Author Topic: Can you identify what Pacific Northwest Flyer built this T-Bird..? (Read 4224 times)

REX1945 · « **on:** April 19, 2012, 01:49:17 AM »

A friend of mine bought this T-Bird at a garage sale in Port Angeles recently with a Johnson (.29 or .35 ?) engine in it. The upper surface silkspan had left the planet long ago, but the AMA number was on BOTTOM OF THE PLANE. I guess that when you're upside down it is the upper lifting surface!

AMA Number : 8032

It is amazing how thin the wing section is and how small the tailfeathers are compared to some of the "modern" versions of the T-Bird we see now.

How can I tell a Johnson .35 from a Johnson .29 ?

Rex

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #1 on:** April 19, 2012, 02:08:47 AM »

Looks like a Smoothie to me.

Marvin Denny · « **Reply #2 on:** April 19, 2012, 07:34:35 AM »

Sure looks like Smoothie to me too. Also the smoothie had a thinner airfoil than the T-Bird.

Bigiron

Terrence Durrill · « **Reply #3 on:** April 19, 2012, 08:16:42 AM »

Yep, it's a SMOOTHIE alright. I built one in 1956, when I was 16 years old and powered it with a brand new Fox .35 stunt engine. It was a nice flying plane and I still have the airframe (and the engine) down in a back corner of my shop. My hope is to restore it to flying condition at some time in the future (if I live that long) Ah yes, those were the days.

Larry Cunningham · « **Reply #4 on:** April 19, 2012, 08:46:52 AM »

Pretty sure it's a Smoothie instead of a T-Bird. And the AMA number was probably also on the top outboard wing as well, which seems to be missing its covering. Low AMA number, should be easy to identify the builder and flier.

L.

"Man only likes to count his troubles, but he does not count his joys." -Fyodor Dostoyevsky

REX1945 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 19, 2012, 09:26:39 AM »

Larry,

   As far as I know, the AMA didn't save the records from the 50's.

   My only thought is that someone has a picture of the plane and flyer.

   Is there any other way to find it ?

Rex

PS : Oooo..ppp..ss you're right, it's a Smoothie. What threw me off was that the the tailfeathers on my Brodak
   Smoothie are a bit larger and I built the upright engine.

Garf · « **Reply #6 on:** April 19, 2012, 10:03:53 AM »

Johnson engines had a number in a circle under the exhaust stack. The ones without numbers were either replacement cases or Sport Specials.

dankar · « **Reply #7 on:** April 19, 2012, 10:13:14 AM »

Johnson's had # under exhaust or letters C/S/SS/ RC/BB and only engine without any of this was Sport Special. It is large case engine about .35 size. Rest had #'s ie:.29/32/.35. The One with just S was the Stunt small case about .33 size. Had .35 p/l and .29 crank.

Bill Little · « **Reply #8 on:** April 19, 2012, 10:54:27 AM »

Quote from: dankar on April 19, 2012, 10:13:14 AM

Johnson's had # under exhaust or letters C/S/SS/ RC/BB and only engine without any of this was Sport Special. It is large case engine about .35 size. Rest had #'s ie:.29/32/.35. The One with just S was the Stunt small case about .33 size. Had .35 p/l and .29 crank.

How about the Stunt Supreme w/"SS" in the circle. I have seen that one, NIB at a buddy's house.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

EddyR · « **Reply #9 on:** April 19, 2012, 11:46:39 AM »

My AMA number is 8033 one number different

I bet this was a upright motor version and it was changed later. the motor sat higher in the inverted version and the nose looks changed in the topside picture.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #10 on:** April 19, 2012, 06:22:44 PM »

Rex, I'd email the pictures to Dave Gardner, Gary Letsinger and Don Schultz. They might remember the plane or have a picture of a plane with that number. The AMA # is not that far off from mine...higher, actually. But then, I never did understand why I got such a low number when I joined up in '63.

Steve

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #11 on:** April 19, 2012, 06:54:32 PM »

The Lifetime members have less digits in their numbers as well,, so thats a possibility as well...

REX1945 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 19, 2012, 08:14:34 PM »

Garf,

This one has no markings inside the circle below the stack. It has six head bolts. The top coolong fins
are a bit "domed" as opposed to the "flat look" of an OS Max.

Rex

Bill Morell · « **Reply #13 on:** April 20, 2012, 10:01:24 AM »

Rex, a few months ago I posted the pics of a bunch of different Johnson's. Do a search and see if there is anything the same. From your description my guess would be a "Sport Special" although there were some "SS" engines produced that didn't have the "SS" on them. Easy to tell from the venturi stack.

Joejust · « **Reply #14 on:** April 20, 2012, 05:14:02 PM »

Quote from: Mark Scarborough on April 19, 2012, 06:54:32 PM

The Lifetime members have less digits in their numbers as well,, so thats a possibility as well...

