Where/how to look while flying

[Joe Ed Pederson]

Could someone point me to an article/thread on where/how to look while flying? 

On my second flight after a forty year hiatus, I was staring at my 1960's Carl Goldberg Cosmic Wind and flew into the ground attempting an outside loop which I started from the top.  I was so intent on the model (tunnel vision) that I was surprised when it hit the ground (thought I was going to make it).  When I watched the flight on video it was quite clear from the outset that I was never going to make it.

Fortunately, the ground was damp.  The model survived unscathed, just a shattered wood prop and a bent NVA at the crankcase, and some dirt in the venturi.

Thanks in advance, 

Joe Ed Pederson
AMA 103434

[Doug Moisuk]

You need to watch tge plane. I think after 40 ears you need to start more slowly or you need more down elivator or your too nose heavy. Glad to hear your back. Keep at it.

Also outsides are normally done from the inverted position.

[FLOYD CARTER]

Watch a hundred PAMPA=schedule flights.  You will soon see that outside loops start from 45 deg (top).  In OTS, the outside loops may be started from inverted (6 foot level)

[john e. holliday]

They forgot to tell you to follow the plane with your arm.   I've seen many guys move the wrist for a control input for a loop and for get as the plane moves the elevator will go towards neutral if you don't follow the plane with the arm.   Once you are used to the flying again it will almost be automatic.

[Howard Rush]

They forgot to tell you to follow the plane with your arm.   I've seen many guys move the wrist for a control input for a loop and for get as the plane moves the elevator will go towards neutral if you don't follow the plane with the arm.   Once you are used to the flying again it will almost be automatic.

Yup.  That's the most common error that results in hitting the ground unexpectedly when starting an outside from high, upright flight. 

[Ken Culbertson]

Welcome back!  I thought my 35 years off was allot!   I have been back at it since January and flying since March.  Be patient and don't expect your reflexes (muscle memory) to be where it was when you quit but it will come back and once it starts coming back it does it quickly.  One thing that helped me was to not "watch" the plane so much in level flight at first.  Your vision can rapidly tunnel and you don't see the ground till after you have hit it. The thing you seem to loose most is overhead tracking.  The body just does not work the same as it did and you have to find new ways to deal with it.  I know there is a way to do an overhead 8 without falling down.  I will pass it along if I find it!

[Fred Constantine]

Ed -
 Welcome back.  I to am a retread.  I can appreciate your problem, having faced it only recently.
 As previously mentioned, keep your arm aimed at the airplane.  In the beginning, I found it very easy to let my arm drift upward during the outside loop which tended to cancel the down elevator that I was inputting with my wrist.
 Tunnel vision will go away with practice, as you become more at ease while flying. 
 And my personal nemesis - keep up with the airplane.  My dad taught me when I was a boy learning to use a crosscut saw to "keep your eye on the line where your going to cut next and not where you cut last".  If your staring at your airplane your looking at the past.  Try looking ahead or at the front of the airplane. I think this is more of a mental process than where you physically look.  For me, If I look at the ground I'll put the plane in the ground.
 I hope this helps.

[Air Ministry .]

Combat youre supposed to look at the other plane and fly by feel . 

[FLOYD CARTER]

Nothing inherently dangerous starting an outside loop from 45 deg., or higher.  The trick is:

1. Make sure the plane is capable of turning in an acceptable radius,.  Do that by outside loops at the very top of the circle, where there is room to recover. Trim as necessary.

2. As Howard (and others) recommend, lead with your whole arm.  Use the arm to "push" the plane where you want it to go.  Wrist control in not reliable, although some wrist snap is needed for square corners..

[Dan McEntee]

   When you drive a nail in with a hammer, do you look at the hammer head or the nail you are hitting with it? When you drive a care or ride a bike, do you look at the hood of the car or the front wheel. or do you look where you want to drive and steer the vehicle where you need to go?
   Tunnel vision when learning the pattern is hard to over come. You have to use your whole field of vision. rom the time I was a Beginner to when I moved into Expert, I figured out along the way that I need to use my peripheral vision as well as looking at the orientation of the airplane. As you improve, your models will improve also. A well trimmed model and confidence in it's performance help this also. When I am flying at my best, I can "see" the shape I need to fly as I approach the maneuver, then I just trace the shape with the airplane. I still fall back into the tunnel vision every now and then.
    The outside loops are one thing, outside squares are another! More than one aiprlane has been written off looking at the model and trying to time the pull out, and most times the first down line is curved and the shape looks like a backwards "D". But just like hitting the nail on the head, if you use your field of vision correctly, you can see the ground in your peripheral vision and know when to pull out. To put it more simply, you need  to learn to see the ground while looking at your airplane and sometimes vice versa. It's way easier said than done, but that's my take on how to "look" at your airplane.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Frank Egyed]

