Author Topic: When did the 'Magician'... (Read 4943 times)

phil myers · « **on:** January 10, 2014, 12:24:26 PM »

Just curious to know, coz I'm building one, but when did the profile Magician 35 first make an appearance? And is there a list out there with all the design/publishing dates of the old (vintage ?) models.
Thanks Phil

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2014, 06:32:52 PM »

"And is there a list out there with all the design/publishing dates of the old (vintage ?) models."

Yes, there is or was a website with all that, and it was done up by one of your countrymen. Problem is, I don't have the link anymore and can't recall the bloke's name either. But he flew on a lot of WC teams for UK as I recall, and flew basically either Thunderbirds or Noblers. Dave Day? Something like that. Maybe somebody can find the link?

Steve

John Miller · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2014, 08:53:52 PM »

One of my "Club mates", built the first "Magician" I ever saw fly. That was in San Gabriel Valley earlier than 1962. We found the design flew pretty darned good for a plane with no flaps, and the stab in the wrong place.

Serge_Krauss · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2014, 09:06:00 PM »

Yes. The school chum who started me in control line built one from a kit while we were still in college. I'm thinking 1964-5. He wasn't one to build from plans, so I'm pretty sure it was a kit. It was doubtless the last CL plane he built, and he showed it to me at a drive in. I never saw it fly.

SK

Mike Keville · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2014, 09:12:52 PM »

Well, you'd have to ask Jim Silhavy, who I believe designed it.

Right? Wrong?

pipemakermike · « **Reply #5 on:** January 11, 2014, 02:16:12 AM »

The chap who compiled a list of vintage and classic models together with designer and date was Dave Day a longtime UK stunt flyer and regular winner of stunt competitions. His site seems to have disappeared but I have used the ""wayback" machine to suck the lists out of the web to ensure that the information is not lost. I will plan to make enquiries about the reasons that the site has vanished and if the vibes are good I will make the data available again.

Bill Mohrbacher · « **Reply #6 on:** January 11, 2014, 07:57:04 AM »

Technical Model Products was located in Pittsburgh. Allan Grier and Bill Ayers flew the Magician in our area in the summer of 1960. I bought a TMP Magician Jr kits at Bargain City near Willow Grove NAS when I was down there for the 1961 NATs. A week or so after the NATs a Navy jet crashed into Bargain City completely destroying it.

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #7 on:** January 11, 2014, 12:29:33 PM »

Further information regarding the Magician. I believe the design goes back into the early 60's as mentioned. Midwest wasn't a very big co0mpany at that time, and didn't put big, full page adds in the magazines, so their adds are hard to find, even if you look them up in the index. I didn't have time to research adds for the Magician just yet, maybe this weekend.
I do, however, have four different kits of the Magician. The first is the technical Products kit, as was mentioned previously. The plans are pretty complete, but not as "finished" as most are used to seeing plans. They look like pencil drawings that someone may do in their home shop, nicely detailed and complete, but don't have the "look" of commercial kit plans. I think Jim Silhavey was the producer of this kit, and maybe he drew these plans, and just reproduced them for the kit? The title block calls out 48 1/2" wing span, 488 sq. in. area, and the airfoil is 1 5/8' thick. No half ribs in the wing. The plans has the little magician "character" that some are familiar with and that Brodak uses on their kit.
Next is the Midwest Products kit. My kit is one of the earlier ones. Has pretty much the same plan as the technical Products kit, but is more "finished" and commercial look to them. Same wing span and area as the technical Products kit, same airfoil thickness. No half ribs either. I would think that if Jim designed the model originally with the half ribs, they may have been left out of the kits as a cost saving measure. Remember the time periods involved here, money had to go a lot further in those days.
Next comes the Walter Umland kit. The plans say that his version was produced with the help of Jim Silhavey, and mostly followed the Midwest kit. The title block says it is 48" wingspan, 480 sq. in. area, and airfoil appears to be the same as teh Midwest/Technical Products versions. Walter has the plans drawn and kit produced to build a wing of equal span, as the model will perform a bit better that way, and makes note that in order to qualify for Classic competition, one out board wing rib bay should be left off. It also has half ribs.
And finally comes the Brodak kit. I can't remember if this came out before or after Walter's kit, but Jim Silhavey provided assistance in producing this version also. It is significantly small than the others, and has a different fuselage outline. The title block on the plans calls out 407 sq. in. area, 43 1/4" span and the airfoil is a bit thinner at 1 1/2". This kit resurrects the magician mascot character as I mentioned before, and the wing has half ribs.
None of the plans with the kits I have show flaps, and all are considered to be eligible for Classic competition, with and without flaps. I do plan to build one, one of these days, and will probably use the earlier Technical Products version, as drawn on the plans.
I do have at least one .15 size kit, maybe two, but they are buried a bit deeper in the stack. That is a story for another day, but I believe they were produced at the same time as the larger version by Midwest products.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

phil myers · « **Reply #8 on:** January 11, 2014, 01:58:44 PM »