Mark "Life" numbers ended with #99 until the early 70's.
Joe Just

Bill Morell · « **Reply #15 on:** April 20, 2012, 11:37:32 PM »

Quote from: jim ivey on April 20, 2012, 10:32:16 PM

Phil Drop the sport Speacial name . We never made a damn sport speacial!!!! the small case stunt was stamped with a starret small case s metal stamp. I said"get it Hi? Its a small case s" I personally did first ones of them free hand I know some may have been missed were crooked or off center but after a few hundred you get tired. SS were all molded letters all large case jim ivey Dynamic models 1955-1962 smooovie yup

Jim, sometimes your memory ain't what it used to be but then neither is mine. I have seen many Johnson boxes with a red sticker on it with black lettering that clearly said "Sport Special". Also is shown in "Anderson Blue Book" of model engines and I'll take their opinion over yours on Johnson engines.

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #16 on:** April 21, 2012, 06:37:25 PM »

Quote from: REX1945 on April 19, 2012, 08:14:34 PM

Garf,

This one has no markings inside the circle below the stack. It has six head bolts. The top coolong fins
are a bit "domed" as opposed to the "flat look" of an OS Max.

Rex

It's possible it is then a small case Johnson "s" which would be wonderful for you. The "s" was an engine made originally by Hi Johnson for a Socal flier (I forget who, right now) by a .29 crank together with the .35 piston and sleeve. Doing so reduced the very high compression .35 to something like 6.4 to one and made for a very gentle break. The resulting displacement was .3348 and the engine is probably the best stunt engine of its era, IMHO.

The production "s"s had the circle on the case smoothed over somehow and a single small "s" more or less hand stamped on it. Some of them weren't all that obvious as I recall. I need to go down to my engine case and take a look at my two engines. If I see I've mislead you I'll post an addendum to this note.

Ted Fancher

REX1945 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 21, 2012, 11:10:39 PM »

Ted,

   I brought the Johnson in questoion to the Walker Contest in Portland this weekend.

   Scott Reese says all Johnson .35/.29 's had 4 head bolts. This has six, so he claims it must be a later
Johnson; a Johnson .36 J with Six head bolts. Supposedly a very powerful engine for its time.

   It would therefore be a good candidate for my Mars, which I just re-kitted today.

Rex

PS : I don't exactly know how to describe crashing an airplane buoilt from scratch.

Bill Morell · « **Reply #18 on:** April 22, 2012, 09:20:05 AM »

Quote from: jim ivey on April 22, 2012, 07:07:25 AM

THATS BS PHIL If a guy needed a replacenent case we replaced it with what letters or size it was!! we made NO generic,or blank casesand NO sport speacials PERIOD!!! I built these engines I KNOW!!!! show the factory box COMPLETE aDRESS ON IT!!!!! jim

I got to disagree with Jim on this one. I have 3 different large case engines all with a blank dot. The only "Sport Specials" I know of were large case engines with a blank dot. Built to compete with the Mc Coy Red Head 35 from what I have read/been told. The case was originally for the BB but the crank had a conical shaped pressed on bushing on it up front that goes into the back of the thrust washer. On these particular engines there is no "flat spot" or key on the crank or in the thrust washer to hold it in place. There is also a aluminum bushing in the case in place of the bronze bushing. If I get ambitious I will dis-assemble one of the 2 that I have and take pics. Might even show you some different rods Jimmy. I thought that from that last email you sent you had finally conceded that you were wrong about them?
P.S. I did get ambitious and dis-assembled 3 engines and took pics of the differences and also 3 DIFFERENT con-rods just for Jimmy so that we can hopefully put this to rest. As soon as my wife figures out how to get to the pics onto our computer I will post them.

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #19 on:** April 22, 2012, 09:43:04 AM »

PS : Oooo..ppp..ss you're right, it's a Smoothie. What threw me off was that the the tailfeathers on my Brodak Smoothie are a bit larger and I built the upright engine. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I continue to be amazed at differences that surface with the Brodak Old Timers and Classics. Are they taking questionable liberties?

Bill Morell · « **Reply #20 on:** April 22, 2012, 03:41:08 PM »

Jim, I can't show you any box's of the "Sport Special" as I don't have any. All the box's that I have seen this sticker on were the ones with clear plastic lid. Sticker has always been in the upper left hand corner. If memory serves me right? I seem to remember these also being offered in the AHC ads back in the 60's and early 70's which doesn't mean much because they always seemed to buy in bulk and had a large stock on hand. Who knows, maybe you were in school that day? The time line that you have presented indicates that you should have been.

Bill Morell · « **Reply #21 on:** April 22, 2012, 03:43:49 PM »

Quote from: jim ivey on April 20, 2012, 10:32:16 PM

Phil Drop the sport Speacial name . We never made a damn sport speacial!!!! the small case stunt was stamped with a starret small case s metal stamp. I said"get it Hi? Its a small case s" I personally did first ones of them free hand I know some may have been missed were crooked or off center but after a few hundred you get tired. SS were all molded letters all large case jim ivey Dynamic models 1955-1962 smooovie yup

That's funny Jim! I have 2 "SS" engines that are stamped and not cast.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #22 on:** April 23, 2012, 05:49:15 AM »

I see no one has identified the two people in the pics. Too much about an engine that seems like my McCoy that didn't exist when I flew my first contest.

jim ivey · « **Reply #23 on:** April 23, 2012, 07:52:05 AM »

Phill, Bill, I have to apologize!

what Riley says I believe, it makes sense. I guess there was a sport spacial. sorry you two

and thank you Riley

And to the rest of you who've had to put ip with my bad manners

jim

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #24 on:** April 23, 2012, 04:59:41 PM »

I thought that "SS" stood for Stunt Supreme, the large case version of the "Stunt" series of decompressed engines. I ran a Stunt Supreme in my Pirouette that I flew in the 1967 Nats.