Today was the third day/6th-9th flight I've flown since I last flew at the Queensland State Champs in 1976. I managed a (very sloppy) full pattern and it all felt pretty ok (like riding a bike) except for the occasional moment of worry that I hadn't brought spare underpants, and maneuvers pulling out way too high.  The best advice I was given after my first flight was 'fly the nose', which made me realise I was concentrating on the centre of mass rather than where it was pointing. Once I focused on the nose, plus peripheral vision of course, I knew where the plane was going...

[Ken Culbertson]

Today was the third day/6th-9th flight I've flown since I last flew at the Queensland State Champs in 1976. I managed a (very sloppy) full pattern and it all felt pretty ok (like riding a bike) except for the occasional moment of worry that I hadn't brought spare underpants, and maneuvers pulling out way too high.  The best advice I was given after my first flight was 'fly the nose', which made me realize I was concentrating on the center of mass rather than where it was pointing. Once I focused on the nose, plus peripheral vision of course, I knew where the plane was going...

I am about 15 flights and 10 patterns from my last contest in 1979 so I feel your pain. Once you get your feet under you again and find out that the ground is right where you left it, it all comes back very quickly.  If you are flying the newer power plants and planes you are probably still trying to get over having line tension overhead.  I had some old heads that flew through the revolution tell me what I needed to change and within about 10 patterns I am bumping on the lower end of Expert again.  These new planes fly so much better that I fully expect by the end of the season to be flying better than I did when I quit and once they instate the Over 70 handicap points for the overhead 8 I may actually be competitive!

Hang in there - Ken

[bob whitney]

a safe way to see if your plane Will do an outside loop is to flop it over inverted ,do a lap or two then do the outside loop from the inverted position this gives u plenty of room if you see that it wont make it
  something I learned flying someone else plane, never do a reverse wing over until you know it will turn both ways

[Ken Culbertson]

a safe way to see if your plane Will do an outside loop is to flop it over inverted ,do a lap or two then do the outside loop from the inverted position this gives u plenty of room if you see that it wont make it
  something I learned flying someone else plane, never do a reverse wing over until you know it will turn both ways

Something I learned from flying someone else plane is to not do a Reverse Wing over at all!

[Joe Ed Pederson]

Everyone,

Thanks for all the suggestions.  I hadn't checked this thread since May 24th and was pleased to see all the responses since then.

I sure wish we had had the internet and Stunthanger when I was a kid. 

Thanks again,
Joe Ed Pederson

[Ken Culbertson]

Everyone,

Thanks for all the suggestions.  I hadn't checked this thread since May 24th and was pleased to see all the responses since then.

I sure wish we had had the internet and Stunthanger when I was a kid. 

Thanks again,
Joe Ed Pederson

It would have saved me from rebuilding the Flight Streak so many times!

Ken

[Tim Wescott]

Watch a hundred PAMPA=schedule flights.  You will soon see that outside loops start from 45 deg (top).  In OTS, the outside loops may be started from inverted (6 foot level)

Uh...
You may want to consult a rule book.

[Mike Haverly]

I think it is easier to learn outside loops inverted, the way the PAMPA pattern is described.  Start by doing lazy eights and complete the outside loop from there.  You will have a better idea where the ground reference is. 

[Tim Wescott]

You learn to see the ground in your peripheral vision while looking at the plane. Until then -- keep your maneuvers high.

[Frank Egyed]

I am about 15 flights and 10 patterns from my last contest in 1979 so I feel your pain. Once you get your feet under you again and find out that the ground is right where you left it, it all comes back very quickly.  If you are flying the newer power plants and planes you are probably still trying to get over having line tension overhead.  I had some old heads that flew through the revolution tell me what I needed to change and within about 10 patterns I am bumping on the lower end of Expert again.  These new planes fly so much better that I fully expect by the end of the season to be flying better than I did when I quit and once they instate the Over 70 handicap points for the overhead 8 I may actually be competitive!