Thanks to all for the replies.. no definitive, as to when exactly the Magician 35 first appeared, around the late 50s, early 60s, but its been interesting reading and I thank you all for that. The plans I'm using have l/e sheeted, 48" w/s and 2" longer inboard wing(tho' I plan to reduce by 1"), but there is no information on the plans about the designer/date history. Ah well, its fun searching. (I loose myself on these forums, for hours sometimes, its wonderful!)
Phil

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2014, 02:08:19 PM »

I have the Midwest plan and it says it was designed by Jim Silhavy. So apparently he did both the original and the Midwest version. It also states in the instructions that movable flaps are optional but that it does not need them to fly well. This is my 4th movable flapped version built exactly off the plans with no changes.

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2014, 02:16:08 PM »

Quote from: Ty Marcucci on January 11, 2014, 01:30:49 PM

Both the Magician 35 and the original came out at the same time by Walter. Later he sold the kit rights to John.

I have the Technical Models plans from my kit and they are virtually identical to the Midewest plans except for the lable. Your statement saying they are "rough" confuses me. Did they put out a later kit with better plans??

The Brodak kit has the little Magicians in color. I did that for Walter and both are on my latest Magician 35 (proper name by the way)

Hi Ty;
   The Technical Products plans in my kit are nice, complete plans and the lay out is very much like the Midwest kit, they just aren't "finished" or inked like you are used to on typical kit plans. They look like penciled drawings. I had high school drafting classes, and have drawn up and enlarged plans by hand drawing them, and that is what they look like. Very usable and readable, but look more like a preliminary plan. No dates on the at all but mention Jim as being a Mirror Meet winner and King Orange winner I believe, so those big contests were used as advertising and marketing points, so I take that to mean the kit was produced when those contests were heavy on potential customers minds. I translate that top late 50's and early 60's. Kinda hard to explain I guess. Best way I have to try and date them. I hope to sit down with my files tonight and see if I can find an add for them, but like I mentioned before, they didn't have big adds at that time and were usually just advertising balsa. I did find the list of kits that Midwest sent me a few years ago, and I'll have to scan that and send it to y6ou just for giggles and grins. I contacted them recently asking them if they still had an archive list, but got a reply back that said "We are no longer in the model airplane business." Well, thank you very little!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2014, 02:22:14 PM »

Quote from: phil myers on January 11, 2014, 01:58:44 PM

Thanks to all for the replies.. no definitive, as to when exactly the Magician 35 first appeared, around the late 50s, early 60s, but its been interesting reading and I thank you all for that. The plans I'm using have l/e sheeted, 48" w/s and 2" longer inboard wing(tho' I plan to reduce by 1"), but there is no information on the plans about the designer/date history. Ah well, its fun searching. (I loose myself on these forums, for hours sometimes, its wonderful!)
Phil

Hi Phil;
The plan you have may be someone else's modified version with the leading edge sheeting. Instead of shortening the inboard wing, think about lengthening the outboard wing, especially if this is going to be a sport model or for beginner or intermediate stunt contests. A common mod when I got started was to move the stab back even with the rudder. I think this helps the model if you use flaps, but like Jim Kraft mentioned, it flies well as is. Either way you do it, just make it as straight and square as you can, and have fun with it!

Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Bill Mohrbacher · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2014, 02:24:08 PM »

As I said, Alan and Bill were demonstrating the Magician in the summer of 1960 when their TMP kit came out. They always credited Jim with the design. The ad is from the July 1960 MAN. The picture is me and my buddy Frank Salvano after we got back from Willow Grove and had our Magician Jrs finished. I'm on the right, I put flaps on mine.