I also remember there was a period of time that several mfgrs were trying to compete with the low cost original McCoy redheads (the front intake sport/stunt redheads, not the rear intake speed engines) although I don't remember which ones exactly.

Ted

jim ivey · « **Reply #25 on:** April 24, 2012, 08:14:00 AM »

Hi should have done what Henry did, put it all in 55 gallon drums for the scrap man. Replacing class 7 bearings with aluminum slugs

I couldn't believe he did that

Jim

Scott B. Riese · « **Reply #26 on:** April 27, 2012, 04:20:37 PM »

Quote from: REX1945 on April 21, 2012, 11:10:39 PM

Ted,

   I brought the Johnson in questoion to the Walker Contest in Portland this weekend.

   Scott Reese says all Johnson .35/.29 's had 4 head bolts. This has six, so he claims it must be a later

I ALSO SAID I WOULD HAVE TO TAKE THE ENGINE APART TO CONFERMJohnson; a Johnson .36 J with Six head bolts. Supposedly a very powerful engine for its time.

   It would therefore be a good candidate for my Mars, which I just re-kitted today.

Rex

PS : I don't exactly know how to describe crashing an airplane buoilt from scratch.

jim ivey · « **Reply #27 on:** April 27, 2012, 05:13:33 PM »

AAAAA riley if you"re looking Y'all I had a guy tell me you and I didn't have airplanes that flew over 120 mph. What do ya think anout that King.? jim ivey

dale gleason · « **Reply #28 on:** April 27, 2012, 08:21:40 PM »

My new- in- the- box Johnson has a reddish/orange sticker inside and outside the box that says "Sport Special $12.95 -35 Class". Tis sticker covers up a rectangular box that probably had a different motor label.

It has 6 head bolts, the place under the stack has been machined smooth and there is no number there. It was built by "Dynamic Models, Inc., 13755 Saticoy St. Van Nuys, Calif, Telephone STate 1-0503. Paper work includes parts list for the "Johnson Sport Engine" is in addition to the regular Johnson parts list. Stroke is .770 Bore is .730 for a displacement of .322. Also encluded on the parts list is a form to send in for your "free hop-up instructions".

It is a beautiful motor, the only Johnson I've ever owned that wasn't an outboard motor. dg

Larry Fernandez · « **Reply #29 on:** April 27, 2012, 10:42:53 PM »

Sport Special ?
Stunt Supreme ?
Stunt ?

I wish Mr. Johnson was still around to clear this up once and for all.
I have two of the "S" versions (Stunt?). Killer classic motors that run just like a Fox .35 but with a tad more power.

My only complaint is that one of them blows more oil out of the front than the exhaust. Im sure the front bushing needs replacing but I have no idea where to get it done.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

jim ivey · « **Reply #30 on:** April 28, 2012, 01:14:13 AM »

Larry you guys wouldn't believe him either .

john e. holliday · « **Reply #31 on:** April 28, 2012, 08:22:39 AM »

Hey Dale, I have the full set of hop up literature that Johnson printed. I used a couple of Johnson Combat Specials including one that had been hopped up. It was fast until the engie blew the bottem engine mount off the plane. Still had the engine mounting lug attached. Now my brother bought the Johnson Sport Special. Wish I had a picture of it, as no markings and squared off intake.

riley wooten · « **Reply #32 on:** April 28, 2012, 09:16:36 AM »

Quote from: jim ivey on April 27, 2012, 05:13:33 PM

AAAAA riley if you"re looking Y'all I had a guy tell me you and I didn't have airplanes that flew over 120 mph. What do ya think anout that King.? jim ivey

Jim, when I was around you were a junior flying stunt. Don't remember you flying combat but since you were a junior I probably was not paying any
attention....The fastest planes I had in those days rigged for combat, less streamer (not just trying for speed) were as follows: 1956-green head K&B
on suction 85 to 90mph. 57 - 58 Johnson 35 highly reworked on bladder 100 to 110. With big case Johnson CS reworked and my own head I ran in
the 110 to 115 mph range.. When Johnson quit mfg. and I switched to Fox around 64 our speeds went to 115 to 118.. These Foxes were highly
modified and I was often accused of having ST guts in them. I played along with this but they were all Fox...

I will say one thing, I heard a lot about 120 mph combat planes but I never got in a circle with anyone that was out running me!! From the mid 50's
to the mid 60's there was no one rigged for combat going over 120mph including you..................

As a side note: I could get more out of the Johnson CS but winding them any more would blow the jug...
RW

Author Topic: Can you identify what Pacific Northwest Flyer built this T-Bird..? (Read 4224 times)

Joejust