Hang in there - Ken

Thanks for you encouragement Ken The ground is certainly just where I left it - it just comes up faster than it used to Interestingly I find not much difference in line tension overhead - perhaps because I never had anywhere near the theoretical knowledge then, that I do now, and always had at least "a half-inch" of right-rudder and obvious out-thrust (as much as I could twist the engine between the bearers) on my Top Flite Nobler then Sig Chipmunk, and they didn't seem to suffer from one wing not flying as well as the other due to excessive yaw. Could be one of the rare occasions my "extra knowledge" is not serving me... Sometimes ignorance is bliss...

Frank

[Dennis Toth]

Frank,
I think it is important to look good, bathed, clean cloths, trimmed hair, brush teeth and generally the old neat and clean so one doesn't look like a crazy weird guy.

Oh wait, you were talking about looking at the airplane. OK, I fly the OTS pattern and generally do the outside loops from the top down (like the outside squares in PA). When doing this since you are coming back to CL stunt it works well to start high at say 65- 75 degree up top then do a little climb to slow the ship and apply a good amount of down elevator. Follow the ship around the maneuver with your arm making sure you hold the down control until you complete the loop back at the top. As you fly more you will get a feel for how much elevator you need gradually opening the loop up and starting at a little lower altitude and eliminate the climb at entry. For PA outside squares you want to be around the 45 deg height for OTS around 55 - 60 is good. Just keep working on it do some visualization practice and you will improve quickly.

Best,   DennisT

[Air Ministry .]

how to look while flying

Your supposed to wear white trousers & golf shoes . 

[Randy Cuberly]

Your supposed to wear white trousers & golf shoes . 

Now that is funny!!! 

Maybe that's why I never got to the top of the heap in expert!

UUhhhhhhh...maybe not! 

Randy Cuberly

[Tom Luciano]

I have to say when I saw the title, I was thinking on the funny line too.

mine was:

 where to look? At as many of the hot chicks watching you fly!

How to look? as smooth and suave to look good for said chicks!

We all know stunt flyers get all the babes or wait that's combat guys!

Sorry I just couldn't resist or maybe I'll fly better if I actually look at the plane!

just having some fun,
Tom

[Brett Buck]

2. As Howard (and others) recommend, lead with your whole arm.  Use the arm to "push" the plane where you want it to go.  Wrist control in not reliable, although some wrist snap is needed for square corners..

      Howard said that?  You do not use your arm to apply control unless you get in trouble. You move your arm to keep your hand between the center of your body and the airplane.

   The airplane is controlled with finger movement, forearm rotation, and wrist motion. And you never "snap" anything, you might move fast, but "snapping" is an uncontrolled movement, more or less, and you can never afford to do an uncontrolled movement.

    Brett

[Howard Rush]

Howard who?

[Dan Berry]

     
. And you never "snap" anything, you might move fast, but "snapping" is an uncontrolled movement, more or less, and you can never afford to do an uncontrolled movement.

    Brett

Wow. I never looked at it that way.
Why hasn't this been publicized?

[Air Ministry .]

. And you never "snap" anything, you might move fast, but "snapping" is an uncontrolled movement, more or less, and you can never afford to do an uncontrolled movement.

    Brett

  UNLESS Youve Got a Rabe Rudder . 

[Ken Culbertson]

      Howard said that?  You do not use your arm to apply control unless you get in trouble. You move your arm to keep your hand between the center of your body and the airplane.

   The airplane is controlled with finger movement, forearm rotation, and wrist motion. And you never "snap" anything, you might move fast, but "snapping" is an uncontrolled movement, more or less, and you can never afford to do an uncontrolled movement.

    Brett

I could have used a "snap" Sunday when my "forearm rotation, wrist and finger movement" (which is the best way to fly) was too late to save me from the downdraft of a Texas Thermal in the last corner of the hourglass.  I got to full up just in time to save the plane but not the prop. One more thing to scratch off my list of things I should have known.  This time "Rookie Mistake", next time "Just Plain Stupid".  I had forgotten that when the plane over rotates and you didn't do it that the air is different - oops.

Ist contest since returning and I had a blast placing next to last!  It was a complete success and I can thank the "Experts" on this forum for all the advice, criticism and ideas that led to a plane that flew better than the pilot and got me back into reasonable enough shape to fly Expert and not be embarrassed.

Thanks - Ken