That is right as far as it goes, to first approximation. But I am sure you know that there is far more to it than that. You might have to do that "little dance" at 7:30 in the morning, and then again at noon, and then again if you go from 3 mph to 12 mph, any of which might involve changing the head gaskets, head, venturi, prop type, prop pitch distribution, prop airfoil, nitro, oil content and type, and then get the resulting run length right.

    Brett

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2024, 06:21:55 AM »
As the old saying goes "how do you get to Carnegie Hall --- PRACTICE, PRACTIC, PRACTIC", same for STUNT!  I agree that there are numerous things that can impact the "perfect" engine run but for the vast majority of the fliers getting it close and reasonably consistent then practice, practice, practice is more important than spending time trying to get the "perfect" run. Look at the tracer video's from Brodak's and you can see how much better shape improvements would improve scores rather than worrying about that last little bit of power/brake comes on. J

Happy engine, happy airplane, better scores, happy flier.

Best,   DennisT

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2024, 08:20:14 AM »
As the old saying goes "how do you get to Carnegie Hall --- PRACTICE, PRACTIC, PRACTIC", same for STUNT!  I agree that there are numerous things that can impact the "perfect" engine run but for the vast majority of the fliers getting it close and reasonably consistent then practice, practice, practice is more important than spending time trying to get the "perfect" run. Look at the tracer video's from Brodak's and you can see how much better shape improvements would improve scores rather than worrying about that last little bit of power/brake comes on. J

Happy engine, happy airplane, better scores, happy flier.

Best,   DennisT

You won稚 get far with unreliable/unstable engine, no matter how much you practise. Reliable engine is the key to success. L

« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 01:43:38 PM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2024, 09:33:03 AM »
As the old saying goes "how do you get to Carnegie Hall --- PRACTICE, PRACTIC, PRACTIC", same for STUNT!  I agree that there are numerous things that can impact the "perfect" engine run but for the vast majority of the fliers getting it close and reasonably consistent then practice, practice, practice is more important than spending time trying to get the "perfect" run. Look at the tracer video's from Brodak's and you can see how much better shape improvements would improve scores rather than worrying about that last little bit of power/brake comes on. J

Happy engine, happy airplane, better scores, happy flier.

Best,   DennisT
You are right on.  One thing I have found out after switching to electric is that I no longer even think about the motor when I am flying.  Before it was always "consulted" before I started a maneuver.  Any change in it's sound took my attention away from the pattern.  No more.  I can count on the same run every time.  From the 7:00am warmup flight to the 2:00pm 2nd round it will be the same.  The only change will be some boost adjustments for wind if it changes dramatically.  PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE is much more productive if you don't have to tune the piano between songs.  This is SO important to me because my current schedule only lets me get in about 3-4 flights a week.  I can't spend 2 of them fiddling around with an engine.

Ken
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2024, 01:03:24 PM »
I agree that there are numerous things that can impact the "perfect" engine run but for the vast majority of the fliers getting it close and reasonably consistent then practice, practice, practice is more important than spending time trying to get the "perfect" run.

      No, that has been a unviable approach for many decades now. Not that practice is worthless, but if you accept anything less than ideal performance from anything, you are putting yourself so far behind the curve that you can't possibly "out-practice" a problem. This is the sort of mistake people have made since about 1988. You are not going to out-practice anyone and practicing with problems and trying to overcome them will only teach you how to fly smooth mistakes.

    I watched the ST60 runners at the 95 NATs endless out practicing and fiddling with head shims, venturis, screws in the muffler, shaving props to achieve various dubious purposes. The rest of us put fuel in the airplane and flew it, in my case, not quite enough fuel...   The winner never touched a setting on his airplane all week, missed the needle multiple times, and still just cruised through.

  You might ask yourself why the errors are as they are (which, I again note, are *absolutely not new information* aside from being able to record it...). It's because the equipment makes it effectively impossible to objectively achieve the defined pattern no matter how much you practice. So having even slightly better airplane and engine (usually via better trim and engine setup) can easily overcome endless practice with marginal airplanes.

    And beginners and low-time pilots benefit the most from superior equipment.

     You are of course entitled to your opinion but after trying it both ways, and helping others develop, I could not disagree more with your premise.

     Brett

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2024, 01:49:29 PM »
I agree with have modern equipment with reliable performance. Your point about the ST60 people fussing is exactly my point. Get the setup, then don't keep playing with different kinds of changes to make changes, just fly, fly, fly. I also agree that you can't practice your way out of a bad setup or badly trimmed ship but once everything is set then you can practice for better shapes.

Best,  DennisT

Offline Dan Berry

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2024, 04:30:25 PM »
I would point out that practice does not make perfect.
Practice makes permanent.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2024, 06:48:10 PM »
I agree with have modern equipment with reliable performance. Your point about the ST60 people fussing is exactly my point. Get the setup, then don't keep playing with different kinds of changes to make changes, just fly, fly, fly. I also agree that you can't practice your way out of a bad setup or badly trimmed ship but once everything is set then you can practice for better shapes.

   Problem is that all that fiddling was *absolutely required* because of trying to compete against far superior equipment (46VF and PA40s). This put them at a severe disadvantage that no amount of practice would overcome. They couldn't just leave it alone and fly it because if they had, it might have given you 4 random runs. If your plan is to just practice to build up muscle memory, what it needed at 8 in the morning might be a complete disaster at 1 pm. And that is an *ST60*, which was substantially better than most of what came before it, because it could be a little bit off and still be acceptable.

     One of Ted's flights, he missed the needle and was flying 5.6 second laps (instead of the 5.3 he was dial in for)  - made no difference, it had so much margin he didn't even notice it until I pointed it out.

     I guess to your point, yes, get an engine that works and leave it alone. Problem is that you have to have one of the known good systems, make any small adjustments for your situation, figure out how to make small tweaks as necessary, and move on. Try it with almost any traditional 4-2 break system and you are not going to be able to do that.

    Brett

 

Offline Motorman

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2024, 09:42:57 PM »
What about the 4-4-4. Large power plant in a constant 4 stroke. The power comes up a little in manuvers but it never breaks. That's how I run my LA46 planes and it seems to work. Once I get it dialed in I don't change anything. Don't even need to adjust the needle all season. One thing is, I mix my own fuel the same way every time and keep the filter clean. Love those engines.

MM 8)
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Which One Is Easier to Fly? 2-2-2 or 4-2-4 Engine Run Setup?
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2024, 10:05:32 PM »
What about the 4-4-4. Large power plant in a constant 4 stroke. The power comes up a little in manuvers but it never breaks. That's how I run my LA46 planes and it seems to work. Once I get it dialed in I don't change anything. Don't even need to adjust the needle all season. One thing is, I mix my own fuel the same way every time and keep the filter clean. Love those engines.

  As noted above, that's what our PA61 setup did (which, to give full credit, David came up with), and what the PA75 setup does. If it breaks into a 2-stroke, that's a defect to be corrected. The 75 is really something, the first flight I did on it, it took off and sounded to far down in the 4 I yelled and asked David if that was what is was supposed to run like. 

   When the Jett 61 is running really right, same thing, but it's not as bad if you have to crank it up to run across the break, because it is absurdly smooth to transition back and forth.

    Brett


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