RC Storick · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2014, 02:26:22 PM »

Back in 1969 the Magician was the plane I learned the pattern with Fox .35

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2014, 04:59:10 PM »

Quote from: Bill Mohrbacher on January 11, 2014, 02:24:08 PM

As I said, Alan and Bill were demonstrating the Magician in the summer of 1960 when their TMP kit came out. They always credited Jim with the design. The ad is from the July 1960 MAN. The picture is me and my buddy Frank Salvano after we got back from Willow Grove and had our Magician Jrs finished. I'm on the right, I put flaps on mine.

   Hi Bill;
   Thanks for digging that up. That is what I was going to look for, but that never goes as fast as you want it to, once you get into it and start finding a whole lot more that what you started to look for! I love the photo and especially like the add. Check out the line at the bottom of the add under the Magician!!! I'll back track from that mag and see if they came out any earlier, but 1960 is still pretty close to the Morror Meet for them to be using that as part of their advertisement and marketing plan. The little mascot guy is on there also. Almost looks like the Caesar's Pizza guy! I'm not putting my kits back too far deep in the stack this time. Just might have to break my building slump with one. One of the more classic airplanes of all time, I think.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

PS to add: Don't you wish they were still $5.95!!! The R/C bipe looks cool also.

Bill Mohrbacher · « **Reply #15 on:** January 11, 2014, 05:55:24 PM »

I think if you back track, you'll find the TMP Hifire fuel ads, but probably no Magicians.

Jim Thomerson · « **Reply #16 on:** January 11, 2014, 08:36:15 PM »

Jim Silhavy flew a white Magician at the 1960 Dallas Nats (maybe 61, I am not sure which one I attended.) George Aldrich also flew it. I saw it but did not pay much attention to it.

builditright · « **Reply #17 on:** January 11, 2014, 10:14:57 PM »

Hi Guys, After seing this post I figured I should look at the letters of permission I received from
both Jim Silhavy and Bill Ayers of TMP.

Bill did not give a definite date other than to say the Magician was marketed in late 50's early 60's.
Jim's letter was also not clear for actual design date. since I could not add an absolute design date
maybe you guys would like to at least see a color picture of what the original TMP prototype looked like,
well at least after it was cleaned off from almost 40 years in the rafters.
photos were taken in 2003.

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #18 on:** January 12, 2014, 12:01:29 AM »

Very Cool Walter! I do like the kit rudder shape better than the prototype.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

phil myers · « **Reply #19 on:** January 12, 2014, 05:02:29 PM »

Hi Dan, the wing is built and epoxied in place, but I could still move the stab/elevator back..

Bill, the advert is interesting, it says 32oz, if thats the finished weight including engine I might struggle to get that light. This will be for sport/fun flying (with flaps)

Phil

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #20 on:** January 12, 2014, 05:58:02 PM »

Phil;
There isn't a whole lotto that airplane as it was designed. Slim, narrow fuselage, and large, open structure for the wing, there is not a lot of balsa there. Even with the leading edge sheeting you are adding, as long as you are not using barn siding, it shouldn't add much. I'll bet it comes in under 40 ounces. Even up to 45 ounces, with flaps, it should do OK.
Good luck and have fun,
Dan McEntee

John Sunderland · « **Reply #21 on:** January 12, 2014, 08:38:37 PM »

Im pretty sure a Magician will fly well up to about 40 oz. Mine weighed 34 all up ready to fly and I thought it was a little light!

L0U CRANE · « **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2014, 10:58:03 PM »

Phil,

On another site, or forum within one, I mentioned that I recall flying a very early Midwest kit Magician (about 1957-58?) at a Mirror Model Flying Fair (MMFF = Mirror Meet, at Floyd Bennett NAS - or NRAS, as most of the action was Navy Reserve by then.) Powered by a Johnson small block 35. Flew in AMA Senior; quite low scores. So, I guess that puts the kit Magician before 1960. Same "nose-guy" on the plans for the kit as on the scanned copy in this thread...

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #23 on:** January 13, 2014, 11:17:20 PM »

I think my Magician weighed 36 ounces powered by a Tower 40. It might have weighed 32ounces. Walter Umland wing kit. Enlarged the elevator and stab about 30% and moved it back a few inches. Increased flap width a 1/2". Moveable flaps. Excellent flier.Light feel on the controls. Handled the weather well. In Philly we're used to weird winds and sprinkles. Suffice to say, I kept flying in conditions where others thought better of it. The Magician went through the breezes with little problem. Bellcrank pulled out at the NATs. Too bad. I was feeling it!

Probably my best flying plane ever. Out flew the various Vectors, Orientals and Tanagers, I flew in the past. One of those lucky combos.